Why i don't like the fat is beautiful movement

Oxnard

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Please understand. This is coming from someone who is genuinely attracted to large women.

I guess the place to start is to explain why some men buy into Fat Is Beautiful, since the reason some women buy into it should be obvious.

Please remember this phrase: "I like her the way she is, why can't she like her the way she is?" Most of the time when I use that phrase around other heterosexual men, their eyes kind of light up and they will say something like "That's a great way to put it" or "I never could put that feeling into words." I think that this is a very common relationship frustration among heterosexual men, but, well, we're not very good at talking about or even thinking about our feelings.

Anyway, most of us are aware that society damages your self image with all that nonsense about appearance, we don't like that it hurts you, and we are painfully aware that most of you will take it out on us (generally the one person in the world who disagrees with society the most on this issue), which complicates the relationship.

I think any man in a relationship with a large woman would be sorely tempted to grasp onto the idea of the Fat Is Beautiful movement as a way to protect his special someone's feelings from the ravages of society's attitudes about women and appearances.

So let's look at society's view of large women as a syllogism:

Premise 1: The only thing that matters about a woman is her looks.
Premise 2: Large women are unattractive.
Conclusion: Therefore, large women are worthless.

I think we can all agree that the conclusion is bullshit and needs to be stomped out of existence, but the problem with the Fat Is Beautiful movement is that it focuses entirely on premise 2. You know what? Premise 2 is completely subjective. You'll never convince people of that. You can't talk most people into or out of a subjective opinion.

Not only is it useless to attack premise 2, but premise 1 is a much, much bigger problem because premise 1 negatively impacts all women. Every single one. And it's wrong. Incredibly wrong. Hell, even very sexist men will value non-physical attributes in women (although they might value non-physical things like "She makes me sandwiches" or "She has a low self image and is thus easier to control," but I digress). Get rid of premise 1 and the conclusion goes poof just as surely as it would if you got rid of premise 2.

Worse, I think premise 1 is incredibly pervasive and ubiquitous in our society. After all, no one in the Fat Is Beautiful movement thought to attack premise 1 instead of premise 2.

Think about what happens when there is a news announcement about a woman winning any of the Nobel prizes. No matter what part of the world you are from, chances are you heard someone respond to that news with "Yeah, but how good-looking is she?" as if making an important intellectual or sociopolitical contribution to humanity is of no import. That's premise 1 driving the train.

The worst example of premise 1 is the way Jenny McCarthy is treated by the public and the media. Jenny McCarthy has endangered the health of countless children with her stupidity just by expressing her belief that vaccines are dangerous and discouraging parents from vaccinating their children.

To any heterosexuals reading this: can you honestly think of an attribute in a potential lover less sexy or more repulsive than endangering the lives of many children? Any at all? Because I sure as fuck can't. We may not like to admit it, but children can affect a lot of our sex and relationship choices more than we realize, and I cannot look at that woman without thinking about how many children she may have harmed with her stupidity.

Instead of becoming a social pariah, people still care what she thinks. Why? Because she happens to be considered physically attractive.

Think about how this whole mess subtly sends the message to everyone that looks are the only thing that matters about a woman. Somewhere out there is a woman who is smart, kind, funny, and having a really positive impact on the world around her who feels that she is less than Jenny McCarthy because she happens to be less physically good-looking. How fucked up is that?

Premise 1 needs to die.
 

Oxnard

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In case I didn't make it clear: simply by trying to solve this problem by convincing people that large women are beautiful, the Fat Is Beautiful movement is inherently buying into, and perhaps even perpetuating the idea that looks are the only thing that matters about a woman.

I don't think that helps anybody.
 
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I don't buy into it because of the massive health implications.

On one hand I WANT people to care about themselves, to have self esteem and to reject superficiality, stereo types
and preconceived notions of how they should look.

On the other hand, every shift I'm confronted by the results of obesity, high cholesterol, stroke, joint issues, etc, etc with more and more bariatrics presenting for immediate medical interventions.

That being said, the whole "fat is beautiful" IS an issue when it starts to affect health and that person's ability to function in their life in the ways they would wish.
 

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I can understand why there are people who want to make it known that you don't have to be thin to be beautiful, and that's very true. What gets under my skin is when the message turns into nothing more than 'this group of women is More beautiful because xyz, ect...'

The message wouldn't bother me so much if it was about the idea that women can be beautiful in many sizes and from any background, and that the way we look is not the most important thing about us. We have much more to bring to the world than just being easy on the eyes and warm-n-soft on the pecker.
 
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Oxnard

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I don't buy into it because of the massive health implications.

On one hand I WANT people to care about themselves, to have self esteem and to reject superficiality, stereo types
and preconceived notions of how they should look.

On the other hand, every shift I'm confronted by the results of obesity, high cholesterol, stroke, joint issues, etc, etc with more and more bariatrics presenting for immediate medical interventions.

That being said, the whole "fat is beautiful" IS an issue when it starts to affect health and that person's ability to function in their life in the ways they would wish.
Sure, but you know how harsh society can be towards women and that all those things are worse when directed at fat women. I can understand why someone would want society to change given how bad that can get.

But I agree, that is another problem with the Fat Is Beautiful movement. It encourages women to not do something about their health. However, encouraging them to work out because fat women are ugly and worthless is a pretty bad way to go about it. They should want to work out because they want to be healthy, not because they think that is the only way people will like them or worse, because that is the only way they can like themselves.
 
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The " A REAL WOMAN IS..*insert body type*" or "A real woman has *insert whatever* are other movements that bug the hell out of me.

I get that it is trying to empower whomever is using it but not one single body type has the monopoly on being a "real woman".
You don't have to diminish another female or female identifying person's femininity in order to empower your own.
 

Oxnard

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I can understand why there are people who want to make it known that you don't have to be thin to be beautiful, and that's very true. What gets under my skin is when the message turns into nothing more than 'this group of women is More beautiful because xyz, ect...'

The message wouldn't bother me so much if it was about the idea that women can be beautiful in many sizes and from any background, and that the way we look is not the most important thing about us. We have much more to bring to the world than just being easy on the eyes and warm-n-soft on the pecker.
I think men in general have a much more expansive notion of feminine beauty than society does. That's kind of what I was trying to illustrate with the "body types" thread in the "ask a man" forum.

Society's approach seems to be:
  1. Make women neurotic about their looks
  2. Tell them they aren't pretty enough
  3. Repeat until their self image is damaged enough that you can make them do whatever
I had a study partner who was a high end model and honestly one of the most physically beautiful woman I'd ever met. I spend a lot of time talking to platonic female friends about what society does to them when it comes to all that self image crap. When the model became a platonic friend, I asked her the same sorts of questions I usually asked. I was convinced that she would not be affected by that crap. I thought, surely she is beautiful enough. Surely this is the one woman who thinks she is "pretty enough" to not let all of society's crap fuck up her self image.

Being wrong about that made me sad. :(

Yeah, it definitely affected her less and less often than other women, but it still hit her in a lot of places and in a lot of ways. I could even see it in some of the things she didn't tell me. That's the problem with trying to live up to society's standards of beauty: society will never tell you that you are "pretty enough." Not telling you that is the whole point of the control mechanism.

But your guy already thinks what society will never tell. you. ;)
 
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Oxnard

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The " A REAL WOMAN IS..*insert body type*" or "A real woman has *insert whatever* are other movements that bug the hell out of me.

I get that it is trying to empower whomever is using it but not one single body type has the monopoly on being a "real woman".
You don't have to diminish another female or female identifying person's femininity in order to empower your own.
Pretty much any time a man uses the phrase "a real woman..." or a woman uses "a real man..." they are about to impose their own ideas about gender roles on you, and often reveal more about themselves than perhaps they mean to.
 

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But your guy already thinks what society will never tell. you. ;)

Oh I know. My man and I have had extensive conversations about how varied his tastes are... and I know very well that he's far from the only one. It's overwhelmingly obvious that the idea that thinner = more attractive has been pushed on us for longer than I care to think about. I'm just seriously happy I managed to see through the bullshit, and that I happen to be with a man who doesn't just tell me what he thinks I want to hear, he tells me how he actually feels about things.
 

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Pretty much any time a man uses the phrase "a real woman..." or a woman uses "a real man..." they are about to impose their own ideas about gender roles on you, and often reveal more about themselves than perhaps they mean to.
Yesterday, I saw a friend post a Facebook Status something along the lines of, "A real woman can do it on her own, but a real man won't let her." I hate that. First of all, sometimes it can't be done alone. This is a lesson I have had to learn the hard way. I'm terrible at asking for help, and worse at accepting it. Blech. Second of all, sometimes I'm handling it myself, whatever it is, and the LAST thing I want is the condescension of my man not letting me. And finally, what if he just can't help? Sometimes, doesn't it have to be enough that wants to?
 

Oxnard

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Oh I know. My man and I have had extensive conversations about how varied his tastes are... and I know very well that he's far from the only one. It's overwhelmingly obvious that the idea that thinner = more attractive has been pushed on us for longer than I care to think about. I'm just seriously happy I managed to see through the bullshit, and that I happen to be with a man who doesn't just tell me what he thinks I want to hear, he tells me how he actually feels about things.
Glad to hear it. Sounds like a really healthy relationship.

Honestly, I'm usually terrified to mention what I think about other women physically when I'm in a relationship. Also, I try to concentrate on commenting on the positive and negative non-physical attributes of other women and female public figures specifically in an attempt to counter the "looks are all that matter" thing. I dunno if doing that actually works, but that's what I try.
 

Oxnard

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Yesterday, I saw a friend post a Facebook Status something along the lines of, "A real woman can do it on her own, but a real man won't let her." I hate that. First of all, sometimes it can't be done alone. This is a lesson I have had to learn the hard way. I'm terrible at asking for help, and worse at accepting it. Blech. Second of all, sometimes I'm handling it myself, whatever it is, and the LAST thing I want is the condescension of my man not letting me. And finally, what if he just can't help? Sometimes, doesn't it have to be enough that wants to?
Honestly, what bugs me the most about all that "real man" and "real woman" crap is that it is such a blatant and obvious attempt to use another person's desire for attraction to influence their attitudes and behavior.
 

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Please understand. This is coming from someone who is genuinely attracted to large women.

I guess the place to start is to explain why some men buy into Fat Is Beautiful, since the reason some women buy into it should be obvious.

Please remember this phrase: "I like her the way she is, why can't she like her the way she is?" Most of the time when I use that phrase around other heterosexual men, their eyes kind of light up and they will say something like "That's a great way to put it" or "I never could put that feeling into words." I think that this is a very common relationship frustration among heterosexual men, but, well, we're not very good at talking about or even thinking about our feelings.

Anyway, most of us are aware that society damages your self image with all that nonsense about appearance, we don't like that it hurts you, and we are painfully aware that most of you will take it out on us (generally the one person in the world who disagrees with society the most on this issue), which complicates the relationship.

I think any man in a relationship with a large woman would be sorely tempted to grasp onto the idea of the Fat Is Beautiful movement as a way to protect his special someone's feelings from the ravages of society's attitudes about women and appearances.

So let's look at society's view of large women as a syllogism:

Premise 1: The only thing that matters about a woman is her looks.
Premise 2: Large women are unattractive.
Conclusion: Therefore, large women are worthless.

I think we can all agree that the conclusion is bullshit and needs to be stomped out of existence, but the problem with the Fat Is Beautiful movement is that it focuses entirely on premise 2. You know what? Premise 2 is completely subjective. You'll never convince people of that. You can't talk most people into or out of a subjective opinion.

Not only is it useless to attack premise 2, but premise 1 is a much, much bigger problem because premise 1 negatively impacts all women. Every single one. And it's wrong. Incredibly wrong. Hell, even very sexist men will value non-physical attributes in women (although they might value non-physical things like "She makes me sandwiches" or "She has a low self image and is thus easier to control," but I digress). Get rid of premise 1 and the conclusion goes poof just as surely as it would if you got rid of premise 2.

Worse, I think premise 1 is incredibly pervasive and ubiquitous in our society. After all, no one in the Fat Is Beautiful movement thought to attack premise 1 instead of premise 2.

Think about what happens when there is a news announcement about a woman winning any of the Nobel prizes. No matter what part of the world you are from, chances are you heard someone respond to that news with "Yeah, but how good-looking is she?" as if making an important intellectual or sociopolitical contribution to humanity is of no import. That's premise 1 driving the train.

The worst example of premise 1 is the way Jenny McCarthy is treated by the public and the media. Jenny McCarthy has endangered the health of countless children with her stupidity just by expressing her belief that vaccines are dangerous and discouraging parents from vaccinating their children.

To any heterosexuals reading this: can you honestly think of an attribute in a potential lover less sexy or more repulsive than endangering the lives of many children? Any at all? Because I sure as fuck can't. We may not like to admit it, but children can affect a lot of our sex and relationship choices more than we realize, and I cannot look at that woman without thinking about how many children she may have harmed with her stupidity.

Instead of becoming a social pariah, people still care what she thinks. Why? Because she happens to be considered physically attractive.

Think about how this whole mess subtly sends the message to everyone that looks are the only thing that matters about a woman. Somewhere out there is a woman who is smart, kind, funny, and having a really positive impact on the world around her who feels that she is less than Jenny McCarthy because she happens to be less physically good-looking. How fucked up is that?

Premise 1 needs to die.

Remember when Mother Teresa won the Nobel prize, and everyone wanted to no if she's hot?

Okay, but seriously. I do think that what you describe is slightly exaggerated (I mean, you can't take all the people who don't buy into those ideas out of "society", but I do get your point and I do know that it's something that's been ingrained in our collective unconscious to some degree), I certainly understand and agree with your point.

It's not a reason to dislike the "fat is beautiful" movement as such. I you necessarily have to buy into your first premise to claim that someone or some group of people is beautiful.

But granted, I don't know much about the movement. If they present their case in this way: "We are not worthless! We are beautiful!", then I completely agree with you, even if they are just pointing out the fact that, to many men and women, big can very well be beautiful.
 
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Society judges women on their looks and men on how much money they make, I don't give a shit what arguments you want to give its just the truth.
 

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Remember when Mother Teresa won the Nobel prize, and everyone wanted to no if she's hot?

Okay, but seriously. I do think that what you describe is slightly exaggerated (I mean, you can't take all the people who don't buy into those ideas out of "society", but I do get your point and I do know that it's something that's been ingrained in our collective unconscious to some degree), I certainly understand and agree with your point.

It's not a reason to dislike the "fat is beautiful" movement as such. I you necessarily have to buy into your first premise to claim that someone or some group of people is beautiful.

But granted, I don't know much about the movement. If they present their case in this way: "We are not worthless! We are beautiful!", then I completely agree with you, even if they are just pointing out the fact that, to many men and women, big can very well be beautiful.
That's pretty much what they do, unfortunately. They are essentially attacking the wrong problem, barking up the wrong tree.
 

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That's pretty much what they do, unfortunately. They are essentially attacking the wrong problem, barking up the wrong tree.

In that case, I agree with your sentiment. And I'm sure you'll agree that a hell of a lot of groups are guilty of the exact same thing.
 
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Oxnard

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Society judges women on their looks and men on how much money they make, I don't give a shit what arguments you want to give its just the truth.
Parts of Europe and certainly Asia are pretty bad about "a man is only worth the size of his wallet," and I agree that aspect of sexist society is very harmful to men, but to be honest it is not much of an issue in America anymore except in certain regions, subcultures, age groups, etc.
 
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Parts of Europe and certainly Asia are pretty bad about "a man is only worth the size of his wallet," and I agree that aspect of sexist society is very harmful to men, but to be honest it is not much of an issue in America anymore except in certain regions, subcultures, age groups, etc.
Like a said I'm not going to argue and debate the point, what I said is the brutal truth.
 

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Yesterday, I saw a friend post a Facebook Status something along the lines of, "A real woman can do it on her own, but a real man won't let her." I hate that. First of all, sometimes it can't be done alone. This is a lesson I have had to learn the hard way. I'm terrible at asking for help, and worse at accepting it. Blech. Second of all, sometimes I'm handling it myself, whatever it is, and the LAST thing I want is the condescension of my man not letting me. And finally, what if he just can't help? Sometimes, doesn't it have to be enough that wants to?

Some time ago our fridge freezer needed to defrost. It was blocked by ice, so it couldn't close. When I came home, my girlfriend was already preparing to defrost the monster. I went to the kitchen and told her I'd help. She said "nah, I've got this, find something else to do an quit taking up space". But I would hear nothing of it. Let a man do a mans' job, woman! So while she started boiling water in preparation of the defrosting, I proceeded to sever and completely destroy the freezer with a large knife until freon had filled the room. The next day she had to help me carry the hazardous old thing to a large container.
 

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Like a said I'm not going to argue and debate the point, what I said is the brutal truth.
I think we can all agree that traditional sexist society also hurts men, but I think we can also agree that it hurts women more.

I hope this isn't one of those "men's rights" things where you feel the need to interject "Oh yeah, well men have it just as bad!" in any discussion about how society harms women.