Why do Obama and Clinton opose Wikileaks latest...

B_RedDude

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My apologies. I shouldn't have treated your post so superficially without acutally knowing your views in detail. But I don't have a problem with anyone being prosecuted for this wholesale revelation of classified information. I'm not saying that such revelation is never good or justified; just that if it is to be done, the reasons for it be should be materially serious, and focus on particular matters (like the Pentagon Papers, for instance). I agree with you, of course, that the government's judgments in these matters is not always on the side of good.

Red Dude,

While I believe certain secrets should be kept, sometimes governments keep secrets for no good reason other than to protect themselves from the accountability they deserve.
 
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rob_just_rob

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Red Dude,

While I believe certain secrets should be kept, sometimes governments keep secrets for no good reason other than to protect themselves from the accountability they deserve.

Completely agree with this.

There ARE matters that are genuine state secrets. And then there are matters that would merely be embarassing or politically inconvenient if revealed. And there are other things that are kept secret to preserve the secret-keepers' power.

At this point, the genuine state secrets are a tiny proportion of all the "secret" materials our governments keep. The words "confidential" and "top secret" have been completely devalued, to anyone who is paying attention. Is it any wonder that we don't take "state secrets" seriously anymore?
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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My apologies. I shouldn't have treated your post so superficially without acutally knowing your views in detail. But I don't have a problem with anyone being prosecuted for this wholesale revelation of classified information.

That person is being prosecuted, his name is Brad Manning.

Assange is just the guy who received the information, and now he has made it public. This is not new, it's how journalism works. This is far from the first time classified info has fallen into the media's hands, and they are protected in this kind of thing.
 

dandelion

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LOL!

Anyone who needed Wikileaks in order to recognize the selling of the Iraq War was a pack of lies = completely mentally deficient.
I just noticed a random snippet which said that the UK government had doctored the UK official enquiry into the invasion of Iraq at the request of the US. That only recently happened. Obviously they are still lying. And the website seems to be under attack since it does not straightforwardly list in my web browser.

The more you find out, the more the US can be seen to be wholly unreliable as an ally and busy trashing the world to further what it perceives as US interest. Some of that might be justified if US citizens agreed this is in the US interest, but would they if they had access to all the papers? I presume this is why governments are so upset. Because if you did read everything they had written there would be crowds in the street demanding retribution for what had been done in our names.

Not to be taken to mean that the US is the only offender, no government should be allowed to get away with this warmongering.

And incidentally, the UK news is just getting excited over revelations the US thought UK troops were a waste of time in afghanistan. (I might agree, but its not what they say officially)


Yep, its on the news now. There is a cyber attack on DNS servers against wikileaks. Now who could be doing that? US government? Hardly think any hackers would be interested in attacking them. The only people with a motive seem to be governments. The news said this is being done via viruses which take over your computer and use it. So does that mean that the real people sending out computer viruses are governments, with right now the obvious culprit being the US?
 
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SilverTrain

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I just noticed a random snippet which said that the UK government had doctored the UK official enquiry into the invasion of Iraq at the request of the US. That only recently happened. Obviously they are still lying. And the website seems to be under attack since it does not straightforwardly list in my web browser.

The more you find out, the more the US can be seen to be wholly unreliable as an ally and busy trashing the world to further what it perceives as US interest. Some of that might be justified if US citizens agreed this is in the US interest, but would they if they had access to all the papers? I presume this is why governments are so upset. Because if you did read everything they had written there would be crowds in the street demanding retribution for what had been done in our names.

Not to be taken to mean that the US is the only offender, no government should be allowed to get away with this warmongering.

And incidentally, the UK news is just getting excited over revelations the US thought UK troops were a waste of time in afghanistan. (I might agree, but its not what they say officially)


Yep, its on the news now. There is a cyber attack on DNS servers against wikileaks. Now who could be doing that? US government? Hardly think any hackers would be interested in attacking them. The only people with a motive seem to be governments. The news said this is being done via viruses which take over your computer and use it. So does that mean that the real people sending out computer viruses are governments, with right now the obvious culprit being the US?

Obviously, newly revealed information regarding the leadup to the Iraq War will continue to surface. Which doesn't change the fact that anyone could see it was all a sham back in '02.

As to the antics of the US government or agents thereof, I wouldn't put anything past them, or beneath them. However, all the cloak, dagger and skullduggery have been learned from the Brits, for certain! So eyes should have been (and I'm sure, were) quite wide open throughout all the fun and fray.

Now, to the main point: It seems pretty clear that non-Americans are enjoying the Wikileaks stuff to a significant degree. I imagine this has much to do with the schadenfreude derived from watching the mighty USA fall.* This is quite understandable from a basic human psychology standpoint. As far as it being a boon to the world to have this info outed in this fashion, however, is that really a tenable notion? Surely, this will only lead to increased negativity, tension and instability. I'm reminded of Ghostbusters, and the shutting down of the grid and the resulting release of all the negative energy. Seriously. The "good" is apparently seeing the USA (or some aspect thereof) look foolish; revealing its folly. A bit of comeuppance for Uncle Sam, so to speak. But if it only leads to a more dangerous world, how can it be seen as a good (even, apparently) virtuous thing?

All deference to my comrade Bbucko (and John Lydon), but I'm not one who looks favorably upon anarchy. And what does this blind hurling of boulders engender, but for a push in the direction of an anarchic tearing down of The Establishment so as to ready the world for A Great Rebuilding (or perhaps an extended state of Great Unrest)?

I'm the guy who's marched in a fair few political rallies in my day. And I'm as critical of US Federal Government policies (as well as those of the other governments of the world) as the next person. But I have never subscribed to indiscriminate Rage Against The Machine. And I don't do so now. I'm of the view that it's not doing any good for anyone.


* [sidebar on: What is the USA? The total populace living within its borders, the official citizenry, the government as a whole, the FED, etc...?] [sidebar II: USA-haters, what is it you really hate: the populace as a whole, WASPS, those three guys who annoyed you while vacationing in Santorini in '03, etc....?]
 

B_curiousme01

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Where in the Constitution does it say heads of state and diplomats shall not have a right to confidentiality and that it is the right of the people to full disclosure of all such matters?

And to what benefit has such disclosure served?

Have the leaks enhanced the Saudi's position to act as either an ally or envoy in negotiating sensitive matters with the rest of the Muslim world, or has their ability to bridge that gap been severely diminished?

Have the disclosures improved the relationships between world governments or have they harmed them? Have they built trust or destroyed it?

And finally, have the revelations made you feel any more secure in your "homeland"?

So well said. I have noticed lately that some people simply like pointing fingers anywhere they can and feeling like they are better than someone/anyone else. It's literally all over tv 24/7.

Leaving aside the SIGNIFICANT national security and theft issues, I wonder how many people who think this was cool would feel if all their secrets were published and discussed in detail by the world at large? Out of the blue too.

No? Okay. How about...

If you honestly think you have a right to know a secret about anything/one, go outside and walk up to the first person who has a video camera, phone, or even a tv reporter and tell them your most private secrets ------- all of them, in detail. Come back and let us know how that goes and if you feel any differently about the issue.
 

popgoestheweasle

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Everyone repeat after me ...Freedom of the Press....I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed ....but let me take a wild guess....I'm willing to bet the house that it was put in place .... to expose people in power who do more then just step over the line..more like abuse there power....and when you have people in power who abuse, rape and butt fuck the people....it kinda pisses people off and they tend to over throw these people in power in the past.....whats funny is these power hungry people...want us to believe just because society is better then its ever been ..you know like no rotten food, shelter, clothing.... that the threat of a revolution does not need to exist anymore...lmao....Well in my eyes it has never been more needed ....cause the powerful have never been this powerful.....call it a balance

Freedom of the press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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dandelion

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However, all the cloak, dagger and skullduggery have been learned from the Brits, for certain!
Come, this has been happening throughout history. It is america which is currently squirming in the limelight, but that just happens to be todays bad luck. could have been any country. I would be just as entertained if it was a primarily british government embarassment. It does however have added bite because of the high moral tone the US likes to adopt.


The "good" is apparently seeing the USA (or some aspect thereof) look foolish; revealing its folly. A bit of comeuppance for Uncle Sam, so to speak. But if it only leads to a more dangerous world, how can it be seen as a good (even, apparently) virtuous thing?
I do not believe it leads to a more dangerous world. The more dangerous world results from countries trying to impose their will on others. As the worlds most powerful nation, the US is more guilty of this than most. All that has happened is that the activities of the US have been drawn to public attention more forcefully than usual. The 'good' to come out of this is that they will be cautious of doing it again having been caught out.

And what does this blind hurling of boulders engender, but for a push in the direction of an anarchic tearing down of The Establishment so as to ready the world for A Great Rebuilding (or perhaps an extended state of Great Unrest)?
As I said, it is the US which has been caught lying. How can this be tearing down a shining example of probity? More, exposing a cesspit of corruption.

I have never subscribed to indiscriminate Rage Against The Machine.
Hardly indiscriminate. The important thing here is not rage against the machine, but ridicle of the machine. The US is raging because it has been caught scheming and lying and therefore those schemes and lies are less likely to work. The machine itself is showing signs of indiscriminate rage, lashing out against wikileaks. wikileaks is on our side, and on the side of history. Technology works against secrets.

But the information released is not trivial. It say once again that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were pointles.
 

SilverTrain

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The US [Revive sidebar, as to: what is "The US"? There's very little (actually, zero) "raging" in "The US" over this. Not sure what's happening in The White House, at Langley, at State, etc...] is raging because it has been caught scheming and lying and therefore those schemes and lies are less likely to work.

That's rather naive, isn't it? They'll just get cleverer at the scheming and lying, surely.

The machine itself is showing signs of indiscriminate rage, lashing out against wikileaks. wikileaks is on our side, and on the side of history. Technology works against secrets.

Sneakers was a wonderful little film wasn't it? Sir Ben got to do some good ol' fashioned scene-chewing in that one.

But the information released is not trivial. It say once again that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were pointles.

Yes. We can all be reminded once again what a travesty that was. Does this mean we can look forward to Wikileaks: The Raj; Wikileaks: The Holocaust; Wikileaks: Japanese Internment Camps; Wikileaks: The Cambridge Five; Wikileaks: Iran/Contra..........
 

b.c.

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Oh, you so clever! Is that really the best you can come up with?

You call revealing the Saudi Royal family's wish to have Iran invaded as not having merit??? Or revealing the Secretary of State's expressed wishes of having other world leaders spied on as not having merit??? Wow.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Nowhere does the information indicate any plan of action (on the part of the Saudis) on those wishes. Wishing someone dead may be unkind, but only acting upon those wishes is a crime.

How many off the record comments or things have YOU said about someone that you'd like to have show up online?

My apologies. I shouldn't have treated your post so superficially without acutally knowing your views in detail. But I don't have a problem with anyone being prosecuted for this wholesale revelation of classified information. I'm not saying that such revelation is never good or justified; just that if it is to be done, the reasons for it be should be materially serious, and focus on particular matters (like the Pentagon Papers, for instance). I agree with you, of course, that the government's judgments in these matters is not always on the side of good.

Nice to know that you finally agree with the position that we've been arguing all along. :cool:
 

dandelion

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what is "The US"? There's very little (actually, zero) "raging" in "The US" over this.
well quite. The news says the US is outraged. That is, the only bit of the US we get to hear about which is a representative of the government of the US. So if you are telling me the government is out of step with the people, that is exactly what wikileaks said.

That's rather naive, isn't it? They'll just get cleverer at the scheming and lying, surely.
So because murderers keep doing it, we should make murder legal?

Yes. We can all be reminded once again what a travesty that was. Does this mean we can look forward to Wikileaks: The Raj; Wikileaks: The Holocaust; Wikileaks: Japanese Internment Camps; Wikileaks: The Cambridge Five; Wikileaks: Iran/Contra..........
As best I recall, the Uk has withdrawn from India, Germans are not exterminating jews, the japanese not running internment camps. The US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan continues. This is not a historic mistake by the US but current policy.
 

dandelion

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All that says is that freedom of the press in the US is dependent on the good will of its government. Is that freedom? I read a curious comment the other day which said wikileaks had deliberately extended its operations to countries where there was risk action might be taken against it, just to see what happened. Dont know if thats true, but the world gets to see which side the US is on.
 
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deleted15807

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The news says the US is outraged.

'Outraged' is rather subjective isn't it? The 'news cycle' never changes. It comes up with a 'huge' story then 24 hrs later it's another 'huge' story. It's all built around what the editors/producers feel is the latest 'outrage'. People love it when you lose. Give us dirty laundry.

All that says is that freedom of the press in the US is dependent on the good will of its government. Is that freedom?


Not exactly.

The Freedom of Information Act
 
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B_TonyK8483

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Sargon 20,

Of course a major stream of income to the site has been cut; it's a form of economic warfare. Which is quite fascinating, as he was planning on publishing a huge cache of information about corrupt international banking practices...
 
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dandelion

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did paypal get a mention since theyre the ones cutting him off? I dont think the story said people planned to stop giving him money, just that paypal was refusing to collect it. You can still post him cash to a PO box!
 

SilverTrain

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[/COLOR][/B]

[/COLOR][/B] So because murderers keep doing it, we should make murder legal?

A poor, twisted attempt at "argument", lacking in appropriate analogy, logic, etc.

As best I recall, the Uk has withdrawn from India, Germans are not exterminating jews, the japanese not running internment camps. The US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan continues. This is not a historic mistake by the US but current policy.


Some of the leaked info is "current", some of it, not so much. But, regardless, it's supremely irresponsible (and perhaps, criminal) to dump it on the www. Apparently, David Cameron agrees. [WikiLeaks publishes list of worldwide infrastructure 'critical' to security of U.S.--'The U.K. government also condemned the publication of the document. "The leaks and their publication are damaging to national security in the United States, Britain and elsewhere," a spokesman for the Prime Minister David Cameron said in a statement, according to NBC News. "It is vital that governments are able to operate on the basis of confidentiality of information."']

It's an f-you to the US Government. I get that. But that's all it is. It's not some grand, eloquent gesture. It's not "doing the right thing". It's not "revealing US wrongdoing". It's not [cough] The Pentagon Papers.

It's making the world more dangerous, not less.
 

TinyPrincess

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I'm sure your clients would love it if you opened all their files to the www.

Who said I haven't??? :rolleyes:

But then I don't have to - most of serious attacks on my customers are by "friendly" agencies - oops... :eek: And given the track record of the agencies, Wikileaks will soon post some of it...