why is there no proof that PE works?

Mule

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Surgical techniques resulted in average flaccid size increases of between 1.3cm and 2.5cm. One report mentioned a highly invasive surgical procedure that achieved up to 4cm, but the authors could find no reports to suggest this has been reproduced by others. Meanwhile, studies of three types of penile extenders resulted in average flaccid increases of 0.5cm to 2.3cm.

It seems that most (if not all) of the actual scientific studies that I have seen measure flaccid size gains and don't even mention erect size.

Call me overly practical, but what use is that, except for showing off in the locker room?
 

D_Iskepee_Longwoodee

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No. Most scientific studies measure erect size and flaccid is hardly ever uses as a basis to determine gains. They will, however, measure flaccid stretch and some studies will also measure flaccid length and girth but they are not what they base their findings on. Collagen remodeling works first in the flaccid state and later the guy will see results in the erect state. The first gains, however, are always inner penis being pulled out and the suspensory ligament and Fundiform ligament being stretched permanently.

It seems that most (if not all) of the actual scientific studies that I have seen measure flaccid size gains and don't even mention erect size.

Call me overly practical, but what use is that, except for showing off in the locker room?
 

D_Iskepee_Longwoodee

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Here is one scientific article that was rewritten so that it is more easily understood by a non-scientist as it is filled with scientific terms and descriptions. I feel that it is highly significant and is a must read for your repertoire of understanding the penis collagenous structure.
*
*
Abstract. “The tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa is a bi-layered structure with multiple layers. Inner layer bundles support and contain the cavernous tissue and are oriented circularly. Radiating from this layer are intracavernous pillars acting as struts, which augment the septum (make (something) greater by adding to it) increase ( and provide essential support to the erectile tissue. The septum is originates from the inner circular layer of collagen coming together to form a “wall” thus dividing the corpus cavernosum into two chambers. Outer layer bundles are oriented longitudinally or lengthwise orientation to the shaft. These fibers extend from the glans penis to the proximal crura, where they insert into the inferior pubic ramus. There are no outer layer fibers between the 5 and 7 o'clock positions. Elastic fibers normally form an irregularly latticed network on which collagen fibers rest. In Peyronie's disease the well ordered appearance of the collagen layers is lost: excessive deposits of collagen, disordered elastic fibers and fibrin are found within the region of the plaque.”
Collagen Fiber Alignment. The human tunica albuginea is a complex structure, and is designed to be functionally compatible for the purpose of sexual intimacy. The collagen bundles are oriented either circularly or longitudinally with multiple collagen bundle layers able to slide against each other .The inner layer of collagen is finer, and has circularly oriented bundles which surround and penetrate the cavernous tissue. The coarser outer layers are directed longitudinally extending from the base to the glans. The overall shape of the penis varies, with the location determined by the surrounding tunica albuginea.

Septum and Corpus Cavernosum. The septum dividing the two chambers of the corpus cavernosum (cc) is formed from the inner layer bundles. The median septum is complete proximally (the base area) and extends distally into each crus (areas of attachment) and are often incomplete at the glans. The inner layer bundles also send off perpendicular or intracavernous pillars that act as struts analogous to spokes on a bicycle Figure 2. The struts maintain intracavernous support.. The dorsal aspect (top) is fenestrated (having fenestrae or windowlike openings). “In summary, the inner layer has circular bundles that send off projections into the septum and thickened regions at the 6 o'clock position that represent the coalescence of bundles from both sides.”1

Figure 2 Intracavernous pillars between approximately 6 and 2 o'clock position. Note striation. Reduced from X25. Reprinted with permission. [5]
Ventral (bottom) thickenings. “The outer layer bundles oriented longitudinally (along the length of the shaft from base to glans)condense to form triangular ligamentous structures that we call ventral thickenings at the 5 and 7 o'clock position Figure 1. The intervening space (the ventral groove) houses the corpus spongiosum. Absence of longitudinal bundles between the ventral (bottom) thickenings allows the corpus spongiosum (cs) to expand without restriction.”

Longitudinal band thickenings toward the glans. Note that the longitudinal bundles are thicker on top (dorsally) these dorsal (top) thickenings bands are located at the 11 and 1 o'clock positions and ultimately extend into the glans distally as a single structure. These longitudinal bundles are located in the glans at the 12 o’clock position.

Dorsal thickenings at the base. When the dorsal thickenings are followed toward the base (proximally), they form the walls of the dorsal groove Figure 1, then gradually separate, anchoring the penile crura to the inferior pubic ramus. The longitudinal fibers from the lateral (side) aspect (1 to 4 and 8 to 11 o'clock positions) interdigitate with the suspensory ligament and fan out to join the adjacent ischiocavernous muscle (very important concept!).
Summary Thus Far. Hence, a circumferential ligamentous structure composed of ventral (bottom) and dorsal (top) thickenings and the lateral (sides) bundles is created, anchoring the penis to the ischial tuberosity (section of the hip bone behind the penis structure) immediately ventral to the pudendal nerve (one of the main nerve tracts coming from the sacral spine area) while providing the cavernous tissue with structural support.
Role of Elastic Fiber Mesh. The second structural component of the tunica albuginea is the elastic fibers that form an irregularly latticed framework on which collagen rests Figure 3A &B. In the penile shaft tunical elastic fibers and collagen are intertwined. However, proximally (the base) strands of skeletal muscle intermingle with outer layer bundles along the lateral aspect of the crus penis (interface of collagen fibers and IC muscle). The elastic network is present but with fewer fibers. The tunica at both ends (base and glans) where the inner layer bundles terminate, consists exclusively of collagen, reminiscent of ligamentous tissue.

Collagen Metabolism
In this article, I have printed the abstract and introduction with the article figures 1,2, and 3. I felt it unnecessary to rewrite it as it is relatively easy to read and can be accessed free. Unfortunately I was unable to produce a clearer illustration of Figure 2. You can access at no cost this paper in its entirety from Medscape: Medscape Access [3]
Abstract. The process of wound healing consists of an orderly sequence of events characterized by the specific infiltration of specialized cells into the wound site. The platelets and inflammatory cells are the first cells to arrive, and they provide key functions and signals needed for the influx of connective tissue cells and a new blood supply. These chemical signals are known as growth factors or cytokines. The fibroblast is the connective tissue cell responsible for collagen deposition needed to repair the tissue injury. Collagen is the most abundant protein in the animal kingdom, as it accounts for 30 percent of the total protein in the human body. In normal tissues, collagen provides strength, integrity, and structure. When tissues are disrupted following injury, collagen is needed to repair the defect and hopefully restore structure and thus function. If too much collagen is deposited in the wound site, normal anatomical structure is lost, function is compromised, and the problem of fibrosis results. Conversely, if insufficient amounts of collagen are deposited, the wound is weak and may dehisce. Therefore, to fully understand wound healing, it is essential to understand the basic biochemistry of collagen metabolism.

2
Introduction. Collagen is found in all of our connective tissues, such as dermis, bones, tendons, and ligaments, and also provides for the structural integrity of all of our internal organs.[1,2] Therefore, because of its wide distribution throughout our bodies, it represents one of the most abundant naturally occurring proteins on earth.[3] In addition to its natural abundance, there are well over 1,000 commercial products on the market today that contain collagen and collagen enhancers. These products are represented by body and hand lotions, nail treatments, firming gels, wrinkle injections, eye pads, and even anti-cancer treatments to name but a few. In recent years, new high-tech wound dressing materials and skin substitutes have become available for the treatment of partial-thickness injuries as well as full-thickness and chronic dermal ulcers.[2]

There are close to 20 different types of collagen found in our bodies.[4,5] Each one of these collagens is encoded by a specific gene. The five major types are summarized in Table 1 . The predominant form is Type I collagen. This fibrillar form of collagen represents over 90 percent of our total collagen and is composed of three very long protein chains. Each protein chain is referred to as an "Alpha" chain. Two of the Alpha chains are identical and are called Alpha-1 chains, whereas the third chain is slightly different and is called Alpha-2. The three chains are wrapped around each other to form a triple helical structure called a collagen monomer (Figure 1). This configuration imparts tremendous strength to the protein. To understand the overall structure of the collagen molecule, think of it as the reinforcement rods called re- bar that are used in concrete construction. Indeed if one converts the molecular dimensions of the collagen molecule to measurements that we can relate to, the molecule when scaled up would measure one inch in diameter to approximately 17 feet long. Therefore, collagen is indeed nature's re-bar, because it is responsible for the strength and integrity of all of our connective tissues and organ structures. [2]

Figure 1.
The basic structural unit of collagen is a triple-stranded helical molecule. From Molecular Cell Biology by Lodish H, Berk A, Zipursky SL, Matsudaira P, Baltimore D, Darnell J. © 1986, 1990, 1995, 2000 by W. H. Freeman and Company. Used with permission.

Figure 1.
The basic structural unit of collagen is a triple-stranded helical molecule. From Molecular Cell Biology by Lodish H, Berk A, Zipursky SL, Matsudaira P, Baltimore D, Darnell J. © 1986, 1990, 1995, 2000 by W. H. Freeman and Company. Used with permission.

Basically all of the collagens share this triple-helical molecular structure as described above. However, the various other types of collagens have slightly different amino acid compositions and provide other specific functions in our bodies. Type II collagen is the form that is found exclusively in cartilaginous tissues. It is usually associated with proteoglycans or "ground substance" and therefore functions as a shock absorber in our joints and vertebrae. Type III collagen is also found in our skin as well as in blood vessels and internal organs. In the adult, the skin contains about 80-percent Type I and 20-percent Type III collagen. In newborns, the Type III content is greater than that found in the adult. It is thought that the supple nature of the newborn skin as well as the flexibility of blood vessels is due in part to the presence of Type III collagen. During the initial period of wound healing, there is an increased expression of Type III collagen. [2]

Type IV collagen is found in basement membranes and basal lamina structures and functions as a filtration system. Because of the complex interactions between the Type IV collagen and the noncollagenous components of the basement membrane, a meshwork is formed that filters cells as well as molecules and light. For example, in the lens capsule of the eye, the basement membrane plays a role in light filtration. In the kidney, the glomerulus basement membrane is responsible for filtration of the blood to remove waste products. The basement membrane in the walls of blood vessels controls the movement of oxygen and nutrients out of the circulation and into the tissues. Likewise, the basal lamina in the skin delineates the dermis from the epidermis and controls the movement of materials in and out of the dermis. [2]

Type V collagen is found in essentially all tissues and is associated with Types I and III. In addition it is often found around the perimeter of many cells and functions as a cytoskeleton. It is of interest to note that there appears to be a particular abundance of Type V collagen in the intestine compared to other tissues. [2]


Figure 3.
The intramolecular and intermolecular cross-links formed within a collagen fibril. Copyright 1994 from Molecular Biology of the Cell, Third Edition , by Alberts, Bray, Lewis, Raff, Roberts, Watson (eds). Reproduced by permission of Routledge, Inc., part of The Taylor & Francis Group.
[ CLOSE WINDOW ]
Figure 2.

The intracellular and extracellular events involved in the formation of a collagen fibril. Copyright 1994 from Molecular Biology of the Cell, Third Edition , by Alberts, Bray, Lewis, Raff, Roberts, Watson (eds). Reproduced by permission of Routledge, Inc., part of The Taylor & Francis Group.
Conclusion. Collagen metabolism is one of the most complex and highly regulated processes in our bodies. As we move forward in the future to design new strategies and technologies to treat the many challenging clinical problems associated with wound healing, we need to keep in mind how our connective tissues are assembled and how they are remodeled.[2]

*
 

D_Iskepee_Longwoodee

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Cont....


Mechanical Stretching Effect on Collagen Hypertrophy
*
* The article indicates that collagen obtained from spinal tissue and subjected to mechanical stretching in vitro (in the test tube) resulted in increased transforming growth factor and hypertrophy of the collagen. This study is sufficiently analogous to penis traction such that it can provide light upon the sequence triggered by traction. In this case the collagen tissue was found in ligamenturn flavum cells obtained from the human lumbar spine from patients undergoing spine surgery. The tissue containing the collagen may be abbreviated LFC, a traction device was applied for 48 hours physically deforming the tissue cells. Production of transforming gowth factor increased significantly which in turn also increased collagen synthesis within the LFC tissue. The study than is sufficiently analogous to PE traction to suggest that traction will intuce molecular disruption, or bond braking setting up a growth phase event modulated by growth factors. This type of scientific literature begins to give us a picture of events that occur in a desired scientific format elucidation of stimulus response effect on collagen dynamics. (This I felt was a “smoking gun” journal article).
Abstrct: “We investigated the effect of mechanical stretching force on collagen synthesis and transforming growth factor-/3 1 (TGF-PI) production using ligament cells isolated from human ligamentum flavum in vitro. Ligamenturn flavum cells (LFCs) were isolated from human ligamenturn flavum obtained from patients who underwent lumbar spine surgery. The LFCs were subjected to a mechanical stretching force using a commercially available stretching device that physically deformed the cells. Collagen synthesis and TGF-PI production levels in the LFCs were then examined. Notable increases were observed in the gene expressions of collagen types I, 111, and V in LFCs subjected to mechanical stretching force. Production of TGF-PI by the LFCs also increased significantly by the mechanical stretching force. Exogenous application of TGF-PI was confirmed to increase collagen synthesis of the LFCs. This data indicated that mechanical stretching force can promote TGF-Dl production by LFCs, resulting in hypertrophy of the ligament.”[ 4]



The JES Extender Study
The JES Extender Study. This is one of the studies I am aware of that proves penis traction works, therefore I have included it in my discussion. In this study Jorn Ege Siana, MD based his idea, which was very original at that time (1998), that human tissue would respond favorable to traction and result in enlargement. This was his hypothesis. An extraordinary innovative device was invented to test this hypothesis. The inventor was Jes Bec Muller and it was called the JES extender. To prove their hypothesis, the device was developed to impose a maximum traction force of 1500 g or about 3.3 lbs. It consisted of two dynamic metal bars hinged to the ring, connecting it to the silicon-support, fastened around the corona glans at the distal end of the penis. 18 patients ranging from 23-47 years were selected. The treatment period was a marathon 12 hours daily 7 days a week 8 to 24 weeks with a follow up: every 2.weeks. After 24 weeks the participants were gratified with an average 24% increase in penis length. This is the one of the most credible studies, confirming the validity of their hypothesis. I have personally used the JES extender in 1999/2000 and gained 1⁄2” in 5 months and thus have experienced is validity.


Observations and Conclusions.

We can see from the above information that a clearer picture of the spectrum of collagen architecture and dynamics. We can draw conclusions based on the above. The collagen/elastin architecture of the penis is the limiting factor. Circumferential traction whether it is imposed on the penis circumference through vacuum, jelqing, squeezes, or other expansion moves or on the length through manual or mechanical stretching induces a stimulus response resulting in collagen hypertrophy (enlargement). The traction event causes molecular changes in the structure such as breaking of covalent bonds which in turn creates a chemotactic event activating and mobilizing the platelets and inflammatory cells which are the first cells to arrive., They provide key functions and signals needed for the influx of connective tissue cells and a new blood supply. These chemical signals are known as growth factors or cytokines. The fibroblast is the connective tissue cell responsible for collagen deposition needed to repair the tissue injury.

This process works in PE through the use of traction at a force sufficient to induce the above scenario required to break bonds, etc. A force as small as several pounds as demonstrated by the JES Extender will work finitely to increase length, however I suspect that the potential gains from the JES may be limited to the maximum force available. As in bodybuilding the force is probably proportional to the effect. One applies x amount of force, gains result, than accommodation occurs resulting in no further gains in collagen/elastin. It then becomes necessary to increase the force to exceed the accommodation threshold and generate next stage gains. Then accommodation sets in again and progression requires more force to exceed the threshold response and so on. Time is also a foctor but for the purposes of this discussion, I will keep this a constant though it will need to increase to some degree as well. Thus intensity and time are the parameters that are modulated for prudent progressive gains. Another point, as the penis is naturally a contractile organ, sufficient daily “maintenance” stretching logically must occur to prevent the collagen from healing in the contracted state. For example you perform an “intense” routine causing collagen hypertrophy scenario, maintenance stretching is subsequently indicated to insure that appropriate enlargement healing occurs in the extended state. A review of daily maintenance and threshold exceeding intervention combination and scenarios can be reviewed in a subsequent article.
I have attempted to provide REAL comprehensive insight from the above into collagen dynamics to help the individual gain useful knowledge in their PE progression. Part II will look at another
component of the penis in like manner giving insights as to the concepts and expectations of penile exercising.


References
1. Frank H. Netter, M.D., The Netter Collection of Medical Illustrations, Reproductive System, 1997; Volume 2, Page 9.
5. 5. 5 Hsu G-L , Brock GB , Martinez-Pineiro L , Nunes L , von Heyden B , Lue TF . The three- dimensional structure of the tunica albuginea: anatomical and ultrastructural levels. . Int. J. Impotence Res. . 1992;4:117 .
Gerald Brock, Geng-Long Hsu, Lora Nunes, Burkhard von Heyden, Tom F. Lue -"The Anatomy
of the Tunica Albuginea in the Normal Penis and Peyronie's Disease" - J Urol. 1997; Volume
157, Issue 1, 276-281
3. Robert F. Diegelmann, PhD, Collagen Metabolism, Medical College of Virginia, Virginia
Commonwealth University, Richmond, VirginiaPosted: 02/04/2002;
Wounds. 2001;13(5) © 2001 Health Management Publications, Inc.
4. Tetsuya Nakatani Takashi Marui Toshiaki Hitora Minoru Doita Kotaro Nishida Masahiro
Kurosaka. Mechanical stretching force promotes collagen synthesis by cultured cells from
human ligamentum flavum via transforming growth factor-*‐β1. J Orthopaedic Res. November

I
7. Baek SR et al, J Elast 80:13–31, 2005. 8. Driessen NJB et al, Biomechan Model Mechanobiol.7:93–103, .....2008. 9. Humphrey JD et al, Math Models Methods Appl Sci 12:407–430, .....2002

Here is one scientific article that was rewritten so that it is more easily understood by a non-scientist as it is filled with scientific terms and descriptions. I feel that it is highly significant and is a must read for your repertoire of understanding the penis collagenous structure.
*
*
Abstract. “The tunica albuginea of the corpora cavernosa is a bi-layered structure with multiple layers. Inner layer bundles support and contain the cavernous tissue and are oriented circularly. Radiating from this layer are intracavernous pillars acting as struts, which augment the septum (make (something) greater by adding to it) increase ( and provide essential support to the erectile tissue. The septum is originates from the inner circular layer of collagen coming together to form a “wall” thus dividing the corpus cavernosum into two chambers. Outer layer bundles are oriented longitudinally or lengthwise orientation to the shaft. These fibers extend from the glans penis to the proximal crura, where they insert into the inferior pubic ramus. There are no outer layer fibers between the 5 and 7 o'clock positions. Elastic fibers normally form an irregularly latticed network on which collagen fibers rest. In Peyronie's disease the well ordered appearance of the collagen layers is lost: excessive deposits of collagen, disordered elastic fibers and fibrin are found within the region of the plaque.”
Collagen Fiber Alignment. The human tunica albuginea is a complex structure, and is designed to be functionally compatible for the purpose of sexual intimacy. The collagen bundles are oriented either circularly or longitudinally with multiple collagen bundle layers able to slide against each other .The inner layer of collagen is finer, and has circularly oriented bundles which surround and penetrate the cavernous tissue. The coarser outer layers are directed longitudinally extending from the base to the glans. The overall shape of the penis varies, with the location determined by the surrounding tunica albuginea.

Septum and Corpus Cavernosum. The septum dividing the two chambers of the corpus cavernosum (cc) is formed from the inner layer bundles. The median septum is complete proximally (the base area) and extends distally into each crus (areas of attachment) and are often incomplete at the glans. The inner layer bundles also send off perpendicular or intracavernous pillars that act as struts analogous to spokes on a bicycle Figure 2. The struts maintain intracavernous support.. The dorsal aspect (top) is fenestrated (having fenestrae or windowlike openings). “In summary, the inner layer has circular bundles that send off projections into the septum and thickened regions at the 6 o'clock position that represent the coalescence of bundles from both sides.”1

Figure 2 Intracavernous pillars between approximately 6 and 2 o'clock position. Note striation. Reduced from X25. Reprinted with permission. [5]
Ventral (bottom) thickenings. “The outer layer bundles oriented longitudinally (along the length of the shaft from base to glans)condense to form triangular ligamentous structures that we call ventral thickenings at the 5 and 7 o'clock position Figure 1. The intervening space (the ventral groove) houses the corpus spongiosum. Absence of longitudinal bundles between the ventral (bottom) thickenings allows the corpus spongiosum (cs) to expand without restriction.”

Longitudinal band thickenings toward the glans. Note that the longitudinal bundles are thicker on top (dorsally) these dorsal (top) thickenings bands are located at the 11 and 1 o'clock positions and ultimately extend into the glans distally as a single structure. These longitudinal bundles are located in the glans at the 12 o’clock position.

Dorsal thickenings at the base. When the dorsal thickenings are followed toward the base (proximally), they form the walls of the dorsal groove Figure 1, then gradually separate, anchoring the penile crura to the inferior pubic ramus. The longitudinal fibers from the lateral (side) aspect (1 to 4 and 8 to 11 o'clock positions) interdigitate with the suspensory ligament and fan out to join the adjacent ischiocavernous muscle (very important concept!).
Summary Thus Far. Hence, a circumferential ligamentous structure composed of ventral (bottom) and dorsal (top) thickenings and the lateral (sides) bundles is created, anchoring the penis to the ischial tuberosity (section of the hip bone behind the penis structure) immediately ventral to the pudendal nerve (one of the main nerve tracts coming from the sacral spine area) while providing the cavernous tissue with structural support.
Role of Elastic Fiber Mesh. The second structural component of the tunica albuginea is the elastic fibers that form an irregularly latticed framework on which collagen rests Figure 3A &B. In the penile shaft tunical elastic fibers and collagen are intertwined. However, proximally (the base) strands of skeletal muscle intermingle with outer layer bundles along the lateral aspect of the crus penis (interface of collagen fibers and IC muscle). The elastic network is present but with fewer fibers. The tunica at both ends (base and glans) where the inner layer bundles terminate, consists exclusively of collagen, reminiscent of ligamentous tissue.
 

D_Iskepee_Longwoodee

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It's long but it should help to explain the process. I am fascinated by my own natural penis and wanted to see if I could accomplish more. I wanted to push my limits and so I have embarked into PE. I'm a research fanatic and one who using logical reasoning and concepts to come up with ways to solve my own personal goals. This is just one of many of my goals as a 21 year old. My natural stats are in my sig but I want to reach the 10" mark and hopefully not exceed much more in the where girth is concerned. A lack of credible evidence is to be found among the members on these boards but a wealth of highly regarded scientific and proven knowledge may be found in various journals in medicine. While PE has been around for a long time, the medical community has recently started to accept it in certain parts of Europe and some in the U.S.. Surgery or more drugs was always the answer and not traction or homeopathy, until recently. You will find that within a few years many guys my age will be practicing this and whether endowed like myself or average or less, you will start to see a trend towards larger male genitals.

For years pumping was touted and an pervasive attitude towards it was established. Why? Because most members on these boards are passing disinformation or information they believe to be accurate when the fact is that they have not tried it themselves. Pumping when utilized with a traction device and or manual PE will induce collagen remodeling and will give permanent and sizable gains. This is not a quick fix and PE generally takes months to accomplish any real noticeable difference except for in a flaccid state which is the first real size of gains to come. Because of this PE is quickly touted because the guy gave up because of lack of persistence, knowledge and time.

If you create or have a routine created for you by a vet or professional in the field, you will find that within a month your EQ will increase and by month two your flaccid will increase in both length and girth. Within the next 3 to 4 months you will start to see erect gains, but only if you have dedicated the necessary time to your PE daily.

Pumping in PE is only meant to cause the skin and underlying penile tissue, and systems to become more pliable and prepare them for the traction. This over time when applied will induce the collagen remodeling process the article above that I posted was written about. Other pumpers only want a temporary pump or a way to help with their ED and that is fine too, but it is not why a PE'er generally uses that protocol.
 
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Al7inchs_n_thick86

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I must concur with the likes of Jay, Snakebyte, Penispenis37, and Chance1826, Bigboy1986 and Xavilqar(thanks for the link to some picture evidence).

Jelqing has worked for many others; and has worked for myself as well in erect, as well as flacid, gains.

Started 6"L x 5"G
Now 7"Lx5.5"G (and have mostly corrected my leftward curve).

Working on an upcurve... this happened with about 2 months "work" using the free "JP's 90 Day routine" thread and help-chat on another forum (after doing the Newbie conditioning routine for a month).

Honestly those who don't know and speak; shouldn't: there are those who could really benefit from free penis enhancement and will be put off by loud-mouths attached to heads empty of experience with the issues at hand.

Blessings.
 
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FuzzyKen

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The big problem I see is in documentation. Nobody documents things and this is because they do not know how and they are not experienced in medical level documentation.

It is easy for those who do not believe it to be possible because that is the message that organized medicine wants out there. If they don't do it and they don't make a profit from it, doggone it it is not going to work no matter what evidence is presented.

You would think by this last paragraph that I am a big believer in it.

The problem with PE in general is that like everything else in medicine the thing that works well for one guy will not work at all for another.

There are people out there who have ligament structures that are as strong as steel cables and those individuals will not stretch no matter what they do. They are a minority, but that group does exist.

The first problem we have is lumping all men together into one group as if they were the same. They are not.

In order to document one needs photography taken under exactly the same conditions every time. This means focal distance from the camera, lighting, position of the body, focus settings, and this takes incredible precision and documentation to make it work.

These days most digital cameras will take movies. If lighting and focal length could be set exactly the same with each documenting movie the odds of those being "faked" are greatly reduced because of the cost of the software involved.

The other thing consistent with PE is the way most people decide to do it. The attitude is more like: "What have I got to lose by trying?" They buy their chosen method or "modality" and start in without bothering to do initial documentation before anything is done. This is totally innocent and is because they are anxious to get started.

There are methods that do work and I have seen some enlargement that is pretty good. The problem is that it is not drastic enlargement. A picture of a six inch erection and a seven inch erection are not all that different in appearance if the enlargement was proportional.

Some of the guys doing Chem PE are having some success. They are risking things kind of heavily to to it, but they are making some progress.

Stretching techniques do work for a percentage of individuals, and pumping works as well for a percentage of individuals. Pumping however is not great from what I have seen at creating length gains, but it will create girth gains.

There are those who do combination things combining chem PE with the other techniques. Again to me the documentation is not good and I completely agree with that statement. What I also know is that not being able to easily see something does not mean changes are absent.

I have seen some enlarement achieved by non surgical methods. What I also know is that it takes years of diligent work with your most successful methods to get measurable results. It takes years longer than that to get obvious results that are stand out territory.
 

Al7inchs_n_thick86

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Regarding the title of this thread; I say there is (much) more evidence to show (manual) P.E. does work than there is showing that it doesn't.

Also "the proof is in the pudding..." and not everyone is willing to share their pudding :)

I agree with most your whole post FuzzyKen; save this:
What I also know is that it takes years of diligent work with your most successful methods to get measurable results. It takes years longer than that to get obvious results that are stand out territory.
As I have shown myself differently (explained prior).
and this:
There are people out there who have ligament structures that are as strong as steel cables and those individuals will not stretch no matter what they do. They are a minority, but that group does exist.
; I am somewhat skeptical of. The sturdiest ligament structures should be subject to the forces brought on by the hanging and swinging of heavier and heavier weights; even if they do not benefit greatly (lengthwise) from conventional P.E..... but you could be right.

I am just so awed by the capabilities of the body.

Blessings.
 
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Robert Frost

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It works. 5.5' x 4.8" to 8.3" x 6.2", 8 years, no devices or pills. Manual stretching and jelqing type exercises.

There are people that take "reasonable" risks. There are those that want the guaranty no risk. Some people are saving others and others just do not want someone else to have the reward. Perhaps this is another area for government regulation, CPSEA, Comprehensive Penis Size Equality Act. There could be a tax on those with a larger penis with a sliding taxation scale to help keep everything fair and equal. Just look what this could do for government jobs. About half the population has a penis that would have to inspected with annual reporting to see if anyone has been doing PE and would incurr a tax increase. It is even better than Global Warming.
 

B_Bjen2848

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on various websites I have read about people claiming that PE works. on the PE websites there are hundreds of people who claim that it works but NONE have evidence of it. Also, many of these people who make these claims are moderators.

if there is any photo evidence that PE works then post it. I find it funny that people believe it is possible without any proof.

" why is there no proof that PE works?"

because it doesn't work lol
 

D_Iskepee_Longwoodee

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Comments like some of the above members who specifically state that it doesn't work have either not tried it themselves or have and would rather not have anyone else make gains. PE much like extending a limb, a finger, an earlobe or the scrotum works and there is a ton of picture proven proof and verifiable scientific research back by top departments in various medical associations globally.

A clinical trial was just conducted in two groups. One was for 4 hours a day using an extender for 6 months and the other was for 6 hours a day using an extender for 4 months. The results were an average growth of permanent penile growth in length of 2.3 cm for the last group and 1.7 cm for the first group.

My friend just started into PE over 7 months ago and has made massive strides in gaining length and some in girth. I found it fascinating and embarked into researching it first and then two months ago I tried it myself and am now part of clinical trials for a well known doctor who is an expert in PE. I was already decently endowed at 8.5 to 8.7" x 5.5 - 5.7" with base girth of 6.5, but within the last two months I have been able to reach 9.5" x 6.3" using a variety of PE tools and manual techniques. At this time most of the inner penis that will show is showing and cellular division via collagen remodeling is taking place. It takes 7 Ibs of force to put the body into a collagen remodeling phase. With proper PE equipment this can be done.

There are many documented journals with pictures at MOS, PE gym and Thundersplace to prove that PE does in fact work and has worked for many guys both naturally large and small.
 

edeneyes

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Comments like some of the above members who specifically state that it doesn't work have either not tried it themselves or have and would rather not have anyone else make gains. PE much like extending a limb, a finger, an earlobe or the scrotum works and there is a ton of picture proven proof and verifiable scientific research back by top departments in various medical associations globally.

A clinical trial was just conducted in two groups. One was for 4 hours a day using an extender for 6 months and the other was for 6 hours a day using an extender for 4 months. The results were an average growth of permanent penile growth in length of 2.3 cm for the last group and 1.7 cm for the first group.

My friend just started into PE over 7 months ago and has made massive strides in gaining length and some in girth. I found it fascinating and embarked into researching it first and then two months ago I tried it myself and am now part of clinical trials for a well known doctor who is an expert in PE. I was already decently endowed at 8.5 to 8.7" x 5.5 - 5.7" with base girth of 6.5, but within the last two months I have been able to reach 9.5" x 6.3" using a variety of PE tools and manual techniques. At this time most of the inner penis that will show is showing and cellular division via collagen remodeling is taking place. It takes 7 Ibs of force to put the body into a collagen remodeling phase. With proper PE equipment this can be done.

There are many documented journals with pictures at MOS, PE gym and Thundersplace to prove that PE does in fact work and has worked for many guys both naturally large and small.

You wouldn't happen to have documented evidence would you? =]
 
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on various websites I have read about people claiming that PE works. on the PE websites there are hundreds of people who claim that it works but NONE have evidence of it. Also, many of these people who make these claims are moderators.

if there is any photo evidence that PE works then post it. I find it funny that people believe it is possible without any proof.


Off-course there is proof. There's money to be made, so it must work.