Why becauseI'm a black man!?

B_VinylBoy

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It isn't?

Just what do you think constitutes "disorderly conduct" in Cambridge?

When I lived there, making a persistent and noisy jerk of oneself on a public street qualified. Enough to be arrested, but generally not enough to be charged. I gather things haven't changed much in the last couple of decades, as that is what seems to have happened in l'affaire Gates.

I was born and raised in Boston and still have plenty of family there. I've been to Cambridge plenty of times to know that you're not arrested just for yelling.

You said it yourself... "persistent". Perhaps if Gates was at home, making loud noises that disrupted the neighbors for a lengthy period of time (such as having a loud party after regular hours) then maybe you'd have a point. However, Gates wasn't doing that. He was yelling at a cop from his home and I'm sure it wasn't for a "persistent" period of time.

Now, was Gates being a jerk? Perhaps... but there's no law in any book that says you can be arrested for being an asshole. If that was the case, everyone in America would have a criminal record because I know everyone on this board can get snide and sarcastic when provoked. This is probably the only thing that Gates is technically guilty of. And considering the circumstances I would have an attitude as well.

In all honesty, it's rather disturbing to see people even try to validate the actions of the Cambridge Police in this case. What started out as a routine call turned into an obvious abuse of authority, and instead of demanding that our public workers conduct their jobs on a higher scale we're trying to associate fault on a 58 year old man for "mouthing off".

No wonder cops get away with murder. :rolleyes:
 

B_cigarbabe

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Cue: Stronzo

hysterics ensue.

Oh please.
Why mention Stronzo's name?
Big E you should know it isn't that simple even if you look "whitish" as I do. I have been arrested for "creating" less disturbance than Dr. Gates did and yes it was in the same area.
C.B.:saevil:
 
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AllHazzardi

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I was born and raised in Boston and still have plenty of family there. I've been to Cambridge plenty of times to know that you're not arrested just for yelling.

You said it yourself... "persistent". Perhaps if Gates was at home, making loud noises that disrupted the neighbors for a lengthy period of time (such as having a loud party after regular hours) then maybe you'd have a point. However, Gates wasn't doing that. He was yelling at a cop from his home and I'm sure it wasn't for a "persistent" period of time.

Now, was Gates being a jerk? Perhaps... but there's no law in any book that says you can be arrested for being an asshole. If that was the case, everyone in America would have a criminal record because I know everyone on this board can get snide and sarcastic when provoked. This is probably the only thing that Gates is technically guilty of. And considering the circumstances I would have an attitude as well.

In all honesty, it's rather disturbing to see people even try to validate the actions of the Cambridge Police in this case. What started out as a routine call turned into an obvious abuse of authority, and instead of demanding that our public workers conduct their jobs on a higher scale we're trying to associate fault on a 58 year old man for "mouthing off".

No wonder cops get away with murder. :rolleyes:

I don't exonerate the police of their failures, but I also don't exonerate Gates from his failures either. You would think a person who really cares about being a police officer could've told the difference between the situation at hand and the one he was trained for, and you would think a person of Gates' age would have been better at controlling his temper. I don't think these things should stain future activity either; this is just one situation where both people happened to take their self-obligated daily screw-up at the same place at the same time. But regardless of the null impact it should have, we can still learn from the situation, if we don't do that, we're not being very human.
 

invisibleman

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Henry Gates could take a few tips from Bob Dylan next time.

Note to all people bLk or wHt or Tween treat the cops with respect and you'll have no problem.


I think there is a fine line between respect and disrespect though if you wear a police uniform and badge because of the individual who wears it. A police officer has a lot more power over the American civilian.

Henry Gates could take a few tips from Bob Dylan...but do you REALLY think that Henry Gates will?

Do you think that Stephen Hawking could take a few tips from Michael Jackson and Daft Punk? :smile:

Do you think that Maya Angelou could take a few tips from Natalie Bedingfield? :eek:

And what does that say about the US educational system when college professors begin taking tips from songwriters? :rolleyes:





 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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And teachers don't? :rolleyes:

Nobody will disagree that a little kindness goes a long way. But to suggest that it always works is not true at all.

Consider yourself lucky. If this was in a different neighborhood with different cops, the result could have been much more severe. For instance, you could have been surrounded by several cop cars. They could have demanded you to put your hands up or lay down on the ground. Or they could have just grabbed you and threw you against a wall or on the ground in an attempt to "control the situation" before they even explain why they're approaching you. All for what... because you told someone to not talk on their phone in a movie theater and he called the Police? And let's not act like this doesn't happen in our country, or even in your own neighborhood.

We as civilians have to take into consideration that there are people out there that abuse their authority, and because of that we adjust our lives so we don't have to experience that. Because of that, we inadvertently excuse the cops who do such things and look at the civilian as the nuisance. Gates did nothing but yell and get snide with a few remarks. Perhaps Cambridge should be hiring cops that aren't so caught up in their own importance that they can take verbal lashings from a 58 year old man?


oh dude i did my habds were i was against the wall they checked me for weapons the whole 9 yards. I could have been pissed and rightfully so but they get a call they have to find out whats going on thats not harasmaent. I know better than to fuck with the police. thats battle i'm never going to win.



And teachers don't? :rolleyes:

theres a hugeference between a teacher and and harvard professor.
 

B_VinylBoy

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oh dude i did my habds were i was against the wall they checked me for weapons the whole 9 yards. I could have been pissed and rightfully so but they get a call they have to find out whats going on thats not harasmaent. I know better than to fuck with the police. thats battle i'm never going to win.

theres a hugeference between a teacher and and harvard professor.

No comment... :rolleyes: :biggrin1:
 

AllHazzardi

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I think there is a fine line between respect and disrespect though if you wear a police uniform and badge because of the individual who wears it. A police officer has a lot more power over the American civilian.

Henry Gates could take a few tips from Bob Dylan...but do you REALLY think that Henry Gates will?

Do you think that Stephen Hawking could take a few tips from Michael Jackson and Daft Punk? :smile:

Do you think that Maya Angelou could take a few tips from Natalie Bedingfield? :eek:

And what does that say about the US educational system when college professors begin taking tips from songwriters? :rolleyes:

Apparently you didn't read the article; Bob Dylan found himself in a similar situation due to officers who did not know who he was, played it calm, and resolved it without any issues.

In other words, maybe a person who has difficulties dealing with officers because he lost his cool could take a few tips for that situation from someone who didn't.


And even beyond the fact it was meant as satire or as if it's a problem, I wouldn't mind if a few college professors took some tips from songwriters and performers. A classroom that is not interesting to learners will be ineffective, troublesome, and stressful, and how to avoid that could be gleaned from people in the performing industry. Different profession, Different activity, different science(meaning directed focus into verifiable understanding of a particular thing), but useful nonetheless. After all, if education is your goal, obviously song writers and celebrities are doing something right, as most people can remember or learn information from a movie, song, or TV show better than information from a boring professor in a high-stress high-workload environment which is forced to rush through content and not show sufficient application to have students learn the content rather than memorize it.
 

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I live in Hong Kong, several years ago I was in LA and had parked apparently illegally facng the wrong side of the road down a side street, well away from any major roads. Now, what does this matter? I was just parked!! It was nowhere in nowhere!! Yet this Policeman arrives out of nowhere, telling me that I was breaking the law!! I'm English and was with my Chinese assistant, so this wasn't racial profiling, just high-minded pettiness!!! He really wanted to book us, but I guess after arguing the fact realised it would be too much work for him, and let us off with a warning!! Quite different to when we both drove down to Mexico and were picked up by the corrupt cops there for simply drinking a beer on the street from a bar!! They shook us down for $100 each!!!
 

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All (or most of) the above arguments seem to conveniently glide over two important things.

1. The documented existence of racial profiling. and
2. The historically cultural settings (and the related issues: race, gender, location, wealth, etc.) which may influence how each and every one of us may or may not react in such a situation.

Are we to conclude from the above arguments that Dylan acted more correctly than Gates, or that he had less reason to act as Gates did?

If we're suggesting that he had just as much reason (by way of his fame), can we assume it to be the same as reason (by way of position coupled with race)?

How do we asses which is the greater or lesser basis for a potential reaction. Which more valid or invalid? Justifiable or not?

How do we factor in personality and extenuating circumstances (such as one being in one's own home while the other in the streets of an unfamiliar neighborhood)?

Is not a comparison of the Dylan and Gates incidents like comparing apples to oranges?
 
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D_Humper E Bogart

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They ARE police y'know. You want people with firearms to respect you, hang around with soldiers.

As it is, sometimes acting innocent is the easiest way to confess guilt in the eyes of some lawmakers, and I've seen the results first hand. Also, Big E is a huge white guy. I believe his intimidation level would raise to defcon 1 levels if he was a negro!
 

D_Mylor Mentallydaft

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In all honesty, it's rather disturbing to see people even try to validate the actions of the Cambridge Police in this case. What started out as a routine call turned into an obvious abuse of authority, and instead of demanding that our public workers conduct their jobs on a higher scale we're trying to associate fault on a 58 year old man for "mouthing off".

No wonder cops get away with murder. :rolleyes:


no one was validating the 1 Cambridge police officer's actions, lets not stereotype, and YES seriously i know they jumped to defend their buddy before they knew what happened, but if its ok for the president to do it it's ok for them, I would and you would. PERSONALLY if you look at the thing objectivly BOTH of their initial reactions were valid and then as it continued to get more and more out of hand it just became a test of wills, putting both the flat foot and the scholar in the principal’s office.

cop's learn that if something is odd or out of place then MOST/NOT ALL of the time it merits a look, it's what they're paid for. Be objective and realistic, a black man trying to jimmy a lock in that house on that street looks rare and out of place, like a young ken doll white boy on the southside handing candy to a group of young kids from his new mini cooper. Did the prof. or the pig step over the line first, i dunno neither do you. What WE KNOW IS that as he policeman tried to walk/slither away the was followed by a man being an asshole, which you are 100% on the nose, perfectly legal, BUT, screaming obscenities (as ONE of the dozen statements i heard said) IS... so there was no authority abused, he just exercised it, when he was pushed. the doc may have had every right to do it, but he pushed, and pushed infront of a crowd and other officers, and pushing that badge is a loose loose, every time. 2 grown ass men got into poking fight, period......

and yes cops can slip by with alot, but some times they can't. A cop in clayton co GA pulled a over weight black woman over and she was (and caught on video) belligerent with him and he called her "oprah"..... obvious his undertones but still, not exactly an insult, he was fired for misconduct (in cop talk, he had to find an new career) for calling her a celebrity's name.... if she had been white and he called her roseanne the badge polisher would be out lighting flares right now, the very Cambridge cop is humiliated and a joke, and if he dosen't kill him self he'll wind up sheriff of a parking garage....... all over 2 grown men acting like children
 

D_Mylor Mentallydaft

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oh dude i did my habds were i was against the wall they checked me for weapons the whole 9 yards. I could have been pissed and rightfully so but they get a call they have to find out whats going on thats not harasmaent. I know better than to fuck with the police. thats battle i'm never going to win.

the police in this town know me, they know i was a punk ass kid and they know i'm a vet, and a green beret and always armed. and these 6"5 300lbs bubba's see 6"1 220 of me and they either wanna treat me like i just killed 10 guys with a gem clip or they wanna handcuff me, and try and provoke me to fight. STILL, no sentence leaves my mouth that dosen't end in sir, and i keep my hands on my chest if they aren't cuffed.

Its the cobie oshie maru, no win situation. and my dad was a cop, my uncle was a cop, his 2 sons are cops, my 2'd and 3d female cousins were cops,my grandma was a C.O and my mom was a radio dispatcher...... they have all had the shit worn out of em by women smaller that one of BIG_E's ankles, BIG_E could break a man's arms and back like nothing, i can pick AND slip a pair of cuffs and i can cripple or kill a man, they are afraid .... but still in control, as ron white said "i dunno how many of em it'd take to whip my ass but i know how many they are gonna bring" so why fight em? as frustrating as it can be, its like getting mad at the rain, stomp and kick all you like, you’re still gonna get wet.
 

B_VinylBoy

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Are we really trying this hard to find a critique?
First off, axlx2009, I'm not stereotype all cops in my post. The last line is nothing more than a sarcastic remark regarding how many people with authority get away with doing stuff that other regular people wouldn't.

Secondly... why don't you take the color bias out of your statements here. Seriously...
"A black man trying to jimmy a lock in that house on that street looks rare and out of place"
a young ken doll white boy on the southside handing candy to a group of young kids from his new mini cooper

What would be the difference if it was a "white man" trying to break into a home, or a nicely dressed Asian man trying to tempt children into his car with candy? You make it sound as if these crimes are somehow "more dangerous" if particular types of people, based on skin color, do them. And you say I'm stereotyping? :rolleyes:

Unless a person breaks a law, police are not to arrest them. Gates didn't break any laws. He got mouthy with a policeman, which is not a crime in the state of Massachusetts (as far as I know). Was it stupid of Gates to do that? Of course, we all agree that Gates could have conducted himself better. But here lays the problem... if the cop wanted to get nasty & verbal with Gates he could do that with practically no consequence. The cop could be completely in the wrong, and it still wouldn't matter. He's the one with the gun... you honestly think anyone, unarmed, is going to give a cop abusing authority any real drama to deal with?

The cop, himself, even stated that Gates was "lawfully" in his own home. Once he saw that, along with his Harvard University ID, THAT should have been the end of it. Of course, nobody can say something to the police that is inflammatory in nature. So, when Gates kept mouthing off after proving that he was doing nothing wrong, he had every right to be "arrested", right? (sarcasm intended here)

We do things, like act civil to Policemen when they enter into a scene, because morally we know it's the right thing to do. But beyond the moral argument, there's the actual law. We can question people's morals all day. I won't because I'm sure many people would look at all of us being posters on a message board for big dicks and think we have none at all. But people who focus on the actions of Gates to find fault are looking at issues through a moralistic lens because he committed no unlawful crime.

The cop abused his authority. That's a more serious issue than anyone yelling insults out of their own home. At least I think so...
 

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All (or most of) the above arguments seem to conveniently glide over two important things.

1. The documented existence of racial profiling. and
2. The historically cultural settings (and the related issues: race, gender, location, wealth, etc.) which may influence how each and every one of us may or may not react in such a situation.

Are we to conclude from the above arguments that Dylan acted more correctly than Gates, or that he had less reason to act as Gates did?

If we're suggesting that he had just as much reason (by way of his fame), can we assume it to be the same as reason (by way of position coupled with race)?

How do we asses which is the greater or lesser basis for a potential reaction. Which more valid or invalid? Justifiable or not?

How do we factor in personality and extenuating circumstances (such as one being in one's own home while the other in the streets of an unfamiliar neighborhood)?

Is not a comparison of the Dylan and Gates incidents like comparing apples to oranges?


1. Part of the whole function of racial profiling relies on the individual reacting in a negative manner. The entire action of profiling is done in a way to stimulate negative response, whether it be for a traffic violation and a "random" search, or interacting with an individual on the street. When you fight back, you're falling into the trap. If you are innocent, then profess that and be cooperative the entire time. If they're corrupt enough to plant or manipulate evidence, they're foolish enough to get caught.

2. Regardless of cultural or historical background, when you willfully live in a society, you are voluntarily giving those individuals which are selected to maintain safe operation of society the power they wield. To prevent this from being too vulnerable of a forbearance, we as a culture have a long history of civil disobedience- If you think you are right and within your rights, you have every freedom to stand your ground. You do NOT have a freedom to berate, assault, or harm others; those acts are in violation of the basic principle of equality of pursuit of happiness. You can reject an order, but if you remain peaceful, you are treated as such. If you are within your rights and are unfairly treated, it is not you who ends up having the more severe punishment by society. If people just shrug it off, or always fight when they're being unfairly treated, it doesn't make that balance of consequence happen quite the same way.


Neither was more correct. They each chose to act the way they wanted to, or thought was better, and the results were very different. One situation was a much bigger snarl than the other, that is the only statement I would make about the two in unison.

We can tell which actions are justified by using a method of common interpretation; not by "majority" choice, but rather by the interpretation which is described by the common elements to all possible individual interpretations. In other words, the simplest interpretation which is common to all of the complexities of the individual interpretations. By using such a thing, we can effectively value, if you will, the justifiable response based on perpetration of an individual beyond the barrier of society's rules for their position. Both reactions were equally valid; the same choice was presented to both individuals, and they chose differently, so their results differed. One could just be said to be a lot less of a hassle than the other.

Honestly, if I were in his situation, given consideration regardless of race and claim, I would've been glad the officers showed up. In my mind, the image of an effective police officer is one who walks up and questions an individual trying to break into a home. If I were in Mr. Gates position, I likely would have turned to the officer and said I'm glad he showed up, told him that don't have my keys and I can't get in, and ask if he could help or call a locksmith. I'd act this way because, odds are, I can get the police to open the door for me. The reason they are likely to help is because one, I didn't immediately run away, and two, the first interaction was a request for assistance from the officer(pretty much his job). Act calmly, cooperate with requests for identity, and in most cases you'll be done before you know it and no worse for wear.

Neither was more correct or chose better, they went about things in different ways and the results were different. I will only maintain that one situation would be a lot less intrusive into free time or work time than the other.



- You know, I really don't get the phrase apples and oranges.... because they can be compared in SO many ways and are in fact fairly closely related in the grand scheme of things. Taken to an extreme extent, even very different objects can be considered very similar as they share any differences in common.
 

D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III

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One thing has nothing to do with the other. Had Bob been black he would probably have gotten patted down, cuffed, disrespected, and most likely would have rejoined his tour after being released from the hospital after having his head busted.


Not at all, all he was doing was walking down the street. the other was breaking in to a house. no law broken walking down the street. someone called the cops and said some one suspisious was walking down the street. hard to belive anyone would call the cops about a white man but thats just your own prejudice coming out.
 
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Group51

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Apparently you didn't read the article; Bob Dylan found himself in a similar situation due to officers who did not know who he was, played it calm, and resolved it without any issues.

You can't tell the difference between walking in the street and being inside YOUR OWN HOUSE? With proof that it's YOUR OWN HOUSE?

Or is that just an inconsequential detail to you?
 

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1. Part of the whole function of racial profiling relies on the individual reacting in a negative manner. The entire action of profiling is done in a way to stimulate negative response, whether it be for a traffic violation and a "random" search, or interacting with an individual on the street. When you fight back, you're falling into the trap. If you are innocent, then profess that and be cooperative the entire time. If they're corrupt enough to plant or manipulate evidence, they're foolish enough to get caught.

Ohh noo Hazzardi. And just when I was beginning to think you were (at least) an intelligently rational guy.

Are you suggesting that racial profiling exists solely for the purpose of getting that 18% minority of a certain population to entrap THEMSELVES 72% OF THE TIME??

...You being serious? Or are you just tryin' to fuck with us? lol

2. Regardless of cultural or historical background, when you willfully live in a society, you are voluntarily giving those individuals which are selected to maintain safe operation of society the power they wield. To prevent this from being too vulnerable of a forbearance, we as a culture have a long history of civil disobedience- If you think you are right and within your rights, you have every freedom to stand your ground. You do NOT have a freedom to berate, assault, or harm others; those acts are in violation of the basic principle of equality of pursuit of happiness. You can reject an order, but if you remain peaceful, you are treated as such. If you are within your rights and are unfairly treated, it is not you who ends up having the more severe punishment by society. If people just shrug it off, or always fight when they're being unfairly treated, it doesn't make that balance of consequence happen quite the same way.

I didn't quite get the tail end of that. But you seem to suggest here that any actions taken by "those individuals [who?] are selected to maintain safe operation of society" are justifiable if one resorts to "berating" said authority. To which I would ask, "Would more peaceful actions on the part of these high school students in Birmingham have resulted in the right course of action?" (see attached)

Honestly, if I were in his situation, given consideration regardless of race and claim, I would've been glad the officers showed up. In my mind, the image of an effective police officer is one who walks up and questions an individual trying to break into a home. If I were in Mr. Gates position, I likely would have turned to the officer and said I'm glad he showed up, told him that don't have my keys and I can't get in, and ask if he could help or call a locksmith. I'd act this way because, odds are, I can get the police to open the door for me. The reason they are likely to help is because one, I didn't immediately run away, and two, the first interaction was a request for assistance from the officer(pretty much his job). Act calmly, cooperate with requests for identity, and in most cases you'll be done before you know it and no worse for wear.

Most have already acknowledged that Gates could've handled the situation better. The gist of my question was (and remains) can the two situations (Gates and Dylan) be accurately compared to each other.

Neither was more correct or chose better, they went about things in different ways and the results were different. I will only maintain that one situation would be a lot less intrusive into free time or work time than the other.

- You know, I really don't get the phrase apples and oranges....

Ohh nooo...And just when I was beginning to think...
 

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Florida Boy

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Besides the good explanation that AllHazzardi

That's why we have people like our OP making threads acting as if all you have to do is have the "Yes sir, no sir" mentality towards Police and you won't be bothered. And anyone who grew up in the 'hood can tell you that sometimes that just doesn't cut it.

The times for "yes sir, no sir" has long since gone.
 

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You can't tell the difference between walking in the street and being inside YOUR OWN HOUSE? With proof that it's YOUR OWN HOUSE?

Or is that just an inconsequential detail to you?

Gates was not unfairly arrested for breaking and entering; his proof cleared him of that. It was his choices and actions which followed that resulted in being cuffed. Even if the police officer provoked Gates, it would've been Gates' response to provocation that caused the situation to evolve the way it did.

There's a fine line of difference between "Freedom of Speech" and "Verbal Assault".