why is the Vatican so ornamented

[vince]

We don't worship furnaces. :tongue:
As far as statue and icon worship being perceived as sinful that's because it goes against the first of the ten commandments. It's not something Protestants made up.

It only a Commandment NJ. It's not like it's the 2nd Amendment or anything. :tongue:

 

[Drifterwood]

Honestly, I don't see too many non-religious people helping the world's poor just for the sake of helping the poor

Are you serious?

Have you heard of the United Nations? UNESCO, UNHCR etc etc The Red Cross, Medecins sans Frontieres? The Masons, we had a whole thread about them? The Round Table, The Lions etc etc? Innumerable charities and legacies funded by non religious philanthropists?

For Jason - "Give me chastity. But not just yet." :wink:

 

[798686]

Very enlightening and..biblical post Jase!

I still think the Catholic Church has abused its powers, but I do understand the need for something which transcended the mundane and sometimes awful lives of people through the ages, and gave them some sort of hope in the future. [I think having things/standards of beauty and goodness to enjoy and maybe aspire to, is of great importantance for most humans.]

Not sure the whole opulent grandeur of it all is quite what Christ indended though, as he was all about humility and modesty, etc - he criticised the Pharisees for all their pomp and show. Also, the Bible (arguably) seems to indicate those resurrected would be ruling on earth with Christ at His return - not in heaven. But anyway...

Glad you mentioned the obelisk!

 

[mitchymo]

Very enlightening and..biblical post Jase!

I wonder what he might put if the vatican asked for a 'Book of Jason'?

I see an opportunity for some devilishness.

If i had the power i would add 'Thou shalt not spit....ever (anything)' to the commandmants :smile:

 

[798686]

LOL Mitchy.

Actually - I'm sure I've read a quotation from II Jason 3 v 12.

 

[BIGBULL29]

We don't worship furnaces. :tongue:
As far as statue and icon worship being perceived as sinful that's because it goes against the first of the ten commandments. It's not something Protestants made up.
Ten Commandments - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
​

I know I'm on a sexual forum, but I think it's sad when people cannot see beyond the politics and atrocities of the Catholic Church. The good that some of its saints have done for the greater good of humanity is proof of the beautiful and transformative power of religion. Sadly, even most Protestants are unaware of the lives of many of the Catholic saints and the incredible love and sacrifices they made for the betterment of society[/QUOTE] Do tell, As an art historian who has studied the Baroque and Rennaissance periods I like to think I have a better than average knowledge of the saints. Many like St. Catherine of Siena were holy anorexics. I'm not sure mental illness combined with an eating disorder qualify as incredible love and sacrifice made for the betterment of society. :tongue:

I admit that I don't have any friends IRL who are atheists; but I don't think their lack of faith in a higher power means that they are incapable of being charitable in word and deed. :no:

I think that that most Christians don't really know who Jesus was and maybe this is why they are mocked so much. Perhaps it is deserved.[/

QUOTE] How arrogant and ignorant of you to think that Catholics are the only Christians who help those less fortunate. :irked: The United Methodist Church has numerous charitable groups and missionaries thoughout the USA and the world. In addition, Lutherans, Baptists, and Presbyterians, all do great things through their mission work around the world.

The United Methodist faith is deeply rooted in the Scripture and in the basic beliefs of all Christians. Out of that theology and the faith have grown some specific actions that mark United Methodists as Christians engaged in ministry to the world. The early members of the groups that eventually became The United Methodist Church

• took strong stands on issues such as slavery, smuggling, and humane treatment of prisoners;
• established institutions for higher learning;
• started hospitals and shelters for children and the elderly;
• founded Goodwill Industries in 1902;
• became actively involved in efforts for world peace;
• adopted a Social Creed and Social Principles to guide them as they relate to God’s world and God’s people;
• participated with other religious groups in ecumenical efforts to be in mission.

Then why do Protestants fly the American flag almost as if they worship them. But a statue of Jesus, representating the God they supposedly love with all their hearts, is abhorred The argument is baseless, as it just stems from hate for the Catholic Church. Let's not have art because the Catholics have it. We don't want to resemble them in any way. It's that simple.

I'm not debating Protestant vs. Catholic beliefs, but I know that charity has not always been at the forefront of many Protestant denominations like in the Catholic church throughout history. The reason for that is that most Protestants believe you're saved through faith, not works. Good works mean pretty much nothing as it will only get you more rewards in heaven.

I am not saying that no Protestants have not done lots of good for humanity through charity work. We all know that isn't true. Sorry if you took offense. I mean that.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Are you serious?

Have you heard of the United Nations? UNESCO, UNHCR etc etc The Red Cross, Medecins sans Frontieres? The Masons, we had a whole thread about them? The Round Table, The Lions etc etc? Innumerable charities and legacies funded by non religious philanthropists?

For Jason - "Give me chastity. But not just yet." :wink:

You don't get my point. I am talking about individual people who go out in the world on their own initiative, not organizations like the Red Cross. How many atheists and non-religious help the poor like Mother Theresa, St. Francis, and many of the Buddhist holy people? I'm not aware of too many. Writing out a check for a 1 million dollars just doesn't count. What sacrifice is that for a billionnaire (tax write-off anyways).

Do we have to talk about the Masons? The good they do is just for the sake of doing good? Give me a break. There are many motiviations to doing good, as far as organizations are concerned.

 

[superbot]

You're an ignorant simply-minded ridiculous bigoted ol'queen.You clearly know nothing about the Catholic church and once again prove your level of intelligence with your trashy 'talking heads thought for the day' expostulations.The Catholic church has championed the poor and forgotten for a great many years and does so when no one else has bothered or thought 'fashionable'.Take time out to think about the men and women clerical and laiety who have given and lost their lives in service of the poor then weigh up what YOU have done!!

 

[mitchymo]

You're an ignorant simply-minded ridiculous bigoted ol'queen.You clearly know nothing about the Catholic church and once again prove your level of intelligence with your trashy 'talking heads thought for the day' expostulations.The Catholic church has championed the poor and forgotten for a great many years and does so when no one else has bothered or thought 'fashionable'.Take time out to think about the men and women clerical and laiety who have given and lost their lives in service of the poor then weigh up what YOU have done!!

a) Being ignorant is not a bad thing if ignorant means without knowledge of.
b) I am no bigot
c) I am not a 'queen' if you assume that of my gay character, i'm not that obvious
d) I know enough about some aspects of the catholic church and i question that which i don't.....as i did!
e) I am above average in intelligence so assume me simple all you want, i'm no intellectual like some members but i have no doubt of my level of intelligence
f) what the church does it does for itself, its own self satisfaction and uses the weak to bolster its numbers, its charity is down to its parishioners giving it the funds that it then does what exactly with i don't know but i've never seen the church doing anything charitable (what stops them from opening their doors to allow the homeless to shelter overnight?)
g) i donate to charity often, i cannot afford much as i earn just above minimum wage but i often add spare change to donation boxes, i have made regular direct debits to both 'wateraid' for those in need of clean water in the third world as well as 'save the children' and i donate all my old good condition clothes books and dvds to a pet charity even when i dont have pets.
h) GET OFF MY BACK, if you don't like my threads then butt out of them, yet again you have nothing constructive to say, you only comment to insult me personally........ you sad sad man.

 

[superbot]

I spent 10 months working in Uganda 8 years ago at a 'sponsored parish' where most people receiving aid were not NOT Christian let alone Catholic.That is common practice, so that gives LIE to your theory about 'bolstering numbers'! As far as the church's opening their doors to the homeless,what do you think they've doing non stop for the best part of 150 years?....Your comments about the Lockerbie bomber by the way were an ABOMINATION.Glad you were in a minority of one on that one ,HaHa.If you don't like my comments then don't put up such ill imformed,badly researced crap, or do you think that everyone HAS to agree with you? GROW UP!!!

 

[mitchymo]

I spent 10 months working in Uganda 8 years ago at a 'sponsored parish' where most people receiving aid were not NOT Christian let alone Catholic.That is common practice, so that gives LIE to your theory about 'bolstering numbers'! As far as the church's opening their doors to the homeless,what do you think they've doing non stop for the best part of 150 years?....Your comments about the Lockerbie bomber by the way were an ABOMINATION.Glad you were in a minority of one on that one ,HaHa.If you don't like my comments then don't put up such ill imformed,badly researced crap, or do you think that everyone HAS to agree with you? GROW UP!!!

Non christians are charitable? no get outta here, i thought only christians and catholics were able to play samaritan means nothing other than the church are helping only in as much as others are.
I see a homeless man sleeping in a bus shelter every morning on the way to work, why? because he has nowhere to go at night. why? the church closes and locks the doors to protect their golden candlesticks etc etc....have they never heard of a lock-in? They could give shelter to the homeless if they wanted to even if they could'nt provide food and drink.

My comments on the Lockerbie bomber were from a compassionate viewpoint NOT from a support of the individual. Laws in Scotland are different to many places and they are mostly CATHOLIC!!!!
You have a problem with compassion? You are closer to that man than i am!

I don't have to have everyone agree with me at all, that is no interest of mine, i like to share my thoughts and if people appreciate them great and if they don't then i am happy to hear why but what i do not like is people behaving like children unable to be constructive, unable to debate an issue without resorting to the fundamental example of lack of self belief and or spite than insulting the opposition with derogatory words and sticky first opinions which are worthy of a pre-teen having a tantrum so i suggest that you take your own 'grow up' advice.

 

[D_CountdeGrandePinja]

There are many branches of Catholicism - not just the Roman, most known part.
We are asked to be people of faith, not necessarily of a particular religion.
Jesus came to teach us faith - walk in the light and if a certain church feels right, go for and with it! If not, be the BEST PERSON you can be right NOW!

 

[Jason]

You're an ignorant simply-minded ridiculous bigoted ol'queen.You clearly know nothing about the Catholic church and once again prove your level of intelligence with your trashy 'talking heads thought for the day' expostulations.The Catholic church has championed the poor and forgotten for a great many years and does so when no one else has bothered or thought 'fashionable'.Take time out to think about the men and women clerical and laiety who have given and lost their lives in service of the poor then weigh up what YOU have done!!

Think twice before posting something like this - then don't post it.

It is name calling, and it just doesn't help.

On the substance of your post we should all weigh up what we have and haven't done, and I guess that most of us haven't done as much as we should. That goes for Catholics, protestants, atheists, everyone.

This thread is focused on the artistic and architectural grandeur of the Vatican. The essay by Jason_els may be counted as a substantial contribution to this area. There is a related area of how this pomp and grandeur can be equated with the gospel message. This is an area where the Roman Catholic church may well have a problem with how it is perceived, and may have a more fundamental set of problems around whether it is truly acting in the spirit of the gospel it professes. These are questions which can reasonably be debated - and in a calm manner.

 

[BIGBULL29]

.The Catholic church has championed the poor and forgotten for a great many years and does so when no one else has bothered or thought 'fashionable'.

There is indeed truth in that statement. Something that people just don't want to hear. It's much easier and natural to just see the horrible corruption down in its name.

Catholic saints have shown tremendous love throughout the ages. Just look at the Sisters of Charity in Calcutta, India. They help those dying of Aids when no one else will. What are they getting in return??? Not money or fame for doing so.

 

[superbot]

How can you say that Scotland's laws are Catholic?! What the hell planet are you on? I've heard of clutching at straws but you are something else.By the way,this individual you 'claim' sleeps in the bus shelter everynight,did it occur to you that a) He's there through choice (as nearly ALL homeless people CHOOSE a life on the streets),b) did you offer to help him,c)did you contact social services? No,no and no.P.s. Of course no church is going to take homeless people into their CHURCHES because the clergy are not qualified to looked after mentally ill/drug dependant individuals that is what Social Services are for,not to mention the legal implications.Do you not think anything through??????????

 

[superbot]

Think twice before posting something like this - then don't post it.

It is name calling, and it just doesn't help.

On the substance of your post we should all weigh up what we have and haven't done, and I guess that most of us haven't done as much as we should. That goes for Catholics, protestants, atheists, everyone.

This thread is focused on the artistic and architectural grandeur of the Vatican. The essay by Jason_els may be counted as a substantial contribution to this area. There is a related area of how this pomp and grandeur can be equated with the gospel message. This is an area where the Roman Catholic church may well have a problem with how it is perceived, and may have a more fundamental set of problems around whether it is truly acting in the spirit of the gospel it professes. These are questions which can reasonably be debated - and in a calm manner.

Don't patronize me thnk you very much I know what I'm talking about!!

 

[mitchymo]

How can you say that Scotland's laws are Catholic?! What the hell planet are you on? I've heard of clutching at straws but you are something else.By the way,this individual you 'claim' sleeps in the bus shelter everynight,did it occur to you that a) He's there through choice (as nearly ALL homeless people CHOOSE a life on the streets),b) did you offer to help him,c)did you contact social services? No,no and no.P.s. Of course no church is going to take homeless people into their CHURCHES because the clergy are not qualified to looked after mentally ill/drug dependant individuals that is what Social Services are for,not to mention the legal implications.Do you not think anything through??????????

I think plenty through but i never claim to know the truth, i put forward my opinions and if members like Jason_Els can create a noteworthy response to shed light on something i do not understand then i can appreciate the new wisdom i now possess from him. You however just mock anything i might say with what seems passionate contempt.

I never said that Scottish law was catholic did i, be honest i did not, i merely pointed out that it was a law within a traditionally catholic country so it suggests that catholics are indeed compassionate on some level that even i had not connected until comparing the threads since you brought up the Lockerbie thing. The catholics in Calcutta were mentioned and again i appreciate that because it helped expand my perception of the church (catholic at least) to beyond my own country and that is a noteworthy contribution to teaching the ignorant which on the matter of the original thread as well as Catholicism as a whole i confess to be.

You are not helpful, you are a critic, and a pariah considering the number of times you have just popped up on various threads to give me your routine put-downs. I do not appreciate it and i ask you to be civilised and if i'm really that ridiculous then don't waste your time OR mine.

 

[BIGBULL29]

Why do you we pay athletes millions and millions of dollars to run a ball around a field in tight pants? Society is just not very rational.

I think people need to separate the Church as a well-structured organization with all its complicated dogma, theology and politics from the root from which it all sprang. That can be hard to do.

 

[ryan25yo]

It really saddens me that there is still so much bigotry against the Catholic Church. As the historian Arthur Schlesinger has said.....anti-Catholicism is the one bigotry in America that's tolerated.

Why this is so just might be the subject of a thread.

 

[mitchymo]

It really saddens me that there is still so much bigotry against the Catholic Church. As the historian Arthur Schlesinger has said.....anti-Catholicism is the one bigotry in America that's tolerated.

Why this is so just might be the subject of a thread.

I don't know what stems the bigotry in the US but over this side it is a combo of it being a religion which is a viable target for those who believe organised religion is bad and with anti predjudice laws seeming to be followed only if it is against minority faith then it can be sort of gotten away with which true is unfair but the biggest single reason here is and it has become the butt of many jokes is a string of scandals involving the catholic church and its relationship with its priests who have been found messing about where they should'nt be putting their hands on choirboys etc etc. The catholic church was smeared by what appeared to be an obvious cover-up and blind eye to what had been going on, seriously it has popped up in the news headlines numerous times over the last decade involving different priests, different locations, different situations but all catholic and some of which claims that bishops were ignoring what they suspected and brushing things under the carpet so it does'nt have the best name here. It could also be the fact that the only time the catholic church is mentioned is in 'bad' news with the church of england being all the focus where religion is concerned which would give a very one-sided (and bad one in our case) of an entire faith and so yes that is not fair either.