Why are conservatives so pretentious?

[Klingsor]

That’s overly simplified saying that it was just workers fighting and ignores the Ford Motor Company doing this willingly.

It's true, I ignored the actions of a single company. Are you citing them as typical?

As for the Government being just as good as the private sector i give you the VA, the Postal Service, AMTRAK, and of course the war on poverty which is spent trillions of dollars and has pretty much done nothing to stop poverty.

Millions upon millions of people have relied on the VA, the Postal Service, and AMTRAK for decades. None of these agencies have spotless records, but each has provided a tremendous amount of valuable service. Maybe for-profit private enterprise could step in and replace them with better results at lower cost, but I don't see that as the foregone conclusion you seem to argue.

 

[creek47]

It's true, I ignored the actions of a single company. Are you citing them as typical?



Millions upon millions of people have relied on the VA, the Postal Service, and AMTRAK for decades. None of these agencies have spotless records, but each has provided a tremendous amount of valuable service. Maybe for-profit private enterprise could step in and replace them with better results at lower cost, but I don't see that as the foregone conclusion you seem to argue.

It has to start somewhere and Ford started it. You can’t deny one and then put all the credit on another?

The VA is in terrible condition. It is a disagrace that three administrations have failed to address the problems of that organization. I work for the government, do you know how hard it is to fire a government employee?

I give you FedEx and UPS as an example of what private sector can do compared to government.

 

[Klingsor]

That’s where I’m going with this, no law would of prevented this massacre because of all of the failures by law enforcement. The laws in the books right now should stopped Cruz from ever obtaining his weapons. However law enforcement on many levels failed! More so, the responding Law Endorcement used tactics that have been removed from use since the Columbine Massacre. The officers obviously were not well trained as they used the set up the perimeter method and wait for SWAT which was the preferred method from 1966-1999. Since 1999 it was the direct to threat method.

I would like to know what specific law that is not on the books now, would of stopped with massacre.

Again, you use this single incident as the basis for deciding what should or should not be done on a larger scale. If you're saying more effort should be made to ensure that existing laws are followed and that law enforcement officers are held to account, I completely agree. But that doesn't preclude legislation that may help prevent future tragedies--whether or not it might have prevented this one.

 

[creek47]

Again, you use this single incident as the basis for deciding what should or should not be done on a larger scale. If you're saying more effort should be made to ensure that existing laws are followed and that law enforcement officers are held to account, I completely agree. But that doesn't preclude legislation that may help prevent future tragedies--whether or not it might have prevented this one.

And I’ll ask, what new laws? I don’t believe that new laws are needed but enforcing existing laws. In fact the reason why I believe many like new laws is it shows that we’re doing something. It doesn’t mean anything gets done but it makes us feel better.

 

[Chrysippus]

I would like to know what specific law that is not on the books now, would of stopped with massacre

So let’s stop trying and just kill off humanity to prevent further murders. Just what you wanted—a specific remedy, no law required.

 

[Klingsor]

It has to start somewhere and Ford started it. You can’t deny one and then put all the credit on another?

I'm saying the struggles of workers' unions were indispensable for the gains you cite. For the most part, the profit motive alone was not enough to make private companies improve the lot of their workers so significantly.

The VA is in terrible condition. It is a disagrace that three administrations have failed to address the problems of that organization. I work for the government, do you know how hard it is to fire a government employee?

I'm all for reforming the VA. But that's not the same as privatizing it, or eliminating it entirely.

I give you FedEx and UPS as an example of what private sector can do compared to government.

And yet the Postal Service still has value. At least, our president tells us Amazon thinks so.

 

[creek47]

So let’s stop trying and just kill off humanity to prevent further murders. Just what you wanted—a specific remedy, no law required.

That doesn’t make sense, tell me what specifically would of stopped this massacre? Just throwing it out there, are we having a conversation to figure out a solution or are we talking just to talk.

 

[creek47]

I'm saying the struggles of workers' unions were indispensable for the gains you cite. For the most part, the profit motive alone was not enough to make private companies improve the lot of their workers so significantly.



I'm all for reforming the VA. But that's not the same as privatizing it, or eliminating it entirely.



And yet the Postal Service still has value. At least, our president tells us Amazon thinks so.

I would be all for privitizing the VA. Whatever the solution is the VA needs to be reformed and improved and it’s an embarrassment that former service members are treated so poorly.

 

[Klingsor]

I would be all for privitizing the VA. Whatever the solution is the VA needs to be reformed and improved and it’s an embarrassment that former service members are treated so poorly.

But it's also an embarrassment that our larger healthcare system, based on private insurance, has been such an economic disaster for so many people--both before and after the ACA. So what sort of privatization of the VA do you have in mind?

 

[creek47]

Allow a health insurance company to be contracted out, no way actually run the contract much like any company runs a contract.

 

[Klingsor]

And I’ll ask, what new laws? I don’t believe that new laws are needed but enforcing existing laws. In fact the reason why I believe many like new laws is it shows that we’re doing something. It doesn’t mean anything gets done but it makes us feel better.

I'm not sure what's wrong with feeling better, but let that go.

A number of proposals have floated around Congress in the wake of the Parkland shooting, including more stringent background checks, assault weapons and bump stock bans, a higher minimum age requirement, temporary court-ordered blocks on gun possession for those deemed dangerous, and cracking down one those who buy guns for others who can’t pass a background check.

Gun debate: Here are the proposals that Congress is considering

It's uncertain which if any of these proposals will become law, and no single measure--or all of them together--can guarantee perfect safety. But I suspect that implementing some of them would have a positive effect.

 

[Klingsor]

Allow a health insurance company to be contracted out, no way actually run the contract much like any company runs a contract.

For all I know, you may have your way before too long. Then we'll see the experiment play out.

 

[creek47]

I'm not sure what's wrong with feeling better, but let that go.

A number of proposals have floated around Congress in the wake of the Parkland shooting, including more stringent background checks, assault weapons and bump stock bans, a higher minimum age requirement, temporary court-ordered blocks on gun possession for those deemed dangerous, and cracking down one those who buy guns for others who can’t pass a background check.

Gun debate: Here are the proposals that Congress is considering

It's uncertain which if any of these proposals will become law, and no single measure--or all of them together--can guarantee perfect safety. But I suspect that implementing some of them would have a positive effect.

Ok, we already have an extensive background check for weapons. I would be in favor for closing the loop hole at gun shows but most gun dealers will always do every step. I myself have seen a gun owner refuse to sell even when a person passed a back ground check.

Assault Weapon? The AR-15 is not an assault weapon. The US has already banned automatic weapons and only certain people can own automatic weapons. Mostly companies and collectors own those types of weapons.

Florida from my understanding already had the ability to label Cruz so he couldn’t buy weapons. I have to do more research but I believe Florida already had the ability to confiscate weapons.

Raising the age of gun ownership is arbitrary. So a 18 year old can have a weapon in the military but can’t own one to Derwin’s themselves?

I would be much more interested in seeing what we can do to address society and how guns have been in society since the founding but only these mass shootings have really happened for the last 20-30 years.

 

[creek47]

For all I know, you may have your way before too long. Then we'll see the experiment play out.

Can’t do anything worse than what has been done recently

 

[Klingsor]

Can’t do anything worse than what has been done recently

We'll see if enough people--or enough of the right people--agree with that premise to make it happen.

 

[creek47]

When Bethesda has mold in the building, in multiple buildings and that is supposed to be the best military hospital in the nation we have a major issue.

 

[Chrysippus]

That doesn’t make sense, tell me what specifically would of stopped this massacre? Just throwing it out there, are we having a conversation to figure out a solution or are we talking just to talk.

Nor does asking for one specific law to stop a massacre make any sense. Unless you’re just asking a rhetorical question to which you expect no real answer. Just throwing it out there—Why bother?

 

[creek47]

Nor does asking for one specific law to stop a massacre make any sense. Unless you’re just asking a rhetorical question to which you expect no real answer. Just throwing it out there—Why bother?

So what would of stopped the massacre? Or are we talking just to talk?

 

[Klingsor]

Ok, we already have an extensive background check for weapons. I would be in favor for closing the loop hole at gun shows but most gun dealers will always do every step. I myself have seen a gun owner refuse to sell even when a person passed a back ground check.

People being what they are, I'm betting there are more than a few gun dealers who are not so conscientious.

Assault Weapon? The AR-15 is not an assault weapon.

I'm OK with calling it "Fred," then. In any case, I'd just as soon people didn't have them.

Florida from my understanding already had the ability to label Cruz so he couldn’t buy weapons. I have to do more research but I believe Florida already had the ability to confiscate weapons.

The proposals I referenced are from Congress and hence would apply nationally. And I imagine federal officials would be more strict about enforcement than the state of Florida.

Raising the age of gun ownership is arbitrary. So a 18 year old can have a weapon in the military but can’t own one to Derwin’s themselves?

I believe "Derwining yourself" is a thread in a whole other forum.

Any age restriction--voting, alcohol, consent--is arbitrary when it comes to a specific number. But the principle of "older and wiser" remains valid whenever you talk about raising the age.

By the way, Cruz was 19.

I would be much more interested in seeing what we can do to address society and how guns have been in society since the founding but only these mass shootings have really happened for the last 20-30 years.

Absolutely, I'm right there with you. But it isn't either/or--the problem is large enough to tackle on multiple fronts. And if, for whatever reason, people are more likely to abuse guns these days, that's an argument for more restricted access.

 

[Chrysippus]

So what would of stopped the massacre? Or are we talking just to talk?

You’re the one talking just to talk.
You can ask others “what would of stopped the massacre?“ but what one specific law do you suggest?