why is the Vatican so ornamented

7

798686

Guest
Part of me says that the argument "liquidise your assets and do something about poverty and suffering" is too simple. And part of me says that the argument is so simple that it is overwhelming. How can the Vatican justify its enormous wealth when the faith they profess tells them to love others, tells them that charity is good? I'm not suggesting that they should all be living in poverty, but there has to be a balance between poverty and the obscene opulence of the Vatican.

Maybe this was part of the problem ppl had with it in the Reformation - as well as feeling they were getting away from biblical truth, many reformers were appalled by the greed and endemic corruption within the church - such as the selling of indulgences, etc.

BigBull - I agree, not everything the catholic church, or religion has done is evil. There are many many extremely sincere people in the various religions trying their best to live a good life and please God.

But there are also horrible atrocities involved with it - such as the inquisition, etc - where millions of people who opposed catholicism were slaughtered or tortured.
It seems like when ppl take things into their own hands, and start trying to 'please' God by doing extreme things that actually run contrary to the principles of Christianity, that the problems start.

I also agree that you can take a lot from 'righteous' ppl in various religions. John Paul II seemed to do a lot of good. But so have a lot of other people - Mandela etc. Religion does inspire ppl to great things sometimes, but that doesn't necessarily mean the teachings are true, I guess. :redface: [Ramble over].
 

Jason

Superior Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Aug 26, 2004
Posts
15,642
Media
62
Likes
5,034
Points
433
Location
London (Greater London, England)
Verification
View
Sexuality
90% Gay, 10% Straight
Gender
Male
... I agree, not everything the catholic church, or religion has done is evil. There are many many extremely sincere people in the various religions trying their best to live a good life and please God.

But there are also horrible atrocities involved with it - such as the inquisition, etc - where millions of people who opposed catholicism were slaughtered or tortured...

An interesting ramble! Not everything the Roman Catholic church has done is evil - I'm sure you are right. But there is a rather substantial charge sheet against the Roman Catholic church. These include:
  • The inquisition. The crusades. These are now very old history of course.
  • Pius XII, called "Hitler's Pope". Failed to condemn the holocaust, when condemnation may reasonably have hastened the end of the war.
  • Promotion of non-biblical doctrines which cause distress to believers, eg the idea that an unchristened baby who dies goes to limbo.
  • Policy of opposition to barrier contraceptive that has caused millions of AIDS related deaths.
  • Policy of opposition to barrier contraception that has promoted massive over-population and poverty, particularly in South America.
  • Massive institutional failure to tackle paedophile priests, including high level complicity to permit priests to continue to abuse children.
  • Cult-like manipulation of individuals through promulgation of the (non-biblical) idea that multiple sacraments and confession are needed to go to heaven / avoid hell - and only Roman Catholic priests can administer these.
If the Roman Catholic church were a nation state it would be facing international condemnation for crimes against humanity. If the present pope were an ordinary secular leader he would face trial and imprisonment for the actions he has condoned and continues to condone.

Maybe not everything the Roman Catholic church does is evil. But it seems to me it is a curate's egg.
 

DiscoBoy

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Posts
2,633
Media
0
Likes
106
Points
208
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
A friend of mine visited Rome some time ago and came back with pictures of "Skull & Bones" somewhere on the architecture. I thought that that was...interesting.
 
D

deleted213967

Guest
Surely a respectable building that represents the heirarchy of christianity only needs to be a set of bungalows, why is it so adorned with lavish surroundings and ornate furnishings, surely they should not be profiting from the charity of their flock when the world is so hungry in places (not my house, i got chocolate).

Evil, evil city.

Don't mind me, just ranting as i need once in a while :rolleyes:

Think of it as God's Embassy To Earth, with all the pomps and circumstance that should pertain thereto.
 
D

deleted213967

Guest
  • Promotion of non-biblical doctrines which cause distress to believers, eg the idea that an unchristened baby who dies goes to limbo.

Didn't you know? B16 abolished Limbo by papal fiat a couple of years ago...

Such power!

P.S.: Does that mean that ALL the previous successors to Saint Peter were wrong?
 

TXgirl77

1st Like
Joined
Feb 24, 2008
Posts
64
Media
3
Likes
1
Points
91
Location
Houston, TX
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
I was raised Catholic and have wondered about this very question myself. Because of the greed I saw, the fact that I had to tell a priest my sins (NONE of his business), many times they were rude and it seemed so fear-based that it turned me against religion totally. This was apparent to me even in elementary school, even though my mother forced me to attend. Talk about BORING, too!!

When my mom started dumping us off, my sister and I got wise and instead of actually going inside the church - we took the money for the collection basket and walked to the corner store to buy candy and cokes! :eek:
 

t1ctac

Expert Member
Verified
Gold
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Posts
196
Media
23
Likes
196
Points
373
Location
DFW (Texas, United States)
Verification
View
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Male
Surely a respectable building that represents the heirarchy of christianity only needs to be a set of bungalows, why is it so adorned with lavish surroundings and ornate furnishings, surely they should not be profiting from the charity of their flock when the world is so hungry in places (not my house, i got chocolate).

Evil, evil city.

Don't mind me, just ranting as i need once in a while :rolleyes:

Why are banks? Surely they only need a computer to take your money.
 

Principessa

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Posts
18,660
Media
0
Likes
144
Points
193
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Surely a respectable building that represents the heirarchy of christianity only needs to be a set of bungalows, why is it so adorned with lavish surroundings and ornate furnishings, surely they should not be profiting from the charity of their flock when the world is so hungry in places (not my house, i got chocolate).

Evil, evil city.

Don't mind me, just ranting as i need once in a while :rolleyes:
The Vatican does not represent the hierarchy of Christianity. It represents the head of the Catholic church. There is a huge difference. When devotees of other Christian denominations want to visit the origins of Christianity, and walk where Jesus walked they go to Jerusalem, Bethlehem, or Israel. They do not go to Rome. :cool:

I like you Mitchymo but these simplistic, rhetorical questions are really starting to get on my nerves. :irked:
 

BIGBULL29

Worshipped Member
Joined
Apr 24, 2006
Posts
7,619
Media
52
Likes
14,296
Points
343
Location
State College (Pennsylvania, United States)
Sexuality
Pansexual
Gender
Male
Well, Protestants don't like art in the church. So they are never going to be guilty of that. But you bet they'll put the best furnace money can buy in that church of theirs (yes, keep it practical, Mr. Puritan). Relgious art is sinful according to a lot of Evangelical Christians. Catholics are statue worshippers and Orthodox Christians are icon worshippers.

I know I'm on a sexual forum, but I think it's sad when people cannot see beyond the politics and atrocities of the Catholic Church. The good that some of its saints have done for the greater good of humanity is proof of the beautiful and transformative power of religion. Sadly, even most Protestants are unaware of the lives of many of the Catholic saints and the incredible love and sacrifices they made for the betterment of society.

Honestly, I don't see too many non-religious people helping the world's poor just for the sake of helping the poor (rich folks writing out checks doesn't count here, albeit nice). Who's mainly working with the sick and the dying around the world. Buddhists monks, Catholic nuns, etc. I don't know many atheists like Mother Theresa or St. Francis.

I think that that most Christians don't really know who Jesus was and maybe this is why they are mocked so much. Perhaps it is deserved.
 
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Posts
3,028
Media
0
Likes
30
Points
123
The Catholic church for me is the epitomy of organized religion. (Just an opinion)
I have nothing against Catholcism per se', one could argue until the cows come home about passed indescretions, but that would only be considered finger pointing and accomplish nothing.
I prefer to think it does more good than harm.

I can understand why they built such lavish surroundings, with the intent of reflecting something glorious and heavenly. Just a hunch.
 

mitchymo

Expert Member
Joined
May 11, 2008
Posts
4,131
Media
0
Likes
100
Points
133
Location
England (United Kingdom)
Sexuality
100% Gay, 0% Straight
Gender
Male
The Vatican does not represent the hierarchy of Christianity. It represents the head of the Catholic church. There is a huge difference. When devotees of other Christian denominations want to visit the origins of Christianity, and walk where Jesus walked they go to Jerusalem, Bethlehem, or Israel. They do not go to Rome. :cool:

I like you Mitchymo but these simplistic, rhetorical questions are really starting to get on my nerves. :irked:

Stop nit-picking, it is understood clear enough what i mean, you would not make a great teacher njqt466 :rolleyes:
 

Principessa

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Posts
18,660
Media
0
Likes
144
Points
193
Sexuality
100% Straight, 0% Gay
Gender
Female
Well, Protestants don't like art in the church. So they are never going to be guilty of that. But you bet they'll put the best furnace money can buy in that church of theirs (yes, keep it practical, Mr. Puritan). Relgious art is sinful according to a lot of Evangelical Christians. Catholics are statue worshippers and Orthodox Christians are icon worshippers.
We don't worship furnaces. :rolleyes: :tongue:
As far as statue and icon worship being perceived as sinful that's because it goes against the first of the ten commandments. It's not something Protestants made up.
Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
[/quote] I know I'm on a sexual forum, but I think it's sad when people cannot see beyond the politics and atrocities of the Catholic Church. The good that some of its saints have done for the greater good of humanity is proof of the beautiful and transformative power of religion. Sadly, even most Protestants are unaware of the lives of many of the Catholic saints and the incredible love and sacrifices they made for the betterment of society[/QUOTE] Do tell, :rolleyes: As an art historian who has studied the Baroque and Rennaissance periods I like to think I have a better than average knowledge of the saints. Many like St. Catherine of Siena were holy anorexics. I'm not sure mental illness combined with an eating disorder qualify as incredible love and sacrifice made for the betterment of society. :tongue:

Honestly, I don't see too many non-religious people helping the world's poor just for the sake of helping the poor (rich folks writing out checks doesn't count here, albeit nice). Who's mainly working with the sick and the dying around the world. Buddhists monks, Catholic nuns, etc. I don't know many atheists like Mother Theresa or St. Francis.
I admit that I don't have any friends IRL who are atheists; but I don't think their lack of faith in a higher power means that they are incapable of being charitable in word and deed. :no:

I think that that most Christians don't really know who Jesus was and maybe this is why they are mocked so much. Perhaps it is deserved.[/
QUOTE]:mad: How arrogant and ignorant of you to think that Catholics are the only Christians who help those less fortunate. :irked: The United Methodist Church has numerous charitable groups and missionaries thoughout the USA and the world. In addition, Lutherans, Baptists, and Presbyterians, all do great things through their mission work around the world.:cool:

The United Methodist faith is deeply rooted in the Scripture and in the basic beliefs of all Christians. Out of that theology and the faith have grown some specific actions that mark United Methodists as Christians engaged in ministry to the world. The early members of the groups that eventually became The United Methodist Church
  • took strong stands on issues such as slavery, smuggling, and humane treatment of prisoners;
  • established institutions for higher learning;
  • started hospitals and shelters for children and the elderly;
  • founded Goodwill Industries in 1902;
  • became actively involved in efforts for world peace;
  • adopted a Social Creed and Social Principles to guide them as they relate to God’s world and God’s people;
  • participated with other religious groups in ecumenical efforts to be in mission.
 
2

2322

Guest
Finally! A subject I know something about!

You can't study art history without coming across the Vatican. To look at the Vatican without context is pointless.

You've probably heard of Augustine of Hippo, not only a saint but also a revered Doctor of the Church. There are hundreds of saints, but fewer than 40 Doctors of the Church. To become one, a person has to have produced a work profoundly insightful and unique, worthy of study by all Catholics for its ability to inspire faith.

Augustine was an early father of the church, living in the fourth century AD. His most profound work is a book entitled, City of God. In the book, Augustine describes the splendors of heaven and uses the metaphor of palaces to describe the spiritual beauty and love one will feel if one should go to heaven when one dies.

City of God had an inestimably enormous influence on the philosophy of the early Christian church and the Catholic and Orthodox churches of the present day. It is a foundational document of faith because it describes a heaven of such endless joy, harmony, satisfaction, and love that the world had literally never encountered before.

Faiths prior to City of God really had no concept of an afterlife of perfect happiness. Both the Greeks and the Romans had an afterlife but they saw it as a shadowy world where one lived much as one does on Earth, though some would be rewarded with more relative happiness than others. The Egyptians imagined the afterlife was much like earthly life and so did everyone else. Pagan faiths had various ideas ranging from the Valhalla of the Vikings to reincarnation to reunification with loved ones, but none imagined an afterlife that remotely approached what City of God described. As a result, City of God became one of the key arsenals in spreading the Christian faith. It made all the prayer, tithes, and sacraments worth the effort. Many pagan faiths talked about the happiness men would have in heaven, but City of God offered even women an equal place before God.

Now once you had City of God, what else was there to do? It's rather easy. You re-created the City of God as close as you could possibly imagine here on Earth by building churches that replicated that City of God as closely as possible. At that point, you work your mojo and hire the best architects you can find and describe what it is you want.

Churches were to be cruciform to remind the faithful of the sacrifice of Jesus. There were to be grand entrance doors replicating the gates of heaven. There would be two other side doors and a forecourt in the Roman style to prepare the faithful and would-be converts for the spiritual experience to be found within. Then you would raise the nave as high as possible to replicate heaven above, you would have a large chancel for the high altar. Along the north and south aisles you would have chapels dedicated to various popular saints. A clerestory filled with windows would allow light to filter down into the nave as if the radiance of God himself were illuminating the interior.

The St. Peter's Basilica and surrounding buildings are not the originals. Emperor Constantine, a Christian convert, commissioned the original building in the early 300s and it was not nearly as lavish as the St. Peter's of today nor as large. It did have the finest mosaic work in the world, an artform at which the Romans have yet to find peer, but the building was relatively small with a ceiling of only 100 feet. It also used a lot of wood.

There are a few surviving paintings showing the interior and the plans are still around. The problem with St. Peter's as it was built, was that right after the Roman Empire fell, the people who knew how not only to build but to maintain such a monumental structure disappeared. When the popes driven out of Rome to Avignon, so did their treasury and St. Peter's was largely abandoned. When they returned to Rome in the late 1400s, St. Peter's was in horrible shape.

That's when Pope Julius II, himself a warrior pope with vast reserves of wealth, decided that a refurb was in order and like many refurbs today, every architect he consulted said the same thing, "take it down." It was not lost on Julius that all over Europe the Romanesque style popularized in the early 1100s by Abbot Suger of St. Denis was all the rage with many Romanesque style churches looking far grander than sad old St. Peter's. Worse, the new Gothic style had been developed allowing for massive windows, clerestories, and complex vaulting systems which essentially created screens of stained glass windows that simply showered the eyes with astonishing beauty as the heights of nave ceilings soared to 150 feet.

With that, any idea of preserving the old St. Peter's was doomed and, as if on cue, Michelangelo appeared to design the new structure. By the time Michelangelo appeared, the Gothic style was beginning to wane and he wanted something unique but gigantic and broad. Gothic was great for tall and narrow, but a failure at building broad because all the weight of the roof and the walls had to be supported by outside buttresses. So Michelangelo essentially used Gothic and Romanesque elements with Italianate styles to create something altogether new and that newness was a nave of unprecedented size with a spectacular dome that would be the largest in the world except for the Duomo in Florence.

Look at what St. Peter's was competing with: Chartres, Notre Dame, Amiens, Seville, Cologne, Beauvais, York, and a whole host of churches which were far more, in the public and church's view, closer to the ideal of the Heavenly Jerusalem, the City of God, as envisioned by St. Augustine.

You had to be there to get it. Few people even had glass windows when the great cathedrals of Europe were being planned and built. Fewer still had cut stone homes, next to none had marble floors, walls, mosaics, frescoes, statuary, and NONE had stained glass or 150 foot ceilings. In fact, to see a building over four or five stories high was exceptionally rare. Most people lived in single-floor buildings with towns building no more than 3-4 stories. And these places were tiny.

Continued......
 
2

2322

Guest
Further, people of this era had little concept of imagination. The vast majority could not read and the only grand buildings they might see were castles or lordly palaces. Northern Italy, The Netherlands, and other prosperous areas had grand public places, maybe some large buildings of a type, but nothing began to approach a gothic cathedral church whose spire would be by far the tallest thing for miles upon miles. To equate these churches with Disneyland or Versailles is not far off base. They were spectacular beyond imagination, How they even managed to stand up (or in the case of Beauvais, didn't) was a complete mystery to people who knew post-and-beam construction if they knew anything about construction at all. The windows streaming in light of blue, red, yellow, green, and gold could not possibly be imagined. Combined with boy choirs singing perpetually, incense, and intricate floor mosaics, the Gothic cathedral was simply awe inspiring.

Cathedrals of this size told a story. Pilgrimage was a big business in the medieval era and people would come from all over Europe to visit the great cathedrals much like Americans do a grand tour of them and/or palaces today. As the vast bulk of these people were illiterate, the churches were all built with a very standard layout to ease flow of pilgrim traffic. One side of the church spelled out the liturgy of the Church while the other side told the Gospel. To do this, windows and mosaics or frescoes were fashioned to show scenes from the Bible. The transept doors would have architraves with one side showing the horrors of Hell and the other showing the glories of Heaven. All along the aisles were small chapels where pilgrims could pray to popular saints and leave donations. There would be Stations of the Cross to pray, and a Lady Chapel to say the rosary. The pilgrims would enter one door and leave the other. Regular celebrants in the center of the nave would not be disturbed by the pilgrim traffic along the aisles and the narthex, the holdover from the Roman courtyard, would allow people to hang their travel hoods and dirty shoes (one did these things barefoot) while preparing the faithful for the wonders inside. The best cathedrals were huge moneymakers and they paid for themselves rather quickly despite the fact many took hundreds of years to complete.

St. Peter's was to change all that. St. Peter's was less a pilgrim church than a summation of all a church should be. Michelangelo's design was changed and changed again by successive architects over the years of its building, but the essential character was not. There were no side aisles, no giant flying buttresses. It's windows would be huge but that was because the building itself would be enormous, over 4 million square feet in volume. To prove itself as the greatest church ever built, it had to be like nothing anyone had ever seen and as the burial place for every pope since St. Peter, it had to evoke the splendor of heaven as closely as possible using every technology available. This one church had to leave absolutely no doubt in the mind of the faithful that all that contrition, all those prayers, all that faith, forgiveness, all the poxes, wars, dead children, famines, plagues, and short lives, that ALL of the suffering of life as a Christian would be worth the reward which awaited in the end.

It also serves to add that European rulers of this time all ruled in the name of the Catholic Church. Since Charlemagne was crowned in old St. Peter's, it was usually the job of the Pope (or a Cardinal) to go about crowing the heads of Europe in the name of God. To exude the necessary authority, the simple robe of a Franciscan would not do. Instead, popes would have to reflect the glory of God on Earth as credibly and opulently as possible. St. Peter's, as their seat of papal authority, had to do the same thing. It had to leave no doubt in the mind of the common man that the pope and his home was as splendid as possible.

This is very much part of the medieval aesthetic. No matter how broke the people were, they wanted a rich and beautiful church and gave enthusiastically even when they had nothing. They understood that while they were largely poor, that at least their pope would be splendid. They did the same thing with their monarchs. People took pride in seeing at least their rulers looking as grand as possible because, by extension, it made them look good even if they couldn't afford a change of clothing. A strong and rich monarch made them feel safe and prideful in their daily life and a similar pope made them feel safe about their afterlife. After all, they would figure, if the pope wasn't the right guy, why would God raise him up to such a high position? Literally, until the Enlightenment and the Reformation, this was common thought and made a great deal of sense to the average Catholic. To many, it still does. To glorify the home of God, the seat of God's representative, was an obligation. Gold and jewels and finest of art were rightful gifts to God to thank Him for the good things in life because when the shit hit the fan, he might just answer your prayers and perform a miracle when you needed one most. Failing that, your devotion in tithe and prayer and following God's laws would assure you a place in a heaven that was guaranteed to be far grander than even the most spectacular cathedral you might have visited once in your life.

Over time, the Vatican expanded as the temporal powers of the pope did. At one time, the Papal States were a large chunk of Italy and all throughout Europe, any church, monastery, abbey, chapel, or cathedral was directly under the sole power of the pope himself (only royal chapels were exempt). They were as embassies complete with their own set of laws and territories, inviolate by even the king. Soldiers nor officials on state business could enter church property without express permission of a bishop or higher. They were untaxed and free to amass wealth as they saw fit and distribute it (or not) the same way. Not all orders saw things the same way. The Franciscans, in particular, emulated the mendicancy of Jesus himself. The Carmelites and Cistercians followed along the same line while the Jesuits and many other orders had no qualms about using wealth to glorify God. In the medieval world, what was richer was more legitimate and deserving of wealth because obviously God favored someone or something that was able to amass that wealth. And if God favored that person or institution, then the average peasant had better do so too because that is what God would want. It doesn't make much sense to us now but then we're way post-Reformation and post-Modern and post-Enlightenment. We're way far away from that sort of mindset for the most part.

To burn the Vatican would be an immense human tragedy. It is crammed with the finest art works in the world, now able to be enjoyed by the general public without much difficulty. Anyone from Jew to Buddhist is free to visit the Vatican to enjoy the masterworks. Whether you believe they're worthy of God or not makes little difference. Among its collection are works that ennoble humanity as much as they sought to ennoble God. Artisans from Michelangelo to da Vinci, Bernini, and thousands of unnamed master workers have contributed not just to the individual works, but to the building itself. It is truly incomparable in the world and a testament to the best that humankind is capable of imagining and creating in a state of genius. To behold the Sistine Chapel does as much to cause marvel of the man who created it as it was intended to glorify God. You may not be moved to become a Christian just by experiencing the Vatican, but you will be astonished by the beauty of which we are capable of creating and expressing. Art of this caliber is invaluable not for its monetary cost, but for understanding and celebrating the human experience. It's a true proof of, "we are more than the sum of our parts."

Never, ever, discount the value of art because it teaches us so much about who we are. Great art unites us in awe and teaches us new ways of thinking; of understanding who we are and who we were. We learn new processes, and free ourselves from convention by doing so. We learn through the abstract, new and valuable things about the mundane. In that experience we are enlightened and educated because we are confronted by the imaginations of others in unique ways which, sometimes, change the course of history in their brilliance. The Vatican and its treasures is no less invaluable than the British Museum, the Louvre, the Prado, the Metropolitan, or any other great world repository of art.

The Vatican is what it is and, on the whole, the popes have been good curators save for occasionally nailing fig leaves on nudes or (shudder) having drapery painted over the genitals of Michelangelo's nudes (removed since the latest restoration --yaay!). You need not be Catholic to understand or appreciate the glories of the art, and maybe the curators are hypocritical by today's standards, but remember that very little changes quickly in the Catholic church and since its foundation, it has always been the policy for the Vatican to be as close to Augustine's City of God as possible. For us, that's a more abstract concept than the vast majority of history has understood it to be, right or wrong.

A word about the Egyptian obelisk. That was actually placed where it was by Emperor Caligula, someone definitely NOT a Christian. The site of St. Peter's is where the old Circus Maximus was located and the obelisk was a decoration in the Circus. It was not dragged there by any pope. Rather than move it, they just left it.
 
2

2322

Guest
And the organ! Don't forget that Protestants always spend big on the organ. If it doesn't shake the chandeliers, then it's not big enough.