Why do Obama and Clinton opose Wikileaks latest...

[lucky8]

Reads the leaks...especially the ones from the Sec. of State. It's gonna get interesting

 

[faceking]

Wow.. I need to find all the LPSG Obamabot postings on transparency. Where's the transparency now Barry?! Jus' asking...

 

[Big_Red]

Where in the Constitution does it say heads of state and diplomats shall not have a right to confidentiality and that it is the right of the people to full disclosure of all such matters?

And where in the Constitution does it state that said government officials DO have the unlimited right to secrecy?? Normal citizens don't have any constitutional right to secrecy, whatsoever. Yet, which group of people are defended, and which are not? The answer to this question determines whether we have a democracy in place. Or fascism.

And to what benefit has such disclosure served?

I think I just answered this question. Try democracy, for one. And enabling The People (remember them?) to make rational decisions based on accountability and the proper disclosure of information (which the government couldn't care less about).

Have the leaks enhanced the Saudi's position to act as either an ally or envoy in negotiating sensitive matters with the rest of the Muslim world, or has their ability to bridge that gap been severely diminished?

Honestly, who the fuck cares? Least of all, it's the Saudi Royal Family which cares about what the rest of the Islamic world thinks. I guess you figure that a full-blown WAR with Iran would've "bridged the gap" with the rest of the Muslim world. Please, PLEASE tell me I'm wrong!

Have the disclosures improved the relationships between world governments or have they harmed them? Have they built trust or destroyed it?

It's destroyed relationships and trust between the corrupt, unaccountable, THIEVING governments of the world and The People, and exposed the cockroad-ridden corporatocracy which lurks beneath. And thank God for that!

And finally, have the revelations made you feel any more secure in your "homeland"?

I feel perfectly safe and secure as I always have, as security and well-being are in the mind- at least in the First World. I don't see why I, or anyone else, should care about having a 1 in 30 million chance of being killed in a terrorist attack, when I have a 1 in 2 chance of dying by heart attack, a 2 in 5 chance of dying of cancer, and a 1 in 3,000 chance of dying by properly prescribed, dosed and consumed prescription drugs. Do I really need to give you the dying-by-lightning stats as well?

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The leaks make everyone look bad, which is why they are so damaging to the intricate workings of diplomatic relations and the interplay between the various factions concerned.

Take for instance people who may live in compromised locations, in other countries, who may be able to supply the U.S. government with vital intelligence on a plot, for example, to blow up something in the U.S. during a major event.

Only now, thanks to Wikileaks, they clam up, go into hiding or otherwise fail to provide that vital information because they can no longer be certain they won't be later reading online about their involvement with intelligence agencies - a revelation that would certainly place themselves if not their families in grave jeopardy.

So BOOM... a bunch of people die somewhere (maybe you or someone you know) all for lack of a bit of information or even a frekin' "heads up"; just so some asshole hack on a power trip can get the thrill and notoriety of leaking secret information to the rest of the world.

This is pretty much my view, especially with regard to the Afghanistan leaks.
It's not just that people will be killed because there are fewer "heads up" given, but also that some of those who gave heads up will probably die because of Wikileaks' revelations.
Assange is playing with lives very cavalierly, imo.

I'm much less troubled by these latest revelations, but I do think that governments have a right to expect their diplomats' communications to remain secret.
What will happen is that much more will be merely spoken, and much less committed to print in any form.
That's already happening in a lot of government departments here in Canada ... over a period of many years.
It's simple self-preservation.

 

[faceking]

OK, so now that's it is obvious that Obama and Hillary are hypocritical hacks..

this guy is not a whistleblower... a whistleblower protects, exposes the exploited, etc... this cat has crossed the line. 99% of what he leaked out, would be a MAJOR crime in the private sector especially since there is no wrong doing. Poor Obama... here we thought he would be the grand uniter (despite all of the Middle East HATING him, Korea, etc...).. now he's part of the 'US problem'... but regardless of Obama, Bush, BozoBiden, HalliCheney...Condy.. Billary...

this is bad, and is treason.. plain and simple. release what needs to be known. military and diplomatic strategy... I notice it's beginning to get VERY thin on his defenders but they are all liberals/progressives. I'm sure there are few LPSGers still shaking their liberal pom-poms, but yer wrong on this. I know it, you know it, we know it, the world knows it.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

this is bad, and is treason...

But he's not a Merkun.

 

[popgoestheweasle]

Big Red

I like the way you think..... people are
in a hypnotic state ...glad that you can see through the bullshit...most people are follower... following this or that path with the other saps...leaders cut and make there own paths and follow no one...it doesn't matter Republican or Democrat there all corrupt

 

[TinyPrincess]

The US is now trying to take the site down...

WikiLeaks reports another electronic disruption - CNN.com

And suddenly Sweden ask Interpol to issue global arrest alert for Julian Assange for rape - what a coincident

 

[Big_Red]

Assange is playing with lives very cavalierly, imo.

The most powerful country in the history of the world creates false evidence and lies to the world, using that as justification for a war which kills hundreds of thousands of civilians. Four decades earlier, an event is staged in the Gulf of Tonkin and used as justification for a war which kills a million Asians. Around the same time for the next decade or so, proxy wars and funded and facilitated by the same government, which lead to hundreds of thousands of innocent people being tortured or killed. From the 50's through to the 80's, government after government in South America is toppled by direct assistance, or even outright participation, from the CIA. Democratically-elected leaders are either assassinated, or exiled. Psychotic, tin pot dictators are installed by the same people, who are friendly to related foreign business interests. More than a million innocent people are tortured or executed by these despotic governments. The same exercise is repeated again and again in other countries, such as Iran (actually, in Iran it happened arguably first). And I won't bother talking about the trillions of dollars of taxpayer's money which went into these "operations of freedom".

But, of course, it's whistleblowers like Julian Assange who are playing with lives. Got it. :thanks: :grinning-smiley-003 :banghead:

 

[B_KendraLesnick831]

Big Red,

Deliciously ironic, isn't it?

 

[b.c.]

It's destroyed relationships and trust between the corrupt, unaccountable, THIEVING governments of the world and The People, and exposed the cockroad-ridden corporatocracy which lurks beneath. And thank God for that!

Aww grow up already!

What will happen is that much more will be merely spoken, and much less committed to print in any form.
That's already happening in a lot of government departments here in Canada ... over a period of many years.
It's simple self-preservation.

Yeah...will probably result in even more secrecy.

this is bad, and is treason.. plain and simple. release what needs to be known. military and diplomatic strategy... I notice it's beginning to get VERY thin on his defenders but they are all liberals/progressives. I'm sure there are few LPSGers still shaking their liberal pom-poms, but yer wrong on this. I know it, you know it, we know it, the world knows it.

His defenders are all liberal/progressives?? Have you even been READING our posts??

The most powerful country in the history of the world creates false evidence and lies to the world, using that as justification for a war which kills hundreds of thousands of civilians. Four decades earlier, an event is staged in the Gulf of Tonkin and used as justification for a war which kills a million Asians. Around the same time for the next decade or so, proxy wars and funded and facilitated by the same government, which lead to hundreds of thousands of innocent people being tortured or killed. From the 50's through to the 80's, government after government in South America is toppled by direct assistance, or even outright participation, from the CIA. Democratically-elected leaders are either assassinated, or exiled. Psychotic, tin pot dictators are installed by the same people, who are friendly to related foreign business interests. More than a million innocent people are tortured or executed by these despotic governments. The same exercise is repeated again and again in other countries, such as Iran (actually, in Iran it happened arguably first). And I won't bother talking about the trillions of dollars of taxpayer's money which went into these "operations of freedom".

But, of course, it's whistleblowers like Julian Assange who are playing with lives. Got it. :thanks: :grinning-smiley-003 :banghead:

And all of those wrongs don't justify yet another. The leaks would've had at least some merit if they revealed anything in the magnitude of the above.

Instead the were just a hodgepodge of "dirty linen", served up to raise distrust among world governments and to place America's allies in tenuous positions.

 

[dandelion]

This goes along exactly with politicians who say citizens have no right to take action to oppose whatever their governments do. The argument being used on all sides right now in the uk is that students are wrong to protest against grant cuts because the protests may get out of hand and end in civil disobedience. No reform in history was achieved without disobedience to then existing government. It is part of the democratic process. From the US perspective, the right to bear arms is even in the constitution, they thought it so important to make sure the people could rebel.

This leak is just the same. Governments claim a right to secrecy of anything they find embarrassing, but they do not have it. It is hardly surprising that a government happy to use torture in its fight to preserve world freedom would keep secret embarrassing documents. Governments need to learn that it is not acceptable to try to keep this stuff secret. Who are they kidding? This is not the first time a note has been leaked about diplomats spying on each other. Of course they do! Of course the other sides do the same. The only people being misled here are the general public. This is all about threats to the image at home of those people involved. They were pretending to be something other than what they are, and this should not be possible in a democracy.

 

[noirman]

I find myself agreeing with you entirely even though my hackles always rise when anyone starts whittling away at the First Amendment bc of dirtbags like Assange. While people are trying to decide which, if any, law was broken and whether this is political in nature, people end up in harm's way, and for me that is unacceptable. I remain conflicted on the degree of covertness that is necessary in the name of national security and how much "freedom" of the press should be allowed simply because preventing the loss of human life and maintaining the ability of our diplomats to function are so vital. If I sound confused, it is because I am.

This is pretty much my view, especially with regard to the Afghanistan leaks.
It's not just that people will be killed because there are fewer "heads up" given, but also that some of those who gave heads up will probably die because of Wikileaks' revelations.
Assange is playing with lives very cavalierly, imo.

I'm much less troubled by these latest revelations, but I do think that governments have a right to expect their diplomats' communications to remain secret.
What will happen is that much more will be merely spoken, and much less committed to print in any form.
That's already happening in a lot of government departments here in Canada ... over a period of many years.
It's simple self-preservation.

 

[dandelion]

Loss of human life is hardly ever a consideration. Loss of human life of their countrymen matters more, but even that is downplayed or upplayed to suit the moment. If someone in power in the US had just decided to, say, invade Iraq, a few thousands of US deaths and a million others would be considered fine. But someone who just leaked a few messages deserves any punishment the law can devise?

 

[Big_Red]

Aww grow up already!

Oh, you so clever! Is that really the best you can come up with?

And all of those wrongs don't justify yet another. The leaks would've had at least some merit if they revealed anything in the magnitude of the above.

You call revealing the Saudi Royal family's wish to have Iran invaded as not having merit??? Or revealing the Secretary of State's expressed wishes of having other world leaders spied on as not having merit??? Wow.

I outlined all of those atrocities because I wanted to show the total absurdity of saying that Wikileaks puts lives in harm's way. What puts the MOST lives in harm's way is unnecessary, unaccountable secrecy. We saw how the release of the Pentagon Papers made staying in Vietnam untenable. But just imagine if Daniel Ellsberg had revealed the papers in October of 1969 when he wanted to, instead of June of 1971 when the public was first made aware of them by the NYTimes? They could have saved many thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of lives in Vietnam and Cambodia.

Imagine, still, if Wikileaks were around in 2002 and incriminating documents were uploaded which revealed the lies which went into selling the Iraq War to the American people and the rest of the world.

Taking this further, imagine what would have happened if the government were called out at the time (or before they happened) on Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, Chile in 1973, Panama in 1981 and all the other South American countries which had their leaders replaced by despots hand-picked by America's elite? Again, hundreds of thousands of lives could have been spared. Not to mention countless billions of dollars of taxpayer's money.

The fact is that whistleblowers have absolutely no protection when they come out. ZERO. They're immediately persecuted to the point that their whole lives are destroyed. Their families are torn apart, all their money spent mounting a legal defense. And if they attempt to hit back by suing the government, their cases are always, ALWAYS dismissed on the grounds of state secrets, or executive privilege.

Wikileaks and other sites like it were born out of necessity and I hope they unleash unholy Hell on corrupt, unjust, criminal governments and corporations worldwide.

Instead the were just a hodgepodge of "dirty linen", served up to raise distrust among world governments and to place America's allies in tenuous positions.

Hilary Clinton called. She wants her line back.

 

[SilverTrain]

Imagine, still, if Wikileaks were around in 2002 and incriminating documents were uploaded which revealed the lies which went into selling the Iraq War to the American people and the rest of the world.

LOL!

Anyone who needed Wikileaks in order to recognize the selling of the Iraq War was a pack of lies = completely mentally deficient.

And analogizing Wikileaks to The Pentagon Papers is incongruous. The latter dealt with information limited to and focussed upon a specific theater of conflict in a specified time period. Vastly different than the former's massive, indiscriminate dumping of classified documentation of international communications between all manner of nations concerning all manner of issues.

The Pentagon Papers was a journalistic blowing the lid off a story itching to be told. Wikileaks is a hacker getting his jollies in a manner that is tantamount to cyberterrorism.

 

[Big_Red]

LOL!

Anyone who needed Wikileaks in order to recognize the selling of the Iraq War was a pack of lies = completely mentally deficient.

That would be nearly three-quarters of the American public- if you believe the polls, that is.

And analogizing Wikileaks to The Pentagon Papers is incongruous. The latter dealt with information limited to and focussed upon a specific theater of conflict in a specified time period. Vastly different than the former's massive, indiscriminate dumping of classified documentation of international communications between all manner of nations concerning all manner of issues.

Wikileaks is one place where whistleblowers can dump information without fear of reprisal. If Wikipedia somehow existed back in 1969, Daniel Ellsberg would surely have "published" there first, rather than waiting close to another 2 years for the mainstream media to get to it.

The Pentagon Papers was a journalistic blowing the lid off a story itching to be told. Wikileaks is a hacker getting his jollies in a manner that is tantamount to cyberterrorism.

I know. Clearly, disclosures like the Saudi Arabian Royal Family urging America to invade Iran, or Hillary getting involved in the intelligence business and asking for surveillance on foreign leaders- those aren't stories "itching to be told". No, the reporting of such stories is "tantamount to cyberterrorism". Uh huh. Thank you for that brilliant bit of reasoning there! :grinning-smiley-003

 

[B_KendraLesnick831]

Big Red,

Wikileaks is one place where whistleblowers can dump information without fear of reprisal.

Which is why it bothers me when they are tirelessly pursuing Assange, and tirelessly trying to shut his site down for good.

 

[B_RedDude]

Here we have another fine example of a San Francisco nutbag, with a screwed up perception of reality.

...Which is why it bothers me when they are tirelessly pursuing Assange, and tirelessly trying to shut his site down for good.

 

[B_KendraLesnick831]

Red Dude,

While I believe certain secrets should be kept, sometimes governments keep secrets for no good reason other than to protect themselves from the accountability they deserve.