Why the aggression and attitude?

[B_big dirigible]

In the spring, I will put those away, and put out some more spring-like things

Exercise, or busywork?

If it's worth putting up at all, it's worth leaving up all year. And the corollary - if it's not worth leaving up all year, it's not worth putting up temporarily, either.

That's my opinion, and I'm stuck with it.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Exercise, or busywork?

If it's worth putting up at all, it's worth leaving up all year. And the corollary - if it's not worth leaving up all year, it's not worth putting up temporarily, either.

That's my opinion, and I'm stuck with it.

Hahah, not exercise or busywork... nothing wrong with a change of scenery when I pull things out to do some cleaning. Rotate the stock, so to speak.

 

[kalipygian]

I wish everyone a GAY YULE.

Yule is a perfectly good and ancient word for the cold season, used to be in northern europe before latinizing the name for the month the solstice came in.

If something latin is preferred, you could wish someone a HAPPY SATURNALIA (a several day celebration in which gifts were exchanged) or a HAPPY DIES NATUS SOL INVICTUS (XXV Decembris, the birthday of the sun, the cult of the unconquered sun was very popular in the later roman empire, untill it was like all other religious expression supressed by the christian emperors)

None to few of the customary seasonal practices are origonal to christianity.

 

[BuddyBoy]

LOL Andrew, I find it incredibly interesting (from a psychology point of view) that you find her "merry christmas" greeting to be genuine and caring, and my "happy hanukkah" response to be polite but intentionally provocative, especially since you don't know the personality of either person. I'm not taking offense at you, just observing that with two innocent comments, the christmas one is assumed to be innocent and the hanukkah one is assumed to be an intentional provocation.

Sigh. People are either "blind", "don't understand" or are "interesting from a psychology point of view" when they don't agree with you, it seems.

Try this take: there are two components to every action, the state of mind or intention, or mens rea, and the action istelf, or actus reus.

When someone wished you a "Merry Christmas," I think it's safe to assume the intention was positive. If you were an observent Jewish guy and offered "happy hanukkah" in the same spirit, that would be genuine and caring and not provacative.

However, your intention, or mens rea, did not on the face of it appear to be offering her a holiday greeting, but creating conflict or highlighting your disagreement with her expression of holiday cheers to you, hence, by my definition, provocative.

Feel free to nominate me for a "psychological study." ::

 

[BuddyBoy]

If something latin is preferred, you could wish someone a HAPPY SATURNALIA (a several day celebration in which gifts were exchanged)

I prefer saturnalia, which is why my seasonal montage usually includes some silver (the gift traditionally given by the wealthy) and tapers or beeswax candles (the gifts traditionally given by the poor). The one thing I don't do is go and clean my housecleaner's apartment. :biggrin1:


PS. This year, the beeswax candles are in the menorah!

 

[madame_zora]

Exercise, or busywork?

If it's worth putting up at all, it's worth leaving up all year. And the corollary - if it's not worth leaving up all year, it's not worth putting up temporarily, either.

That's my opinion, and I'm stuck with it.

Oh no, I fear the Earth itself my suffer tremors, but I agree with you there.

Is that your face in your avatar? You're kinda cute.

 

[DaveyR]

Oh no, I fear the Earth itself my suffer tremors, but I agree with you there.

Is that your face in your avatar? You're kinda cute.

MZ talking about Big D!!!!!!!! There must be hope for World Peace. Or is it just the season of goodwill to all men.

 

[Shelby]

I don't believe the Jesus fairy tale.

But I celebrate Christmas anyway because Santa is real. You can see him in the faces of young children.
​

 

[novice_btm]

...Is that your face in your avatar? You're kinda cute.

HOLY SHIT!!! Hell DID freeze over!

MZ talking about Big D!!!!!!!! There must be hope for World Peace. Or is it just the season of goodwill to all men.

You weren't kidding!

Someone please hold me. My world has completely turned upside down.

 

[DaveyR]

HOLY SHIT!!! Hell DID freeze over!


You weren't kidding!

Someone please hold me. My world has completely turned upside down.

I should have sent you a link but I figured you would find it sooner or later. Do you think we will get an invite to the Nuptials? Bridesmaids even? Although I don't suit pink.:wink:

 

[rob_just_rob]

Rob, if christmas were not such a marketing racket, would those sales not simply be distributed throughout the rest of the year? A remarkable percentage of the population curb buying before and after christmas, so that they can "afford the season."

I have hunted around for the source for the following assertion - that people spend beyond their means at the holidays, beyond what they would ordinarily spend absent the holidays. This tends to suggest that sales wouldn't be spread out through the rest of the year if the christmas holidays didn't exist - the sales would simply disappear. All this was contained in an analysis of consumer spending patterns that I read last year and promptly forgot about until today.

I do think that US consumer spending studies lump the post-Thanksgiving shopping binge (which I am told is a HUGE deal in the USA) in with christmas, even though it could be considered a phenomenon unto itself. That might skew things... somewhat.

 

[dannymawg]

Another vote for Festivus here :biggrin1:

It's hard to describe here, but the older I get, the more I realize just how empty and crass and evil x-mas is. x-mas is seen in kids faces because they are conditioned to expect gifts. I have a fucked up love/hate relationship with advertising/marketing (see mercurial's "new names for lube" thread), and seeing how the Church has marketed itself over the years (speaking of conditioning)... yes, it has become an intrinsic part of the world economy. Think of all the Chinese factories cranking out the latest fashion in x-mas gear. Ooo... LED lights! Gotta have those!

I have a really hard time with December in general as everyone gives into the endorphins released when shopping. This, at a time where I'm way more conscious of another year passing and another year coming, and dealing with might be a undiagnosed case of SAD, which always sounds like some bad joke. So the only way I can handle it is to boycott the holidays except for the solstice.

For as much as I hate on x-mas and sound like an asshole, I do extend more than enough common courtesy in daily living, as Mdme. Z points out. Sometimes in the right company/circumstances I'll drop a "Merry Fucking Christmas" for a gift in exchanging pleasantries :biggrin1:

But otherwise I play dumb, curse myself for doing my inner id wrong, and then drink it off.

 

[AndrewEndowed24]

Deep, you said yourself that you knew she was a committed Christian. She was thus probably being frank in her desire to wish you a merry christmas. You on the other hand admitted that the only reason you responded with a 'happy hannukah' was to see how she would react: thus you must have suspected that she would not react well. I admitted that 'technically' you were being appropriate but the spirit of the gesture was clearly to demean and she probably sensed that.

I will be frank, I don't spend any time with evangelicals but whenever someone wishes me a merry christmas i do not sense any significant effort on there part to rub my face in their culture, it is a simple friendly gesture. However those who dislike the status-quo tend and who want to emphasize pluralism tend to do so bitterly, there is something quite snarky in a non-jew wishing another non-jew happy hannukah after one of them says merry christmas. Such a response contains a level of aggression that is not present in the original greeting of merry christmas.

To say merry christmas is almost never a conscious attempt to demean other cultures or beliefs, but to respond to a non-jew who says merry with christmas with a happy hannukah if you are not jewish is clearly an attempt to ironize the holidays.


I also think there are some misconceptions about what your 'rights' entail. You do not have the right to feel as if people in your work-place respect you or your beliefs, you do not have the right to the approval of your co-workers. You have the right to ironize christmas if you want (they have no right to expect that you return their greetings or play into their fantasies of a universally christian nation as could be inferred from the previous sentence) but they certainly don't violate your rights in anyway by wishing you a merry christmas and getting upset when you don't respond as they hoped. Just as they don't have a right to your approval, you don't have a right to theirs.

Also in your original response to my criticism I believe you confused me with the woman you said this to. Her angry response may have said something about her psychology in assuming that you were acting in 'bad faith' no pun intended -but my response say little about my psychology because you admitted your intentions were just to subvert the concept of christmas as a universal holiday as well as to 'see how she would react'. My view that you acted in bad faith was informed by your own comments, not my preconceptions.

 

[Gillette]

DC, I do see the issue that you have with people assuming that you share their beliefs and greeting you in such a way. I'm wondering if those coworkers you spoke of knew of your beliefs, or lack therof, at the time. That would put a different spin on things. If they know your position they should definitely respect it.

I, personally both love and hate this time of year. On the one hand there is a feeling of cheer and on the other the extra activity can be hell on ones nerves.

As far as greetings go, I'll usually stick with "Happy Holidays" as it seems pretty non-specific. I know, I know, Holiday stems from Holy day but Victoria Day is a holiday too and I don't actually worship her.
If I know the others persons religion I'll wish them a happy Hanukah, Christmas, Ramadan, Solstice, etc, as seems appropriate. I think of it in terms of semantics. If a friend is leaving for vacation I'll wish them a happy trip even though I won't be sharing it with them. For me it's more about wishing them joy on their occasion regardless of my own position on it.

You shouldn't be forced to decorate according to the holidays, but if you do enjoy decorating and want to beat them to the punch snowflakes and icicles say nothing more than "it's winter". Other suggestions just for shits and giggles would be the grinch or simply replacing your office door with a beaded curtain. My evil imagination is enjoying itself now. Cover your door with contact cement! Anyone choosing to decorate it themselves will literally find themselves decorating it. Okay, maybe not the best suggestion.

Just this past weekend I heard a program on the radio debating Christ role in Christmas. Something the speaker said made me smile. "Anyone who thinks it's appropriate to receive gifts on Christ's birthday should also expect to be crucified at easter."

Here's hoping your felicitation frustrations are kept to a minimum in the future.

 

[LaurenceO]

It's Festivus for the rest of us.

i DO love Christmas trees though.

I think as an adult, I wont practice Christmas any longer. I should have to buy people presents every year.

great episode

 

[kalipygian]

Christmas was once illegal.

When there was a puritan theocracy in new england in the 17th century, it was in the statutes, you were fined if caught decorating or celebrating; the decorations were destroyed.

I think this was also the case during the interregnum in England.

It was considered popish.

Here the local fundies put ads in the paper offering to cover legal expenses for anyone denied the right to put up a nativity. (no one is trying to keep anyone from putting one up) They are ignorant that their their sects started out in the 16th century smashing religious images. I don't think they know either that less than a century ago only italian catholics had nativities. (they are re-adopting popish practices)

 

[DC_DEEP]

Sigh. People are either "blind", "don't understand" or are "interesting from a psychology point of view" when they don't agree with you, it seems.

You are right, BuddyBoy - it's my persecution complex setting in. Have you read all my posts in this thread, or just the opening post?

Try this take: there are two components to every action, the state of mind or intention, or mens rea, and the action istelf, or actus reus.

When someone wished you a "Merry Christmas," I think it's safe to assume the intention was positive. If you were an observent Jewish guy and offered "happy hanukkah" in the same spirit, that would be genuine and caring and not provacative.

However, your intention, or mens rea, did not on the face of it appear to be offering her a holiday greeting, but creating conflict or highlighting your disagreement with her expression of holiday cheers to you, hence, by my definition, provocative.

Feel free to nominate me for a "psychological study." ::

If you had actually read my other posts, BuddyBoy, you would realize that I did not give a full narrative of events. I was not a newbie on the job, and my co-workers were well aware that I was not christian, nor did I celebrate christian holidays. It was an ongoing thing with some of them. I did not use the same greeting/response every time. I did often use "happy holidays" or "merry christmas" or "happy hanukkah". I specifically chose to use the example I used, because it resulted in a co-worker filing a formal complaint against me. Or did you not see that in my previous post?

I'm still struggling here, trying to understand why you and a couple of others "assume" good faith on the part of Karen, and assume "provocation" on my part. I was simply trying to be multicultural. No, I'm not a practicing jew. Nor am I a practicing christian. Why do you villify me for using a variety of responses? Yes, Karen knew beforehand. We had worked together for more than 5 years at that time. She was the only one offended enough to file a complaint with management that I was trampling her rights as a christian. Can you be certain that her intent was innocent? Can you be sure that mine was not?

 

[DC_DEEP]

DC, I do see the issue that you have with people assuming that you share their beliefs and greeting you in such a way. I'm wondering if those coworkers you spoke of knew of your beliefs, or lack therof, at the time. That would put a different spin on things. If they know your position they should definitely respect it.

Yes, Gillette, my co-workers did know. During a break-time conversation, with several of us standing in the break area, another co-worker responded to a comment by saying "well, it's in the bible, look it up." I told her I didn't have a bible, because I'm not christian. She looked at me like I was from another galaxy, and said "You are a christian believer, you just don't know it. You have to have a bible. Everyone has a bible." I was not the one who was wearing my beliefs on my sleeve... I just refused to "go along" when it was assumed that I was christian. I would always politely, but firmly, remind them that some people have differing views. As I said before, I could have tattled to the manager that I was being mistreated, but that didn't cross my mind.

And ya know, it still strikes me as very odd that some on this board insist that it's bad intent on my part if I ask to be excluded from christmas celebration, and insist that the pro-christmas people have nothing but good intent when they demand that I discard my beliefs in favor of their own.

 

[vinny_spiruccino]

**hobbles in with a dirty face, a tear in my eye, raggedy clothes, and on a crutch**

I think you're need to be paid a visit by the ghosts of LPSG past, present & future. Don't be surprised if DMW shows up in your room in the middle of the night wearing white & rattling chains...

God bless us, everyone, and even you Ebenezer Deep! *tickles Ebenezer's balls*

But in your defense - I don't think that anyone here who finds it offensive that you celebrate holidays as you wish would jump through hoops to knock on their Indian neighbors door completely aware of the need to wish them a Good Diwali... or return the greetings of the muslims trying to sell them smelly oil & meat patties when they get off the subway with a heartfelt ""wa `Alaykum As-Salām" and a big smile... just a thought.

 

[BuddyBoy]

You are right, BuddyBoy - it's my persecution complex setting in. Have you read all my posts in this thread, or just the opening post?If you had actually read my other posts, BuddyBoy, you would realize that......

And yes, he score! The other patented DC_Deep slam! :biggrin1: