why is the Vatican so ornamented

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Then why do Protestants fly the American flag almost as if they worship them. But a statue of Jesus, representating the God they supposedly love with all their hearts, is abhorred The argument is baseless, as it just stems from hate for the Catholic Church. Let's not have art because the Catholics have it. We don't want to resemble them in any way. It's that simple.

Actually..... it isn't. It's pretty damn complicated and caused the entire Iconoclast Schism in the eastern church. The issue revolves around the idea of an image being the object of worship or even veneration. The Catholic church is loaded with relics. Indeed, a holy relic must be present in a Catholic high altar in order for it to function as an altar. Monstrances are used to worship the Eucharist (because of the Catholic belief of transubstantiation). The Protestant churches even rejected the crucifix on the grounds that they believe not in the sacrifice of Christ so much as in the resurrection of Christ. To them, a simple cross symbolizes the risen Christ.

Once again, much of this is perspective of the time in which Reformation occurred. Luther and his followers truly worried that people were worshiping graven images rather than using them as reminders. They found the worship of the Eucharist to be abhorrent because they rejected the idea of transubstantiation. To this day, Protestant churches which hold communion services do so with no specific sanctity shown to the bread or wine. To them, communion is a reminder of the Last Supper, not a sacrament. Protestants tossed out all the saints, all the saints relics, all the trappings of glamor which, they believed, distracted worshipers from focusing on God.

The basis of this difference is in the Protestant idea that worshipers do not require an intercessor to communicate with God. Catholics do. The Catholic faith is founded in the idea that the faithful can only come to God via the church. The Protestants, not needing any intercession, jettisoned everything except the most basic trappings of faith. They didn't need to implore saints for help, they didn't need Mary, they didn't need any sacrament beyond baptism, and they didn't even need clergy!

So if they believe in a risen Christ, then a statue of Jesus would be superfluous and, in the minds of some, even blasphemous. Protestants do not mind the symbology of the Christian faith. Frequent decorations include fish, doves, open Bibles, simple crosses, candles, oil lamps, and Old Testament items like Jacob's Ladder, the Tree of Life, rainbows, and loaves of bread.

Protestants haven't entirely escaped the Augustinian ideal however. Their churches are largely modeled after the Gothic style and in the wealthier churches you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference from a Catholic church as the layouts are very similar. Some Protestants are still big on stained glass but the subject matter is more remotely allegorical. You'll see scenes from the Book of Ruth or The Tree of Life or the parables, not figures of Jesus. You might run into an apostle, but that's rare.

I'm not debating Protestant vs. Catholic beliefs, but I know that charity has not always been at the forefront of many Protestant denominations like in the Catholic church throughout history. The reason for that is that most Protestants believe you're saved through faith, not works. Good works mean pretty much nothing as it will only get you more rewards in heaven.
The corollary is that you will know who will be saved and who will not by God's earthly favors toward a person. You cannot be certain who will go to heaven, but you can have a pretty good idea. Good works are wasted on people who are clearly not among the elect.

This concept, which spurred a whole debate on predestination verus free will all over theological circles and largely caused the Calvinist breakaway, remains at the heart of the Calvinist TULIP (those things necessary for salvation) adopted by the Synod of Dordt in 1619:

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]This stands for "Unconditional Election." This is the concept of predestination: that God has divided humanity into two groups. One group is "the elected." It includes all those whom God has chosen to make knowledgeable about himself. The rest will remain ignorant of God, and the Gospel. They are damned and will spend eternity in Hell without any hope of mercy or cessation of the extreme tortures. God made this selection before the universe was created, and thus before any humans existed. The ground or grounds that God uses to select the lucky few is unknown. What is known is that it is not through any good works on the part of the individual. It is not that he extends knowledge to some in order to find out who will accept salvation and who will not. [/FONT]-Synod of Dordt

Therefore, it doesn't matter how many good works you do to try to bring someone to salvation. If they're not on the list, or worse, if you're not on the list, then you're fucked and there's nothing you can do about it. The key is that you don't know who will be saved and who will not. Like I said, you can get a good idea, but you'll never be 100% certain. How piously you live will tend to indicate whether you're among the elect, but even then you'll never be certain. This also means that if, somehow, you knew you were among the elect, a life of murderous debauchery and evil wouldn't make a difference either. You'll still go to heaven because you've been predestined to do so.
 

eurotop40

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My humble opinion:
I have seen a bit of everything all over the world. And finally I realize that - after all - I am glad and proud of being a catholic (even if not a very good one).
 

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Actually..... it isn't. It's pretty damn complicated and caused the entire Iconoclast Schism in the eastern church. The issue revolves around the idea of an image being the object of worship or even veneration. The Catholic church is loaded with relics. Indeed, a holy relic must be present in a Catholic high altar in order for it to function as an altar. Monstrances are used to worship the Eucharist (because of the Catholic belief of transubstantiation). The Protestant churches even rejected the crucifix on the grounds that they believe not in the sacrifice of Christ so much as in the resurrection of Christ. To them, a simple cross symbolizes the risen Christ.

Yeah, but Protestants did not want to resemble Catholics, particularly with the more extreme hardline Protestants sects like the Anabaptists, which cames years later after Luther. Statues and relics looked Catholic and they didn't want any part of of that. Yeah, they try to justify it with the Ten Commandment (graven images), but is that really the reason.

Martin Luther was more Catholic than people realize. He still prayed to the Virgin Mary after it was all said and done (where did I read that?). And so hardline conservative Protestants of today would find Luther way too Catholic for their liking.
 
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It really saddens me that there is still so much bigotry against the Catholic Church. As the historian Arthur Schlesinger has said.....anti-Catholicism is the one bigotry in America that's tolerated.

Why this is so just might be the subject of a thread.

I call bullshit. It's perfectly fine to be bigoted about many things, not just Catholicism.

There is also a long-held deep suspicion of anything that smacks of hierarchy in American history. The country was founded by the most un-Catholic religious groups imaginable. The British got hold of the country at a time when being Catholic in the UK was not such a hot idea. Now I know you can say that Spain had the west and Florida settled before the British showed-up, but they didn't win the prize in the end. A bunch of ultra liberal white Deists with Masonic ties did and the Catholic church is so anti-Masonic that Catholics aren't permitted to join the Masons. "Papism" was as antithetical to democratic ideals as one could possibly get. Remember that the Pope and the Catholic church not only required themselves to be part of salvation, but they also legitimized nearly all the monarchies that the new America was eager to leave behind. American leadership was sovereign to the people, not to God or a Pope who might excommunicate a leader and, therefore, be able to influence one unduly. This question appeared when John Kennedy ran for president. People were truly worried that the Pope might threaten Kennedy with excommunication if Kennedy didn't comply with Papal demands. Perhaps that sounds odd, but it's true.

I will say the Catholic church has done itself no favors with the whole sexual abuse cover-up and that reflects a large problem with how the American Catholic church is run. The American Church has been deeply lacking in relevance for many Catholics as their declining numbers indicate. While the church flourishes in other places, it has not modernized in its home of Europe or the US. The election of Benedict, with his Rottweiler reputation, ultraconservative, trenchant views, and Nazi Youth past, has not endeared the church to Americans by any degree. The attitude of the church seems to be, "we're right and we don't care if you believe or not. We're not changing to suit you." And they lose a lot of members that way without attracting any new ones.

The good works you speak of are lost if the message of the church leadership seems to be one of righteous indignation while daring to shuffle around priests who molest children, paying out damages, and adopting a tone resembling insincere regret.

It also does not help that Catholics have never been in the American upper classes. It's the WASPs, their churches and charities, which benefited from the wealthy. Being Catholic didn't help either because how could the rich trust that someone who might hold damaging secrets or commit "sins" wouldn't feel compelled to blab to a priest in the confessional? Again, that was an issue with Kennedy. What if the Russians planted a spy in the President's confessional?

Nor has Catholicism any love for America:

'The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience, are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a State. - Pope Pious IX in 1854 writing on the USA.

"The pacific tone of Rome in the United States does not imply a change of heart. She is tolerant where she is helpless. Religious liberty is merely endured until the opposite can be carried into effect without peril to the Catholic world." - Bishop O'Connor

That certainly didn't help Bishop Sheen:

Not 100 in the United States hate the Roman Catholic Church, but millions hate what they mistakenly think the Roman Catholic Church is. - Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

Perhaps Sheen is right, but the division between the American ideals of plurality, democracy, individual rights, responsibilities, and liberties is light years from the Catholic structure of hierarchy, autocracy, restrictions, intercession, and mutual responsibility. I'm not certain the two will ever reconcile to any great degree as I don't see either changing any time soon.
 
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Yeah, but Protestants did not want to resemble Catholics, particularly with the more extreme hardline Protestants sects like the Anabaptists, which cames years later after Luther. Statues and relics looked Catholic and they didn't want any part of of that. Yeah, they try to justify it with the Ten Commandment (graven images), but is that really the reason.

Martin Luther was more Catholic than people realize. He still prayed to the Virgin Mary after it was all said and done (where did I read that?). And so hardline conservative Protestants of today would find Luther way too Catholic for their liking.

I don't think, "looking Catholic," had much to do with it. Luther didn't consider himself a heretic. He wanted to reform the Catholic church from within. Calvin, on the other hand, surrendered that idea entirely. He would have none of it. There are large differences between the Protestant denominations that follow Luther and those that follow Calvin.
 

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It's disgusting how much money is in the church. The Vatican proves, hands down, that the ultimate goal of religion used to be for power and money rather than morals and values.
 

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I spent 10 months working in Uganda 8 years ago at a 'sponsored parish' where most people receiving aid were not NOT Christian let alone Catholic.That is common practice, so that gives LIE to your theory about 'bolstering numbers'! As far as the church's opening their doors to the homeless,what do you think they've doing non stop for the best part of 150 years?....Your comments about the Lockerbie bomber by the way were an ABOMINATION.Glad you were in a minority of one on that one ,HaHa.If you don't like my comments then don't put up such ill imformed,badly researced crap, or do you think that everyone HAS to agree with you? GROW UP!!!


The institutional catholic church has spread the lie of god-made-man for centuries, brain-washed the minds of children, created a psychotic system of guilt and shame that destroys lives, and has demanded obedience with the threat of eternal damnation. It's the ultimate totalitarian system foisted on the human race. The child abuse scandal by catholic priests is just its latest injury to humanity.

If anything resembles Hitlerian fascism, it's the catholic church, which over the centuries has murdered more people than Hitler and Stalin combined. Despite its posturing, the catholic church is perhaps the most intolerant and hateful institution on the face of this planet. Its priests have raped boys and girls since time immemorial and almost never been made to pay for their crimes, since ecclesiastical authorities have covered them up. I just wish it would stop foisting its medieval, fascist world view upon the rest of us.
 
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eurotop40

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nothin stopping them from selling its extras and living humbly to perhaps help fund projects in christian africa tho
Excuse me, nothing against you, but I think the UK is not the best example, being probably the last feudal country in Europe. What you criticize in the Catholic Church is 100% applicable to your monarchy (and I know that if any foreigner asks any British guy (even the most socialist) about their Queen, they will say "Oh, but she is so nice and she does her job so well. Blah blah blah." Why don't the Windsors solve the poverty problem in the UK by selling their castles? Same thing you would like the Catholic Church to do (mind you, I am an "exiled" monarchist in Switzerland).
 
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I think cutting herself off from Rome was one of the best things the UK ever did. Protestant, freer-thinking countries seem to have done much better for themselves than staunchly Catholic ones, in recent centuries. Contrast countries such as the UK, US and Germany; with Italy, Ireland, Spain and the Catholic South American countries, for instance (which remained repressed and relatively unprosperous for long periods).

Maybe that isn't all down to Catholicism, but it certainly seems to have something to do with it.

On a different note (my EU-Paranoia re-surfacing) it seems that uniting Europe always needs some sort of spiritual element, and the Catholic church has benefited from this many times down the years - I wonder if it will seek to exploit that again at some point?...Tony Blair as EU President would seem an ideal catalyst for such a development...
 
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Excuse me, nothing against you, but I think the UK is not the best example, being probably the last feudal country in Europe. What you criticize in the Catholic Church is 100% applicable to your monarchy (and I know that if any foreigner asks any British guy (even the most socialist) about their Queen, they will say "Oh, but she is so nice and she does her job so well. Blah blah blah." Why don't the Windsors solve the poverty problem in the UK by selling their castles? Same thing you would like the Catholic Church to do (mind you, I am an "exiled" monarchist in Switzerland).

The UK was the last bastion of feudalism in Europe until Blair dismantled the feudal land system of Scotland. It was one of the early acts of his government.

The Queen does not own any of the fabulous collection of art, jewelry, coaches, and palaces. These are owned by the Crown, which is a public institution. She does have private cars, houses, and jewelry, but short of Sandringham (her private home), it's all pretty modest stuff in comparison. She cannot sell any Crown possession as those things are held by her in trust for the country. Only Parliament can authorize the sale of Crown property.

Oddly enough, she can sell all the ships in the navy.
 

eurotop40

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freer-thinking countries seem to have done much better for themselves than staunchly Catholic ones
I don't think that for instance the Greek Orthodox countries did much better than the Catholic ones (and they were separated from Rome).
For sure there are stereotypes that have allowed to manipulate people differently. This is a joke but to some extent true:
Taoism
Shit happens
Confucianism
Confucius says shit happens
Buddhism
If shit happens, it really isn't shit
Zen
What is the sound of shit happening
Hinduism
This shit happened before and it will happen again and again
Islam
If shit happens, it is the will of Allah
Protestantism
Let shit happen to someone else
Catholicism
If shit happens, you deserve it
Judaism
Why does this shit always happen to us?
Agnosticism
Is this shit or isn't it, I can't tell for sure...
Atheism
I don't believe this shit
As you see, the two different attitudes of Catholicism and Protestantism (if you can generalize it this way) give an idea of why certain societies have developed differently.
However, what I don't think is correct is that for instance Spain and Portugal did not do well. They were very important colonial powers and nowadays for instance Spanish is more spoken than English in the world. Obviously, Britain had a scientific progress and an industrial revolution far earlier than other countries and this partially explains its colonial victory e.g. against France in North America. Furthermore, the UK was politically united far earlier than Italy and Germany.
What you are forgetting though is that Germany is actually the strongest European economy (and Geman is the most spoken language in Europe - well, except Russian, but that is somehow geographically "Eurasian"). And Germany is fifty-fifty Catholic and Lutheran. Actually, the part that had an economic miracle after WWII was the West-South West, that had a Catholic majority before 1991.
 
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eurotop40

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The UK was the last bastion of feudalism in Europe until Blair dismantled the feudal land system of Scotland. It was one of the early acts of his government.

The Queen does not own any of the fabulous collection of art, jewelry, coaches, and palaces. These are owned by the Crown, which is a public institution. She does have private cars, houses, and jewelry, but short of Sandringham (her private home), it's all pretty modest stuff in comparison. She cannot sell any Crown possession as those things are held by her in trust for the country. Only Parliament can authorize the sale of Crown property.

Oddly enough, she can sell all the ships in the navy.

Still, as far as I know, for instance the Duke of Westminster owns basically all the land on which the western part of London is situated. Thus, you cannot really purchase any apartment in that area because at some point it goes back to the Duke. In my opinion - but I have no numbers to demonstrate this - this is something that you do not find anywhere on the European continent.
 
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I don't think that for instance the Greek Orthodox countries did much better than the Catholic ones (and they were separated from Rome).
For sure there are stereotypes that have allowed to manipulate people differently. This is a joke but to some extent true:
TaoismShit happensConfucianismConfucius says shit happensBuddhismIf shit happens, it really isn't shitZenWhat is the sound of shit happeningHinduismThis shit happened before and it will happen again and againIslamIf shit happens, it is the will of AllahProtestantismLet shit happen to someone elseCatholicism If shit happens, you deserve itJudaismWhy does this shit always happen to us?AgnosticismIs this shit or isn't it, I can't tell for sure...AtheismI don't believe this shitAs you see, the two different attitudes of Catholicism and Protestantism (if you can generalize it this way) give an idea of why certain societies have developed differently.
However, what I don't think is correct is that for instance Spain and Portugal did not do well. They were very important colonial powers and nowadays for instance Spanish is more spoken than English in the world. Obviously, Britain had a scientific progress and an industrial revolution far earlier than other countries and this partially explains its colonial victory e.g. against France in North America. Furthermore, the UK was politically united far earlier than Italy and Germany.
What you are forgetting though is that Germany is actually the strongest European economy (and Geman is the most spoken language in Europe - well, except Russian, but that is somehow geographically "Eurasian"). And Germany is fifty-fifty Catholic and Lutheran. Actually, the part that had an economic miracle after WWII was the West-South West, that had a Catholic majority before 1991.

Interesting info, dude - thanks. :smile:
 
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I think cutting herself off from Rome was one of the best things the UK ever did. Protestant, freer-thinking countries seem to have done much better for themselves than staunchly Catholic ones, in recent centuries. Contrast countries such as the UK, US and Germany; with Italy, Ireland, Spain and the Catholic South American countries, for instance (which remained repressed and relatively unprosperous for long periods).

Maybe that isn't all down to Catholicism, but it certainly seems to have something to do with it.

On a different note (my EU-Paranoia re-surfacing) it seems that uniting Europe always needs some sort of spiritual element, and the Catholic church has benefited from this many times down the years - I wonder if it will seek to exploit that again at some point?...Tony Blair as EU President would seem an ideal catalyst for such a development...

Banking.

Charging interest was considered a form of usury and banned in Catholic countries where people seeking money had to go to the Jews who were not bound by anti-usury laws. Protestants decided that charging "reasonable," interest wasn't so bad and started public banking earlier and with greater safety (Jews sometimes got purged or simply didn't have enough money to lend for large enterprises).

There was also trade. The end of the great plagues saw a smaller population with relatively more money. Gruesome as it sounds, when you're the only survivor in your family, you inherited everything your loved ones left behind. For about the first time in history, average people had a little discretionary income and they invested it. Most of it went into business and that business was trade with the New World and Asia. Northern Europe was much less interested in establishing colonies as religious and political fiefdoms than in exploiting their wealth. Once England (and a nasty storm) sank the Spanish and then the Spanish sank themselves in the War of Succession, the gateway was open. Ship development rapidly improved in the northern maritime countries which also had open sea access. Something Mediterranean countries did not have since the British seized Gibraltar in 1704 (they also took Malta and the Balearics).
 

eurotop40

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Banking.

Charging interest was considered a form of usury and banned in Catholic countries where people seeking money had to go to the Jews who were not bound by anti-usury laws. Protestants decided that charging "reasonable," interest wasn't so bad and started public banking earlier and with greater safety (Jews sometimes got purged or simply didn't have enough money to lend for large enterprises).

There was also trade. The end of the great plagues saw a smaller population with relatively more money. Gruesome as it sounds, when you're the only survivor in your family, you inherited everything your loved ones left behind. For about the first time in history, average people had a little discretionary income and they invested it. Most of it went into business and that business was trade with the New World and Asia. Northern Europe was much less interested in establishing colonies as religious and political fiefdoms than in exploiting their wealth. Once England (and a nasty storm) sank the Spanish and then the Spanish sank themselves in the War of Succession, the gateway was open. Ship development rapidly improved in the northern maritime countries which also had open sea access. Something Mediterranean countries did not have since the British seized Gibraltar in 1704 (they also took Malta and the Balearics).

You are very right!
The "interest" issue is something I had forgotten, and also the plague etc...
Anyway, it is fascinating how nowadays the islamic countries have the same problem: for them you can for instance buy shares but bonds are prohibited.
 
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Still, as far as I know, for instance the Duke of Westminster owns basically all the land on which the western part of London is situated. Thus, you cannot really purchase any apartment in that area because at some point it goes back to the Duke. In my opinion - but I have no numbers to demonstrate this - this is something that you do not find anywhere on the European continent.

Oh yes, he does and then some!

But it's not anything unusual. These are lands he inherited like anyone else might inherit. Yes those lands go back to his title, but title no longer confers anything other than the right to a coat of arms, the right to be legally called by your title, and better-than-average representation in Parliament. What the Duke, as any other landlord, does is to sell leases. You can lease land or buildings from him. There are freehold parcels in London which you can own outright. They're not difficult to find.

He's really no different than any other large commercial land owner who leases out parcels. His lands are professionally managed and yes he pays taxes on it all. That he is a duke is just about the only thing unusual.

The UK does have two duchies, those of Lancaster and Cornwall. They are not confined to the counties of Lancaster or Cornwall. The duchies are separate operating bodies which are free to purchase or sell land for leasing as they see fit anywhere they see fit. The profits from the Duchy of Lancaster go to the Queen, the profits from the Duchy of Cornwall go to the Prince of Wales. Both are well-managed and bring in substantial revenue as well as being financially accountable and transparent.

You can learn more about the Duchy of Lancaster at its website.
Ditto for the Duchy of Cornwall.
 
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I think the treasury also receives a fair amount from the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster (via tax, lol).

Also, as far as the Monarchy goes - I think they generate an invaluable amount of tourism for Britain each year. :) They've also given us great continuity and a sense of grandeur we wouldn't otherwise have.
 
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Cheers for the background info on banking, Jase! You're a gentleman and a scholar. :p
 

eurotop40

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Hey, I am not attacking anyone.
I would just ask for a bit of fairness.
Christianity is by far not infallible and I am the first one that criticizes it.
But I would still not throw everything away (when I was younger I would have done that but now I realize aspects that still are important for a society).