why is the Vatican so ornamented

[Drifterwood]

The Church is much more than its politics and grey-areaed dogmas. It's involved in the world and is an organization, which means that it does succumb to human nature in many facets. I do believe, though, that she has sufficiently condemned the pedophiliac behaviors of its priests.

Remember to always look at the most holy monks and nuns to see the true beauty of the Church, not the vasty majority of unenlightened priests, bishops and laypeople.

Yes, grey-areaed dogmas plague the Church. I do not agree with all its teachings, but does that make the fundamental teachings of the Church wrong or untrue. How can any religion have perfect dogma in an imperfect world? When confused, just read the opinions of some of the monks and nuns for more clarity.

A very holy monk who is adored by the Vatican just said a few months ago that some of the Catholic saints may have been gay. Bless his heart! He truly is an enlightened man. He exemplies the true beauty of the Church, but he also transcends it. Could you imagine a conservative Protestant saying that?

So let me get your logic right here BB. Because the world is a rotten place, then the earthly church will reflect that. But because there is the occasional holy person then everything else is OK.

It isn't really a defense is it?

Unless of course you are making the rules.

 

[2322]

Jason:

You allude to a quote:

which suggests you are, in fact, quoting from some Church document sanctioning murder.

What document are you quoting?

I'm paraphrasing the catechism (the section I quoted earlier) there because it outlines when killing another human is acceptable in the eyes of the church while taking into account the history of the church in such matters.

 

[eurotop40]

Drifterwood:
There is an italian saying that sounds roughly so: "I know that my mother is not a "saint person", but she is always my mother".
For many Catholics our Church may have made a lot of mistakes and is definitely imperfect, but it is always our Church.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Could you imagine a conservative Catholic saying that?

Is that an actual argument?

Don't get us started on the delicate topic of sainthood and requisite "miracles", for that is undeniably the most embarrassing stigma of the RCC.

No, I cannot imagine any real conservative Protestant saying that you can be gay and like a saint. All conservative Protestants say that you are NOT born gay as it always a choice. The Catholic Church now believes that people are born gay and have no control over their sexual orientation. Now "living" a gay lifestyle is a totally different story...:biggrin1:

I could imagine a Buddhist saying what this monk said.

 

[BIGBULL29]

So let me get your logic right here BB. Because the world is a rotten place, then the earthly church will reflect that. But because there is the occasional holy person then everything else is OK.

It isn't really a defense is it?

Unless of course you are making the rules.

The conservative Protestants where I live are rotten people, just like a lot of the Catholics are. They hide behind religion and are nothing but hyprocrites who spew hate.

So, to your answer question, man corrupts religion, not God. And only a few dear Catholics really represent pure Catholicism. But does that in itself make it less true?

 

[Qua]

They oppose contraception, period, even...if one spouse has a potentially fatal STD.

This is untrue. It's just about the only exception; if one partner in a marraige has a life-threatening disease that could be transferred through sexual contact contraceptives are grudgingly accepted.

Also, please note the symantic difference between contraceptives and contraception. The former prevents fertilization, the 2nd implantation. The Catholic Church is vehemently opposed to the 2nd because if life is considered to begin at conception, then preventing a fertilized egg from implanting is essentially an abortion.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

The Church is much more than its politics and grey-areaed dogmas. It's involved in the world and is an organization, which means that it does succumb to human nature in many facets. I do believe, though, that she has sufficiently condemned the pedophiliac behaviors of its priests.

Remember to always look at the most holy monks and nuns to see the true beauty of the Church, not the vasty majority of unenlightened priests, bishops and laypeople.

Yes, grey-areaed dogmas plague the Church. I do not agree with all its teachings, but does that make the fundamental teachings of the Church wrong or untrue. How can any religion have perfect dogma in an imperfect world? When confused, just read the opinions of some of the monks and nuns for more clarity.

A very holy monk who is adored by the Vatican just said a few months ago that some of the Catholic saints may have been gay. Bless his heart! He truly is an enlightened man. He exemplies the true beauty of the Church, but he also transcends it. Could you imagine a conservative Protestant saying that?

For me the real question about the catholic church is whether it is true or not. It's my understanding that a person needs to rely on faith to make heads or tails of a complicated and quite silly dogmatic system. Three persons in one divine being? Transubstantiation? The Immaculate Conception? All this stuff is quite silly and meaningless. But catholics are required to believe it as the truth which is stated in the Nicean Creed.

Also like most monotheistic religions christianity presupposes a duality in the world. There's the supernatural or divine realm and then the lower, or natural realm. This is simply a form of Platonism which the church stole from the greeks centuries ago. There's nothing to prove that there are two realms of being. So therefore the concept of what is "holy" or divine makes no sense. If people help others, are compassionate and kind, it doesn't mean that they are holy. It means that they are just expressing a form of human empathy. All human beings have that capacity. It's in our genetics. I happen to know something about Buddhist monks. Actually my uncle is one, and he's no more special than anyone else. He does a lot to help others but I don't know if it's because he's holy. I'm sure he would say not. BTW Buddhist monks don't believe in God.

So without the catholic church, people would still be moral and compassionate. The church just adds a layer of superstition to the natural world that creates confusion and fear from my point of view.

 

[eurotop40]

So without the catholic church, people would still be moral and compassionate.

Let's call it just "Christianity" for once, let's go back to the times before scisms happened. Are you so sure that people would still be moral and compassionate without Christianity??? Sorry, NO

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Let's call it just "Christianity" for once, let's go back to the times before scisms happened. Are you so sure that people would still be moral and compassionate without Christianity??? Sorry, NO

Yes, I do think they would. After all there are other spiritual traditions besides christianity. Buddhism for instance as well as Hinduism.

 

[eurotop40]

I don't expect a lot of humanity from people that adore for instance rats.
And this is the typical self-contempting and romantic attitude of certain westerners that think of being the worst and that other cultures - if left alone - would be so-o-o-o human and nice. Well, many of them are NOT. See how kind to each other certain asian people are (PR of China etc. ... sorry I am not being politically correct, but I really don't care... political correctness pushed to the extreme is absolutely stupid).

 

[BIGBULL29]

For me the real question about the catholic church is whether it is true or not. It's my understanding that a person needs to rely on faith to make heads or tails of a complicated and quite silly dogmatic system. Three persons in one divine being? Transubstantiation? The Immaculate Conception? All this stuff is quite silly and meaningless. But catholics are required to believe it as the truth which is stated in the Nicean Creed.

Also like most monotheistic religions christianity presupposes a duality in the world. There's the supernatural or divine realm and then the lower, or natural realm. This is simply a form of Platonism which the church stole from the greeks centuries ago. There's nothing to prove that there are two realms of being. So therefore the concept of what is "holy" or divine makes no sense. If people help others, are compassionate and kind, it doesn't mean that they are holy. It means that they are just expressing a form of human empathy. All human beings have that capacity. It's in our genetics. I happen to know something about Buddhist monks. Actually my uncle is one, and he's no more special than anyone else. He does a lot to help others but I don't know if it's because he's holy. I'm sure he would say not. BTW Buddhist monks don't believe in God.

So without the catholic church, people would still be moral and compassionate. The church just adds a layer of superstition to the natural world that creates confusion and fear from my point of view.

Yes, some Buddhist monks do believe in God, depending on what school of Buddhism he belongs to.

No, I didn't say that all monk and nuns were extremely holy or enlightened.

Christian beliefs brought a lot of civilization to an a horribly barbaric world, despite all the bloodshood and sins done in its name. Who else would have done that? The ancient Greeks and Romans tried, making a tiny bit of a progress perhaps, but nothing in comparison to Christianity. Not even Buddhists had that ability...

We can argue forever about basic Christians beliefs. Nothing can be proven and everything goes back to faith, as is the case with all religions. And I quote St. Thomas Aquinas: "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Yes, some Buddhist monks do believe in God, depending on what school of Buddhism he belongs to.

No, I didn't say that all monk and nuns were extremely holy or enlightened.

Christian beliefs brought a lot of civilization to an a horribly barbaric world, despite all the bloodshood and sins done in its name. Who else would have done that? The ancient Greeks and Romans tried, making a tiny bit of a progress perhaps, but nothing in comparison to Christianity. Not even Buddhists had that ability...

We can argue forever about basic Christians beliefs. Nothing can be proven and everything goes back to faith, as is the case with all religions. And I quote St. Thomas Aquinas: "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."

To me faith is the ultimate delusion (from a Buddhist POV). Also to be quite clear: NO Buddhist monks believe in God unless they're also christian. I think you should read something about Buddhism before you make these silly assumptions.

 

[deleted213967]

Let's call it just "Christianity" for once, let's go back to the times before scisms happened. Are you so sure that people would still be moral and compassionate without Christianity??? Sorry, NO

Morality is to Christianity what:

a. Pesto sauce is to the Flying Spaghetti Monster
b. Auto-da-fé is to Faith
c. Crusades are to Peace Missions
d. Miracles are to Mirages
e. Condoms are to STDs
f. Doctors Without Borders are to Illegal Immigrants

 

[BIGBULL29]

To me faith is the ultimate delusion (from a Buddhist POV). Also to be quite clear: NO Buddhist monks believe in God unless they're also christian. I think you should read something about Buddhism before you make these silly assumptions.

They are a minority, but they do exist. For example, Shin and Pure Land Buddhists do believe in a deity and worship it.

To make things even clearer, most Buddhists believe that a deity may exist, but it's not important to focus on that phenomenon. If there is, there is, and if there is not, there is not. It's irrelevant.

 

[Jason]

:

"Adolf Hitler,

We, Pius XII, Pontifex Maxiums, do adjudge, condemn, and proclaim you and your government anathema: and call upon the people of Germany, and especially the Catholic faithful, to resist your government and obstruct its unlawful goals.

So too do we, by the authority of Christ, render a judgment of excommunication against you. We summon you to Rome, to be received into our presence, to be instructed of your errors, to hear your confession, and, God willing, be restored to the grace imparted to you at your baptism.

Yours truly,

Pius XII (Mrs.)

​

This is quite a good letter! Writing something on these lines and showing it to the world should have been a moral imperative for the pope. Additionally moral guidance should have been given to Roman Catholics worldwide stating that the holocaust was wrong. Both in Germany and (especially) in overwhelmingly-Catholic Italy this would have had an effect. Some people would have put their religion before their country, and many people would have been less willing to support the actions of the nazis, and passive resistance can go a long way. The Pope's physical location in a fortress in the centre of Rome is significant, as his opposition would have caused enormous difficulties to Italy. Would they have tried to silence him by force?

The Roman Catholic church displayed institutional anti-semitism throughout the 1930s which helped create a climate where the holocaust could happen. During the 2ndWW Pius XII failed to condemn the holocaust or the nazis, in doing so giving what many regard as considerable moral support to Hitler. Indeed John Cornwell's best selling book on Pius XII has the title "Hitler's Pope". Subsequently the Roman Catholic church has failed to take proper responsibility for its wrong actions. The 1999 International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission tried to work out just what Pius XII did and didn't do, but failed to report with the Jewish scholars stating that the Vatican refused to help in with-holding appropriate access to archives.

Recently Benedict XVI has praised Pius XII. Just as Germany had to own up to its terrible actions in the 2ndWW, so the Roman Catholic church needs to own up to its complicity so that the world can avoid repeats of wrong actions. The culture of church before everything is what led to the intitutional failure to act to resolve issues of paedophile priests, and this culture should change. Regretably Benedict XVI seems to lack the moral fibre to act, and is instead actively doing ill by trying to resucitate the reputation of Pius XII.


​

 

[deleted213967]

Recently Benedict XVI has praised Pius XII. Just as Germany had to own up to its terrible actions in the 2ndWW, so the Roman Catholic church needs to own up to its complicity so that the world can avoid repeats of wrong actions. The culture of church before everything is what led to the intitutional failure to act to resolve issues of paedophile priests, and this culture should change. Regretably Benedict XVI seems to lack the moral fibre to act, and is instead actively doing ill by trying to resucitate the reputation of Pius XII.


[/INDENT]

Ratzinger was in fact ordained by cardinal Faulhaber of Munich, whose half-assed condemnation of Nazism is still being debated, the one who ordered a Te Deum in his cathedral in connection with Hitler's narrow assassination escape.

 

[D_Deceptivus Wrongpeter]

You are making me sick.

Good, because I'm not happy until you're not happy.

Seriously -- I never attacked you, never questioned your motives or your sincerity, and my snark factor was down around 15%.

I cannot fathom your replies to me. However, if you are really that fragile, you should probably refrain from these kinds of posts.

 

[D_Deceptivus Wrongpeter]

This is quite a good letter! Writing something on these lines and showing it to the world should have been a moral imperative for the pope.

Thank you, I'll be happy to come into your parlour.

Hitler was already rounding up Catholic priests and Protestant ministers that were problems and sending them to the concentration camps. Catholic bishops were speaking out against Hitler, and guess what? The C.Camp guards made a point of abusing both the ministers and the priests in retaliation... and then the ministers would abuse the priests and rant "Why can't your big mouth bishops keep their damned mouths shut?"

Hint: That's why it's called the French underground: public resistance was publicly punished.

Putting all the manufactured, theoretical speculations about passive resistance aside as impossible to verify, the result of any letter to Hitler would have increased the death count. That's how the Nazi system worked, right?

That's a pretty expensive beau geste, and if Pius HAD done it, you would be here condemning his hubris and bad judgment that cost the lives of thousands.

As for what Cromwell says, it doesn't matter cause he went in to prove a point: anti Catholic books make a lot of money.

If he wanted to do humanity a service, there are other religions right now that need serious expose work as Theo Van Gogh tried to do. However Cromwell picked his enemy carefully, made a lot of money, and is adored by the left.

No doubt, he was sipping fruity drinks in Barcelona while people were stepping over Theo's twitching corpse in a Dutch gutter.

 

[Jason]

Bounce Bear, I agree that the "what ifs" of history quickly become imponderables. What if the UK had not declared war in 1939? What if the USSR had entered the war in 1939 instead of 1941? What if Japan had not been attacked with nuclear bombs in 1945? We can speculate, but none of us actually know.

It seems to me that we are thrown back onto the concept of doing the right action because it is the right action, for otherwise we're into the mirky logic of the end justifies the means. The actions and non-actions of Pius XII frequently breach moral guidance, whether you see that as coming from Christianity, from another religion, or from humanist ideas. My view is that he should have acted.

If he had acted then there would have been an effect. Just possibly Bounce Bear you are right and the effect would have been to make things worse. Just possibly I am right and it would have made things a lot better. Or maybe there would have been little difference. We don't know. What we saw from Pius XII was not in keeping with Christianity. Today the Roman Catholic church seems to be trying to rewrite his reputation, basically saying that because the RC church think he was great we all should do, and this is frightening. For decades they failed to accept that there could be thousands of paedophile priests in their church. Now they seem unable to accept that the priest who as pope led them during the 2nd WW did not act in accordance with the principles of Christianity.

 

[dreamer20]

BTW Buddhist monks don't believe in God.

Yes, some Buddhist monks do believe in God, depending on what school of Buddhism he belongs to.

NO Buddhist monks believe in God unless they're also christian. I think you should read something about Buddhism before you make these silly assumptions.

How odd that he didn't tell you this Hung Jon:

45

However, I can't be a Buddhist for the following reasons:

3) I believe strongly in a god from which all things come.

bigbull29 were you trolling HJ?