Why so many gays ?

[ponybilt]

Originally posted by VladtheImpaler@Jul 31 2004, 02:32 PM
If you say "God hates Jews/gays/Catholics/Muslims/Christians/etc.", you are saying that the group you are damning has no right to even exist. It is a short trip to mass murder from there. History has all too many examples of this.

Very true.

QUOTE:
Shortly after World War II, Martin Niemoller, a German Lutheran pastor active in the Underground, wrote of what happens when the spirit that binds us together as human beings is ignored.

"They came for the Jews but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Jew. They came for the Gypsies but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a Gypsy. They came for the homosexuals but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t a homosexual. They came for the mentally retarded but I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t mentally retarded. Finally they came for me and no one said anything because no one was left to speak."

Our greatest enemy is tribalism, that destructive force that says, "My way is the only way." It comes in all kinds of shapes and sizes...religious, cultural, political. Tribalism’s intent is always to destroy diversity.

Our best defense is what we have in common -- Our humanity.
END QUOTE

 

[jonb]

Actually, Niemoller's original list was as follows: Communists, socialists, trade unionists and Jews -- in that order. It's been modified for various political purposes; most Americans will not mention the political ideologies. Americans typically add Catholics (Does that include Hitler himself?), gypsies, the mentally ill, homosexuals, or whoever else.

 

[jonb]

Originally posted by ozdick@Jul 30 2004, 04:50 AM
One of the most memorable quotes I read was from a gay soldier.
It was something like

"I killed a man -
I got a medal.
I loved a man -
I got a dishonourable discharge"

Well, a lot of Lakota were shocked by how the U.S. military gave medals to those who killed civilians or raped the women; it's because our traditional method of warfare was more like a team sport: The idea was to get to the point that you could've killed an enemy, alert him that you could've killed him, but not actually do it.

 

[ponybilt]

Originally posted by jonb@Aug 1 2004, 01:08 AM
Actually, Niemoller's original list was as follows: Communists, socialists, trade unionists and Jews -- in that order. It's been modified for various political purposes; most Americans will not mention the political ideologies. Americans typically add Catholics (Does that include Hitler himself?), gypsies, the mentally ill, homosexuals, or whoever else.

So? Does it change the meaning of the message?

If I&#39;d known the exact list he used I would&#39;ve included it. I had no alterior motive as you might suggest. Change it to redheads, blonds and brunettes -- it doesn&#39;t matter.... except dumbasses, becasue I wish someone would come and take them away <sarcasm>

 

[jonb]

No, I was mostly correcting it for historical accuracy.

 

[13788]

suaige:

Originally posted by qwertyu@Jul 29 2004, 05:28 PM

if there is testosterone released and that tender age of 3 months (in the womb) u grow the penis and testes, it also wires the brain for sexual attraction, which would mean girls right? wellll if too much testosterone is released the organs grow even bigger than there supposed to, the overload also cause a change in the "brain&#39;s wiring" and u become attracted more to guys

just what I&#39;ve read/heard

changing from male to female, or inbetween or what else---My roommate a Dr. and I had a very interesting conversation on this, well sort of -- the biological cause of hermaphrodites.

There are 2 types of testosterone regular and dihydrotestosterone. This though is not what actually distinguishes the sexes. But, merely the external expression of them. the lower internal & external female organs and external male organs are formed from the same fetal tissues. There are charts of this but I am going best from memory. clitoris-penis, labial lips -scotum, lower 1/3 of vagina - forgot, upper 2/3 of vagina - intermal male parts. etc. Any way, dihydrotestosterone has a different receptor than regular testosterone and if it is not produced the external expression of malesness will not develop. So You have here not a female but a male who looks like a female. Internally and biologically they are male, but externally the look female.

Proof? The choice of gender is not made at this time (I do not know the time of the first genetic gender expression but read on) it is already determined and is often evenually exposed.
There are 2 common ways.

1) A "girl" finds in her late teens or 20s she develops lumps in her labial lips. A doctor on inspection finds these are his testicals descending into his lablial lips. Ya freaky. If she was genetically female they would be ovaries and never descend. Suicide rates are very high and DNA counselors are usually brought in before revealing results.

2) There is a group of hermaphrodites in I believe the Dominican Republic, I forget but its in that area, who upon reaching puberty who though they still do not have dihydrotestosterone the spikes of testosterone well overwhelm the receptors and during puberty they develop a penis scrotum and their testicals descend. Becoming fully males. This is genetic and runs in famililes. Intersestingly they are considered to be likely to be sensitive to female issues and so are more sought after for marriage and propogate their strain of hermaphroditism.

By the way many famous models are "supermales" tall broadshouldered -male statured female looking hermaphrodites. My roomie could name several.

This is the physical part as for the influence on the brain that I do not know. But I am sure there is a huge amount of study speculation disagreement and arguemnt on the subject.

Hope you all find this intersting

 

[13788]

suaige:

Originally posted by madame_zora@Jul 27 2004, 06:30 AM
Wow, once again I am put in my place. I couldn&#39;t agree more...back to the ol&#39; drawing board for me&#33; What&#39;s wrong with being a judgemental asshole anyway?
I really DO hate abusers, rapists, incest, beastiality, racists, and thick-headed people, so why fight it?

As always, DMW, I appreciate your clarity.

Not a rebuke to madame but a thought and a question for all. I think a pivotal one any my response on the thread.
I really DO hate abusers, rapists, incest, bestiality, racists, and thick-headed people, so why fight it?
This is a pretty blanket statement judge jury and executioner type.

There is a huge range of situations here.

Abuse, seemingly an open and closed case. I do not condone abuse at all&#33;&#33;&#33; But, did you know that most who molest children do it not out of hatred, anger or the desire to hurt. But, out of the desire to fix and repair and get it done right. Weird eh. They were often molested and didn&#39;t like it so they try to do it the right way as an adult trying to repair their hurt. They may be so wacked they do what they probably never imagined they could possibly do. And haunted by it for the rest of their life, especially if they get help and heal from their own injury, then live a life being hated and vilified by those who do not understand and blanketly judge them.

Rapists - Yes this is mostly done out of hatred and is intended to harm.

Incest, now this is interesting topic and I hope I do not offend. But I add homosexuality. Here&#39;s why. What is considered taboo or acceptable in these categories are determined usually by one of 2 issues - social norms and opinions and/or moral and religious beliefs. Nice to note inccest stites as an action not person.

Still not identical. Incest can cause a lot of boundary issues and can create a lot of relationship difficulties for life. I.e. with whom is it appropriate to have sex with ? Adults? kids? etc. etc. Homosexuality is often viewed to be the same, but I do not believe this is credible. But for those who view it as morally or religiously reprehensible it is looked at almost the same- both morally wrong. Ripping at the family that has been the fabric of society for 1000s of years and as spiritually offensive and injurious.

Bestiality the same but one more step up on seriousness. Especially for those who do not believe in creation, but consider humans to be special from animals. Nice to note this is sited as an action not person.

Racists Well I think that is mostly caused by hatred and ignorance is it not. Hating others because they hate - intriguing. I am watching a program and the V2 rocket construction tunnels that were built by slave Jew labor (3000 were killed just digging the tunnel). Hatred even of haters is dangerous. Ya sometimes war is necessary. Sad but true.

Thick- headed people, Don&#8217;t know how to excuse them if its not physical- have to give them the benefit of the doubt I guess. WILLFUL ignorance drives me up a wall. Never run out of things to work on.

So QUESTION
IS IT POSSIBLE TO HATE THE ACTION BUT NOT THE ACTORS.
For a long time I really hated what my molester did to me. During counseling I started to hate him to a truly terrifying degree. Now I understand and have been able to forgive him and became stronger in the process

As for those who believe in things different from our own. This is a 2 edged sword. Unfortunately many hate the actor and action.

This is where I tie in to the topic. There is a growing amount of tolerance for homosexuality in the U.S. and the push for and against it is becoming near militant.
Many call for tolerance and acceptance and equal treatment. Often labeling those who do not support this as intolerant, old fashioned, backward and close-minded. A Civil Rights Battle they say. And yes there is much intolerance and discrimination. Some site biology as a reason - a whole different topic.
Others feel they are called upon to give up that witch they hold most precious -- their religious beliefs and the foundation of their life to accept that which they decry as one of the greatest crimes on earth - a form of serious immorality. Feeling they must fight for that which they believe or the courts will rewrite & dictate religious beliefs. A Moral Imperative Battle they say. Some unfortunately are truly dangerously intolernt in proving it.

Where is the country headed remains to be seen. 1 state recognises and offers same sex marriage. 38 states have constitutions ammendments banning same sex marriage and not recognizing those done in other states. Missouri voted 70% in favor of the same the other day close to becoming 39 states not recognizing it. 10 more are expected to vote with in 1 yr. Society in general. I think the amendments say a lot. A recently published book by a professor who was touted as renowned sociologist by the news (from yale or harvard or the like) Wrote Who Are We. He pinned the percentages at 80% still believing in the traditional Judeo/Christian beliefs on which the U.S. were founded -- often the silent majority. And the remainder being mostly the farther left wing in politics, the media and Hollywood. An influential and highly visible and often outspoken group that seems larger than perhaps it really is.

Me well if you read my shorter book rant/vent/get it off my chest in Meet and Greet you know why I talk so decisively on abuse and sex crimes. I am very much one of those who say this is a moral battle. And feel I am being slandered as insensitive close-minded and hateful. I hope I may never be so. I come not to this lightly, it took 18 years to deal with my own gender issues. I hold my religious beliefs and faith as the most important and sustaining part of my life that gives it greater meaning. Further more my little brother is actively and openly supporting GBLT rights and has a frustrating time not understanding why his family can not support his gay life style and fight for greater acceptance and yet believe we still love him and support him.

I hope what ever the out come we can remember to be intolerant of actions and not actors or it can be a living hell for all. It doesn&#8217;t matter what side of which battle we stand on.

Man I am long winded. But I hope what I have said might add same understanding to this discussion. Both to those involved and to those abroad.

suaige

 

[13788]

suaige: a quick addition to 1st post, attempting to have sex many hermaphrodites discover they are missing most of their euterus, vagina and overies and thereby learn they are not really females.

 

[jonb]

Abuse -- There was a big scuffle between the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association a while back because one guy on the latter proposed that sex between adults and prepubescent children was harmless. In the end, he got larted out of a certification.
Rapists -- As I said, rapists like to blame the woman. I&#39;ve always said, if a woman plays with a man&#39;s sexuality without the intent to sleep with him, the man has every right to go into the bathroom, unzip his pants, wrap his hand around his penis, and stroke until ejaculation.
Incest -- Basically, the incest taboo is a way of "error-trapping" against peculiarities not predicted by a society&#39;s kinship protocols, such as marrying your mother. The opposite taboo, against marrying people too far-removed, is called endogamy. Since kinship forms the basis of society, incest is a danger to society as a whole. Americans probably have the fewest incest/endogamy rules on the planet because of the emphasis on the nuclear family; it&#39;s strange that in the "enlightened" US, the main criterion for marriage is gender.
Bestiality -- Even if you don&#39;t believe in creation, there are other problems with bestiality. One of Darwin&#39;s proofs was how we have to deal with many of the same diseases as other species. Needless to say, sex is a wonderful vector for diseases.
Racists -- Sadly, the racists have a whole variety of freedoms protecting them. They have the first amendment mainly. Thankfully, LPSG has few racists.
Thick-headed people -- The net&#39;s full of them.

 

[13788]

suaige:

Originally posted by jonb@Aug 8 2004, 02:01 AM

Incest -- Basically, the incest taboo is a way of "error-trapping" against peculiarities not predicted by a society&#39;s kinship protocols, such as marrying your mother.

what is error trapping?

 

[jonb]

Well, in computing, error-trapping refers to the portion of the program which, when something unexpected comes up, terminates the program and gives the user a cryptic clue as to what happened.

By extension, I was using it to refer to other unexpected occurrances such as marrying your mother: If you marry your mother, then you&#39;re technically your own father, which really screws up kinship obligations because it makes your brothers your sons. As such, every society disapproves of incest, but the types of relationships disapproved of vary: For example, the Jews disapproved of marrying your aunt, but not your niece. This assymetry goes back to the preference to marry women of later generations which in turn goes back to the mix of polygyny and female infanticide. (If they didn&#39;t marry younger generations, there wouldn&#39;t be enough women to go around.)