Why is Britain in the EU?

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Ugghh! I almost wish I had voted UKIP.

A slight paraphrase I know, but surely this says it all:

"As long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under European rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself."

Modified version of the Declaration of Arbroath, 6 April 1320

I tend to think that if you force groups of people into large artificial units, their old allegiances stay intact just under the surface and eventually cause it to fragment (like the USSR and Yugoslavia). If Britain is subsumed into the EU too much and something approaching a superstate emerges - I can't imagine it would last forever, before old national feelings emerge and cause it to implode.

Free movement of people could cause things to become more confused though, I guess - but even so...
 

Jason

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My views on Europe have changed a lot over the years - I used to be a real enthusiast. But Europe has gone sour. I think you are right Joll that UK PMs have not really got to grips with Europe - either that or they were all wimps, both Conservative and Labour. We have been too keen on the advantages of a trading union and blind to the problems. Ethically the CAP of a few years ago was beyond any possible moral defense. It killed people. Future ages will surely see it as being as wrong as the slave trade was, and react with comparable disgust. I know CAP has been reformed, but it is still a stain on the collective morality of the EU nations - it is as if we have come up with the idea of a slave trade with some rights for the slaves and are trying to pretend that's enough progress. Margaret Thatcher was far too tame in her approach to the EU, and should have put a brick in her handbag! Then we have the democratic defecit. The EU is a weak and deeply compromised democracy. We see this day by day. Their latest anti-democratic idea is that they have a Centre Right leader for 2 years 6 months who will step down for a Socialist leader for 2 years 6 months, both pedalling much the same soft Socialism, which is not what the people of Europe voted for. The EU uses elections and referendums as a weapon. Vote the way the EU bureaucrats want once and that's it. Vote the wrong way and vote again. And again.

Your parallel Joll with the USSR and Yugoslavia is probably well made. The EU will fall apart - sooner or later, just as the anti-democratic and morally suspect USSR and Yugoslavia did. But how messy! At the moment the EU has won the public relations battle. Most people can't even be bothered to vote which suits the bureaucrats just fine, and few know enough about the EU to know just how corrupt and dangerous it is. The Low Countries think the EU is wonderful and cannot understand anyone who thinks otherwise. The oldest EEC countries - Low Countries, France, Germany, Italy - mostly love the EU (I know there is some dissent in Italy). But the periphery will break away sooner or later. I hope it is sooner. The ideal scenario would be for the UK to break away, followed by Iberia, Greece, the Balkans and Eastern Europe. I doubt the Euro will endure outside of the central nations - indeed on a different LPSG thread I suggested at the New Year that at least one Euro country would crash out by the end of the year. 5 months to go. Lets forge a new trading block based on morally defensible positions and response to the will of the people.
 
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I hope the tories dont end up ostracised in their new grouping - away from Merkel and Sarkozy's parties. Not really sure what the choice was though, because the EPP is staunchly federalist. Staying in would surely have meant agreeing to policies they are against?

Just noticed the UK Gov has endorsed Tony Blair's bid for EU Council President. Can't believe EU-obsessed Glenys Kinnock is our Europe minister - how is she going to stand up for the interests of Britain when she's so completely pro-EU, and in their pay to the tune of about 5 pensions?
The other current fave for EU President, is federalist and 'inner core' supporter, Jean-Claude Juncker.

I think the post is due to be created around Christmas if Lisbon is passed. Hope Tony doesn't managed to get himself 'crowned' on christmas day, a la Charlemagne, lol. :eek:
 

Reallyonlyme

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Who says we want to be in it? Last time our opinion was asked was back in the 70s when it was "The Common Market", basically a free trade arrangement. Nothing wrong with that. All nice and friendly.

More recently we were supposed to get a vote on the EU constitution. It was an election promise. When the constitution got rejected by some of the other countries they renamed it a treaty, and as such our govt says we don't get a vote, cos they promises a vote on the constitution, not a treaty. Even though it's over 90% the same!
The treaty keeps getting rejected by countries that have been allowed to vote. The trouble is the EU keep doing more PR and then representing it! Honestly, how can that be democratic, just keep representing the same thing until you get the answer you want?!

Since the 70s successive governments have sold us down the river. The EU is a financial black hole. It makes the expenses fiasco of the UK govt look amateurish in comparison.

Oh well, at least there is bugger all chance of the pro-EU Labour party remaining in power at the next election, so we can have the EU-sceptic conservatives instead.
The only problem is nobody seems to try to reverse the damage and try to pull us back. It will just stop under the Conservatives, and continue again when they screw up and labour get back in.

And I'm not British, I'm English/Welsh :)
 
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hud01

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Errm how is Britain in Europe, consult a map, Britain is a separate land mass.

I call myself different things on different occasions, by birth and ancestry I'm Welsh, my attitudes and values are English as I've lived here since being a small child.

Long Island is a separate land mass, so it is not part of the US? What a lame statement.
 
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UK is no. 2 debtor nation on the planet after US.

Who is poor who is rich actually ?

hahaha

The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU (after Germany), to the tune of at least £4 billion a year. This is due to rise by 2012 and could see us being the biggest net contributor, of between £7 and £12 billion a year.

While some countries have received huge payouts from Brussels each year (Ireland, Spain, etc.), the UK has payed in more than it gets out most - if not all - years since we joined. (Poland was due to receive £60 billion between 2007 and 2012 - Britain was expected to contribute more or less the same amount).
 

B_ccc888

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The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU (after Germany), to the tune of at least £4 billion a year. This is due to rise by 2012 and could see us being the biggest net contributor, of between £7 and £12 billion a year.

While some countries have received huge payouts from Brussels each year (Ireland, Spain, etc.), the UK has payed in more than it gets out most - if not all - years since we joined. (Poland was due to receive £60 billion between 2007 and 2012 - Britain was expected to contribute more or less the same amount).


Well don't complaint

BLUE STATES in the US also must give huge WELFARE to RED STATES.

That's the consequences of a UNION..............

UK can surely be out of EU, but don't expect any benefit comes with it.

EU can impose immigration and trade restriction for Britons and many others.
 

B_ccc888

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The UK is the 2nd largest net contributor to the EU (after Germany), to the tune of at least £4 billion a year. This is due to rise by 2012 and could see us being the biggest net contributor, of between £7 and £12 billion a year.

While some countries have received huge payouts from Brussels each year (Ireland, Spain, etc.), the UK has payed in more than it gets out most - if not all - years since we joined. (Poland was due to receive £60 billion between 2007 and 2012 - Britain was expected to contribute more or less the same amount).

Look at global statistics and facts dude.

USA and UK should follow Iceland and go bankrupt for sure.
 
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Look at global statistics and facts dude.

USA and UK should follow Iceland and go bankrupt for sure.

US and UK finances are in a mess, admittedly - so all the more reason for the UK not to be burdened by continuing massive payments into the EU (which will get bigger as the British rebate is scaled back). :)
 

Jason

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The statistics of the UK's payments to the EU and funds received are slippery. Almost everyone who refers to them seems to have a political point to make, and this seems to influence the statistics.

That said I think it is pretty much agreed that the UK does pay in more than it gets out, and has done for most or all of 30+ years. There are intangible benefits which may or may not make this payment worthwhile.

Given the dire state of the UK economy it may well be that this excess payment needs to be addressed. Is the EU willing to have Britain as a net beneficiary for 30 years or so? I think the answer is no. Should we therefore leave? Maybe. There are plenty who suggest terrible economic consequencies should this happen, but there are also examples of prosperous countries outside the EU (Norway, Switzerland) - and plenty of examples of dodgy economies within.

I think we also have issues of national identity which go beyond the financial argument. Britain is going to have economic difficulties for the next few decades. This will impact on the happiness of individuals. It may be that it would be easier to make people happy with a clear identity as an independent UK than as a state subsumed within the EU.

The more I think about the EU the more I feel we should leave. I feel this has gone beyond an economic argument about the prosperity of the UK. It is almost like the employee who resigns from an unethical and bullying company accepting that there will be financial problems. The UK should leave. We might be better off, but even if we aren't we should leave.
 
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The more I think about the EU the more I feel we should leave. I feel this has gone beyond an economic argument about the prosperity of the UK. It is almost like the employee who resigns from an unethical and bullying company accepting that there will be financial problems. The UK should leave. We might be better off, but even if we aren't we should leave.

I pretty much agree.
 
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Btw - incase anyone's interested, I find EUobserver to be a really good source of pretty unbiased info on EU/Brussels goings-on.
 

eurotop40

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there are also examples of prosperous countries outside the EU (Norway, Switzerland)
I do not think you can compare Norway and Switzerland to a larger European country like the UK. We are sorts of "niche products" that have been profiting of historical or geographical or resource-like "lucks". As soon as the conditions change I am sure these countries could no longer afford the luxury of staying out. Btw, Switzerland is pragmatically MUCH more aligned and EU-conform than the UK. For instance we are Schengen members, we have free circulation of EU-citizens etc. If the UK is a net payer to the EU and is complaining, then blame the UK politicians who are not effectively defending the interests of the UK. But they could do this without destroying an entity that - after all - has been granting peace and prosperity for 60 years (unless the UK and other countries like also Switzerland feel they might profit from a mess on the European continent...).
 

Jason

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eurotop40 is right that UK politicians have failed to defend effectively the interests of the UK. But it has happened, and we have to move on from the position we are now in.

eurotop40 is also right that Switzerland and Norway are special cases. Indeed there isn't a proper comparison for the idea of a UK outside the EU. Switzerland and Norway are put up as comparisons because there aren't any better.

eurotop40 is also right that the EU has brought peace and prosprity to the continent of Europe, and we should all think twice about breaking it up.

Three rights! But Britain still cannot accept the status quo of Britain's position with respect to the EU. What the people of the UK want is to step back from European integration; this much is clearly expressed at elections, and indeed there is probably a majority view that we should simply withdraw.

I think the options are:
1) Britain negotiates a new relationship with Europe. This is most easily done without ratification of the Lisbon treaty. However whether or not Lisbon has been ratified the new relationship should be produced. The bottom line for Britain is an end to net contributions from Britain, 100% veto over all EU legislation within the UK, no control of an EU president over the UK, total UK control of borders. Also up for discussion has to be the end of the CAP, the end of the Strasbourg circus and reforms of the EU parliamentary structures - for example a situation where UK MPs cannot on their own form a parliamentary group is not acceptable. Assuming Lisbon is ratified I think this has to be sorted within the context of leaving and negotiating some sort of special agreement. With a bit of luck Ireland would join the UK in this. The British Isles comprises two nation-states - the UK and Ireland, plus the British dependent territories of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man - Gibraltar is usually included in this list too (the dependent territories are outside the EU, and in view of their finance industries have significant economies). We need a solution for the two nations and three or four territories of the British Isles as a whole either completely outside the EU or semi-detached from Europe.
2) Britain wrecks the EU. I think this is the implied threat to get action on (1). There will be enormous pressure on UK politicians playing for popularity at home to do just this. I think we do have options of withholding money, taking unilateral action on the borders of the UK, encouraging countries including Poland to a more anti-EU status, bringing a court case to Brussels on the CAP, refusing to implement EU laws.

I do not know whether the UK would be richer or poorer in either of the above scenarios. I don't think this is a primary concern of the people of Britain. There is a grumbling anti-European mood which goes beyond considerations of prosperity. The EU has a way of working which is simply not British and which strikes at our culture and identity, and therefore at the happiness of people within the UK.

For the EU countries I think there is more to be gained by accommodating the UK than in creating a fight. It must be possible to create a political framework which would satisfy everyone. Britain as a part of a European super-state is not an option.
 
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eurotop40 is right that UK politicians have failed to defend effectively the interests of the UK. But it has happened, and we have to move on from the position we are now in.

Glenys Kinnock as Europe Minister, and Mandelson pulling the strings in Whitehall are not going to help matters much. :redface:

I agree very much with the ideas put forward in option 1. I think we do - very soon - need a proper, honest and open debate on what Europe does, doesn't and might in the future involve and what Britain as a whole wants to do about it. Hopefully we might get something approaching that chance if the Tories get in; it'll be made more difficult if Lisbon is already ratified, but the issue still needs to be dealt with as it won't go away.

It must be possible to create a political framework which would satisfy everyone. Britain as a part of a European super-state is not an option.

I agree, I think that's probably the bottom line for the UK.
 

eurotop40

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It may be that it would be easier to make people happy with a clear identity as an independent UK than as a state subsumed within the EU.
Hum, do you still believe in these concepts from the 19th century? Do you think you can go back to a purely white society from the multicultural melting pot you seem to have due to colonization?
On the other hand, today large blocks seem to be more successful than each tiny country growing their little plants in their own garden. Some politicians predict that in a few decades the world will be run by China, Russia, India and Brazil, and maybe still a little bit by the US (if they are not totally bankrupt and restart producing their own goods and not outsourcing everything except the war).
If Britain still wants to cling to the glamour of 007, the secret service at Her Majesty service bla bla, it is probably absolutely fine with continental Europeans. I guess the EU needs Britain less than the other way round. For instance, the Euro currency is definitely a success (in spite of all skepticism) and did not need the UK to participate.
 
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Hmmm - I don't think people need to be shot down in flames if they don't agree with the standard euro-opinion that everyone is fed these days...