Why are people so angry about circumcision

[D_Mephistophiles Scatlicker]

At the risk of people thinking I have to have the last word, I will say one more thing then quit reviewing this thread. If I have made one person think twice about letting his son, his nephew, his cousin or his brother be circumcised, I have reached my objective today. If not, I'll keep trying in other media. To those who agree with me, please do "keep this flapjack on the grill". To you Brits, that's "stupid American" for keep the fires burning.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

All the way to the bottom, Maggie...
This thread started out fine with comments from the OP and the first posts from hilaire, seaside, Slant and the always insightful Bbucko who tried to save the thread with another wise post (plus a few others and I apologize if your name wasn't mentioned). However, the demonic cries of mutilation, amputation and disfigurement are starting to roost. That calls out the rest of the other kooks and now the infectious clucking of chicken headed, anti-circumcision rhetoric is starting to take over the thread even after several sincere tries to prevent it.

Thanks for fucking up another thread, guys.

 

[D_Jurgen Klitgaard]

I love my penis. It's cut, but not too much that the skin gets too tight. I think it looks good too, and I'm generally happy with it (Could be bigger though, lol). I've never been upset or felt like I was mutilated or wasn't "whole". I haven't had foreskin to know the difference, so it doesn't concern me or even enter my mind. It's not like it was stolen from me last week in the middle of the night, so no reason for me to be pissed off about it. My dick works and sex feels great. I have enough skin though that I can masturbate without lotion or lube.

I've got more important things in my life to worry about than to be pissed off and hold a grudge against my parents for making the choice they did and not give me the choice as an adult. No hatred from me!

 

[mandoman]

You can just call it what it is... circumcision.
You don't have to call it amputation or any other word that heightens and agitates fear. You choose to do it and you know exactly why you do it so let's not pretend.

Look up amputation in the dictionary. Look up mutilation. I stay away from them exactly because they have the opposite effect of what I am trying to do, which is to have people communicate rationally. But, on the other hand, the words exactly describe the action which has occurred. If you don't believe that a part of you was amputated, well, why do you have a scar? Where did the foreskin everyone is born with go?
It is not my intent to monger fear, nor do I want to incur your hatred.
But the truth is that you have had your foreskin amputated, and your penis is not exactly factory setting.
You believe it is separate, but equal. I'm OK with that. Since most sex is in the brain and not in the organ, I can no more judge what you feel, than you can judge what I feel. But unaltered, it is not.
amputate:
to remove by or as if by cutting
mutilation:
to cut up or alter radically
Sorry if you object to what happened to you, but these words are a realistic description of what occurs during every circumcision.

 

[Charles Finn]

as long as we have women saying they like it better here in this country we will always have cut cocks

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Look up amputation in the dictionary. Look up mutilation. I stay away from them exactly because they have the opposite effect of what I am trying to do, which is to have people communicate rationally. But, on the other hand, the words exactly describe the action which has occurred. If you don't believe that a part of you was amputated, well, why do you have a scar? Where did the foreskin everyone is born with go?

Looks like someone understands.
The context of the message from some anti-circumcisionists is where the hostility and hatred is contained. When they repeatedly refer to the removal of foreskin through nothing but synonymous words that can be twisted to portray the illusion of abnormality, their intentions to smear and attack are exposed. Really, how difficult is it to refer to the medical procedure by its actual name? That is, of course, if having an honest discussion was their goal?

It is not my intent to monger fear, nor do I want to incur your hatred. But the truth is that you have had your foreskin amputated, and your penis is not exactly factory setting.

Doesn't matter. It works fine, my sex is great and I laugh at anyone who thinks my equipment is somehow flawed because my parents were doing something that they honestly thought would be in my best interest. If my parents didn't love me, they wouldn't of had me. I would have been aborted or given up for adoption with no chance of tracing them in the future. Also, there's no way I can miss something I never had. Many other things define me as a male before I get to my penis... which BTW I receive absolutely no complaints on but I digress.

I equate the continued attacks on circumcised people and their supposed loss of sensation, inability to have sex "properly" and all that other madness to a middle school level, childish berating of boys in a locker room taking a group shower. People who tend to be insecure about their own penis and its functions will most likely make fun of other people's "junk". That's why I find some of the zealous comments made by people vehemently against circumcision to be laughable.

Since most sex is in the brain and not in the organ, I can no more judge what you feel, than you can judge what I feel. But unaltered, it is not.
amputate:
to remove by or as if by cutting
mutilation:
to cut up or alter radically
Sorry if you object to what happened to you, but these words are a realistic description of what occurs during every circumcision.

I don't see it that way at all.
I was circumcised. I wasn't mutilated because I didn't lose the mass majority of my length or penis size (implicating an radical altercation as listed by your definition). Amputation has been spun so many times to have a negative slant on this discussion that I scoff at people who refer to it. But regardless of what we choose to call the procedure, context is the most important thing here. Hatred seeps out in the most diplomatic and prettiest of statements.

 

[Snozzle]

as long as we have women saying they like it better here in this country we will always have cut cocks

But when they become rare, women will stop saying that (just as men say they prefer cut women in countries where that is customary, but not here). We may have passed the tipping point already, if the latest report, that it is now in the minority, is true. There goes the lockerroom argument. The same study found a post-neonatal rate of 0.08%, and if that is true, there goes "do it now, he'll only have to have it done later".

I think Charles nailed the OP's question it in #6 "when you take away part of MY dick without MY consent I get mad".

Why the pro-cut side gets mad beats me.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

But when they become rare, women will stop saying that (just as men say they prefer cut women in countries where that is customary, but not here). We may have passed the tipping point already, if the latest report, that it is now in the minority, is true. There goes the lockerroom argument. The same study found a post-neonatal rate of 0.08%, and if that is true, there goes "do it now, he'll only have to have it done later".

I think Charles nailed the OP's question it in #6 "when you take away part of MY dick without MY consent I get mad".

Why the pro-cut side gets mad beats me.

It's already been explained countless times on this thread.
Anti-cut men have gone through great lengths to make cut men on this board feel inadequate and deficient. And for what? The pursuit of more sexual partners that like uncut men because it certainly isn't just about the children as you just exposed? Seriously, I'm sick of hearing that argument in politics and in adult level discussions where it really doesn't concern them. In many ways it is intellectually dishonest and doesn't take into account most people's real motives. But I digress...

This thread is another example. Twelve posts of good discussion between people from various angles, and then comes the chants of the rabidly obsessed with these indirect claims of genital malfunction, the bashing of Jewish traditions and the unwarranted attack on the sanity of people who he feels are against his ideologies. Was that really necessary? Your argument reeks of assimilation as well. I hope that's not where you're going with your assessment of eliminating the "locker room argument", but you'd be fooling yourself if you think a good majority of locker room angst will stop between young boys and male adults if everyone in the world was required to have foreskin. Perhaps if people were more interested in improving attitudes & morale instead of competing all of the time, then LPSG wouldn't need nearly 89 circumcision threads to express the same regurgitated hate over and over again?

 

[Daisy]

One of the things that my ex husband and I could never understand is this..why we are in the minority. I mean we are American, white, middle class, educated and what you would call typical suburban people. So WHY do so few parents just like us think it's some sort of radical hippy decision?. The dad IS cut and even he, who is fairly conservative said "no way, we are leaving him intact". I do not understand why this is considered so unusual. There was never any question or debate for either of us. It just seemed wrong to have him surgically altered and yet I got so much shit from people saying that he'd be ostracized for it. Or he'd feel inadequate when he see's his fathers penis. Or how it looks better cut!! I mean things that make no sense. So I am with Snozzle, I don't get why the pro side gets heated. I mean this is not like I'm having the kid tattoo'd or getting him a nose job. Leaving it alone is natural, it's not child abuse!

 

[DaveyR]

One of the things that my ex husband and I could never understand is this..why we are in the minority. I mean we are American, white, middle class, educated and what you would call typical suburban people. So WHY do so few parents just like us think it's some sort of radical hippy decision?. The dad IS cut and even he, who is fairly conservative said "no way, we are leaving him intact". I do not understand why this is considered so unusual. There was never any question or debate for either of us. It just seemed wrong to have him surgically altered and yet I got so much shit from people saying that he'd be ostracized for it. Or he'd feel inadequate when he see's his fathers penis. Or how it looks better cut!! I mean things that make no sense. So I am with Snozzle, I don't get why the pro side gets heated. I mean this is not like I'm having the kid tattoo'd or getting him a nose job. Leaving it alone is natural, it's not child abuse!

I don't get why you would tell them in the first place. It really would be none of their business.

 

[Daisy]

It's not like I go around announcing it but has come up a few times in the mommy circles. This kinda thing gets discussed at play groups. I probably shouldnt tell anyone but then again I don't want to feel like I'm hiding it like a dirty little secret.

 

[Snozzle]

It's already been explained countless times on this thread.
Anti-cut men have gone through great lengths to make cut men on this board feel inadequate and deficient.

What makes you think it's all about you and your feelings? Nobody should put anyone down for having had a body modification they didn't choose, but basic facts won't be quiet.

And for what? The pursuit of more sexual partners that like uncut men because it certainly isn't just about the children as you just exposed?

It's about the children and the men they will grow up to be.

Seriously, I'm sick of hearing that argument in politics and in adult level discussions where it really doesn't concern them. In many ways it is intellectually dishonest and doesn't take into account most people's real motives. But I digress...

This thread is another example. Twelve posts of good discussion between people from various angles, and then comes the chants of the rabidly obsessed with these indirect claims of genital malfunction, the bashing of Jewish traditions and the unwarranted attack on the sanity of people who he feels are against his ideologies. Was that really necessary?

This has so little connection with the reality of what has gone before that it's impossible to formulate a sensible answer.

Your argument reeks of assimilation as well. I hope that's not where you're going with your assessment of eliminating the "locker room argument", but you'd be fooling yourself if you think a good majority of locker room angst will stop between young boys and male adults if everyone in the world was required to have foreskin.

What an extraordinary expression for "if everyone in the world's genitals were just left alone"! (As most men in the world's genitals are.) Assimilation? Huh? Of whom? By what? Sure, kids will find excuses to tease kids, and adults will compare their assets, but that's no justification for having parts cut off to make them match others.

Perhaps if people were more interested in improving attitudes & morale instead of competing all of the time, then LPSG wouldn't need nearly 89 circumcision threads to express the same regurgitated hate over and over again?

I'm very interested in improving the morale of intact guys who get slurs like "anteater" and "elephant trunk" and "cheese dick" just for having what they were born with.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

It's not like I go around announcing it but has come up a few times in the mommy circles. This kinda thing gets discussed at play groups. I probably shouldnt tell anyone but then again I don't want to feel like I'm hiding it like a dirty little secret.

Seaside, stay away from those "Mommy Circles". They are undermining the patriarchy! :smile:

 

[eurotop40]

... Or how it looks better cut!! ...

Quite honestly, the more circumcision scars and inner foreskins remnants I see, the more I think that looks ugly too...

 

[B_VinylBoy]

What makes you think it's all about you and your feelings? Nobody should put anyone down for having had a body modification they didn't choose, but basic facts won't be quiet.

First off, what part about "and it goes both ways" did you want to ignore from my last statement in order to come up with some nonsense to suggest that my views were one sided?

It's about the children and the men they will grow up to be.

And that has a LOT more to do with how they were raised by their parents and the role models they identify themselves with. Not by their dick size or lack of foreskin. That is, unless, you really want to put that poisonous thought into the mind of young kids or allow some other insecure schmuck to implant that incredulous thought into his brain and leave it to fester without any parental insight.

This has so little connection with the reality of what has gone before that it's impossible to formulate a sensible answer.

In other words, you can't come up with a rhetorical answer to refute so you go on the mindless defensive and say that my beliefs have no concept of reality... as if reality is the exact same thing for every single person in the world. When you wake up in the morning, you do not see the same exact things as I and vice versa. That means out perceptions of reality differ from the time we open our eyes even if there is overlap. How ignorant of you to formulate such a ridiculous comment.

What an extraordinary expression for "if everyone in the world's genitals were just left alone"! (As most men in the world's genitals are.) Assimilation? Huh? Of whom? By what? Sure, kids will find excuses to tease kids, and adults will compare their assets, but that's no justification for having parts cut off to make them match others.

And there's no reason to force kids to keep their foreskins in order to make them the same either. Not every parent decides to get their boy circumcised for the shallow reasons many of the other anti-Circs have mentioned. However, if we only went by the tripe that came out of your mouth you'd tend to think that parents who believe in the procedure are all demons. Too bad I know that mine were not so I would never fault them for getting me cut as an infant. But that's just me and my reality speaking. You know, the one you deny because everyone has to see it your way?

I'm very interested in improving the morale of intact guys who get slurs like "anteater" and "elephant trunk" and "cheese dick" just for having what they were born with.

Again, what party of "it goes both ways" did you voluntarily ignore from my last comments? If you'd like to know, I've been in three long term & committed relationships with men since I came out of the closet. Two of the men (and my current) are cut. My first one was uncut. Let me tell you firsthand that I don't care either way and I know all of the stupid names zealots call each other from both ends. You improve the morale of yourself (and your cut or uncut boy) by giving them several other ways to identify their masculinity and empower themselves that go beyond the look or status of their penis. Try it sometime.

 

[D_Edwin Eatser]

I find that to be part of what is wrong in these threads not just saying things but then also slamming an entire culture or religion.

just say you like being circed or you like not being or even that you don't like being circed or not circed but stop the hatred it makes it a fail on convincing people of an arguement for or against. Same happened looking at the news with the antimosque woman screaming and hating I won't even bother listening to anything she might say cause she's so full of hate.

I make no apologies for hating some barbaric religions - not for their beliefs in general, but for their desire to impose patriarchal control by insisting, in the name of their 'god' that their male (and heaven forfend!) many of their female followers are subject to infant mutilation. I hate the religions, not their followers. As a pagan I have been on the receiving end of plenty of hate from members of the religions in question, so it's not all one-sided.

I suppose you think the Aztecs were OK to go in for mass human sacrifice? If not, the problem is only one of degree, not principle. All violence against the person should be condemned.

If you want self-mutilation as an adult, well, go ahead. But don't inflict it on infants, or stand idly by while other do. Speak out! That's the difference between civilised people and barbarians.

 

[Hoss]

to those who have responded to my initial post and kept on track, thanks:smile:. To those who keep saying mutilate and barbaric and ignorant and arrogant, that is why I had made this thread because those words are offensive and don't help either side.

I have asked the on duty moderators to close this if they can. If not, I leave it to all of you, I won't post in this thread again you've successfully destroyed what could have been a good discussion.

 

[D_Edwin Eatser]

to those who have responded to my initial post and kept on track, thanks:smile:. To those who keep saying mutilate and barbaric and ignorant and arrogant, that is why I had made this thread because those words are offensive and don't help either side.

I have asked the on duty moderators to close this if they can. If not, I leave it to all of you, I won't post in this thread again you've successfully destroyed what could have been a good discussion.

A great way of not facing up to the facts when they don't suit you! Well done!

 

[herkimer snow]

You expected a good discussion on circumcision on this site? What a dreamer!

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

You expected a good discussion on circumcision on this site? What a dreamer!

Well no to be fair he expected (not unreasonably) that a good discussion of why people get so angry about the topic of circumcision might take place. The difference is that circumcision itself was not the central point of discussion, but people's extreme reactions to it's discussion.