Will there always be an England, whatever the origin of its people?

[D_Relentless Original]

Almost one in eight people living in the UK are now foreign born after hitting record levels in the wake of the largest wave of immigration in history.

It meant that just under seven million people living in Britain were immigrants – enough to fill a city the size of London.


The rise was largely down to Labour's "open door" immigration policy, under which three million foreigners were added to the population during the party's 13 years in power.


The figures, which were compiled by the Office for National Statistics, were disclosed amid a renewed debate on immigration.


David Cameron warned yesterday that uncontrolled immigration had undermined some British communities and led to "discomfort and disjointedness" in neighbourhoods.

Whats your thoughts? this is taken from the Telegraph newspaper.

Also, can having an opinion on immigration be classed as Discriminating or even racist?

On a personal note, I notice that most of the markets are now closing and all that can be bought at the ones open are asian clothes, foods etc.

Churches are being turned into Mosques or being knocked down to build more mosques.

Is the the 'English' culture, way of life on its way out?

 

[ManofThunder]

Personally, I don't mind immigration. As long as it restricts criminals and those who bring nothing to the table from entering - I'm happy. Labour did allow far too many people in though - some of whom only wished to scrounge off our more socialist system while those more deserving were suffering. I don't think it's racist to want immigration restriction. It is however racist to deny any foreign visitors/immigrants at all. The example you gave, about the city of London - is a positive statistic to me. If all the immigrants would only fill London while the rest of Britain remained populated my native British, what's the problem? We still get to keep our culture but also have the positive input from other countries and cultures. The churches are declining slightly, yes. This has more to do with the decline of Christianity and Catholicism in Britain though. The UK is (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) around fifty-percent atheist. The religions of other countries are backed by much greater numbers. So, the odd mosque is inevitable and architecturally, I don't mind at all. Churches are nice and I do prefer the more medieval building-style overall - but the injection of foreign architecture is quite refreshing to me. Those are my thoughts anyway.

 

[Jason]

In real life almost anything that is said about immigration may be seen as racist. So most people keep quiet.

Immigrants do bring a lot to the country. The economic arguments for more immigration are strong. But there is a practical problem in the UK, a nation that has run out of space. We're short of land to build more houses and to build the infrastructure for people - schools, hospitals, roads. And there is a social problem around integration - too many, too quickly causes problems.

So yes Cameron is right - we need good migration not mass migration.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

The UK is (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong) around fifty-percent atheist.

It's not that high, MoT.
Perhaps half that ... including agnostics in the mix.
But far fewer than before belong to any church, or attend regularly.
Secularism is really taken over.
But that's true throughout western Europe.

 

[ManofThunder]

It's not that high, MoT.
Perhaps half that ... including agnostics in the mix.
But far fewer than before belong to any church, or attend regularly.
Secularism is really taken over.
But that's true throughout western Europe.

Thanks for the correction, Hhuck. I thought back to where I first heard that percentage and, I'm ashamed to say - it was from the lips of Bill O'Reilly. Perhaps a Richard Dawkins interview. I can't find the clip online but I'm pretty sure that's where I heard it. Forgive me! :redface:

 

[Endued]

To define 'Englishness' fairly and accurately you have to include the cultures and ways of life of all the English people whose heritage is from a different country - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, Nigeria, Ghana, Italy, Poland etc., not to mention Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Ignoring all that and suggesting that this 'Englishness' is diminishing because percentage-wise there are fewer people who practice Morris dancing or some shit, is just weird, and borderline racist.

So yeah, there will always be an 'England', because there is no enduring definition, nor should there be.

 

[ManofThunder]

To define 'Englishness' fairly and accurately you have to include the cultures and ways of life of all the English people whose heritage is from a different country - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, Nigeria, Ghana, Italy, Poland etc., not to mention Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Ignoring all that and suggesting that this 'Englishness' is diminishing because percentage-wise there are fewer people who practice Morris dancing or some shit, is just weird, and borderline racist.

So yeah, there will always be an 'England', because there is no enduring definition, nor should there be.

Name appropriate. :biggrin1:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Forgive me! :redface:

Ha!
Of course.

To define 'Englishness' fairly and accurately you have to include the cultures and ways of life of all the English people whose heritage is from a different country - India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, China, Nigeria, Ghana, Italy, Poland etc., not to mention Scotland, Ireland and Wales. Ignoring all that and suggesting that this 'Englishness' is diminishing because percentage-wise there are fewer people who practice Morris dancing or some shit, is just weird, and borderline racist.

So yeah, there will always be an 'England', because there is no enduring definition, nor should there be.

I think you're running two distinct ideas together.

Of course, in one sense, whatever it means today to be 'English' would have something to do with the lives and experience of the vast range of people who are living in England.

But there's also a historical sense, and I see nothing wrong with keeping it in mind.

Imagine if someone from an old Abu Dhabi family remarked that something essential about Abu Dhabi was being diluted by all the immigrants from the Indian peninsula, many parts of Africa, and yes, from the UK, who now constitute the majority of the population in Abu Dhabi.

I think that remark would be not only justifiable but obvious.

It's like mixing colours in a pot. You might begin with blue, but as you add yellow and red, the colour changes. At any one moment, there is always a particular overriding colour in the pot, but that doesn't mean that the original blue is still dominant.

You could say, The contents of the pot used to have colour X, and now The contents of the pot have colour Y, and, whether X or Y, it's always the colour of the contents of the pot, and it's beautiful.

But you could also say, quite uncontroversially: There used to be a lot of blue, and now there isn't.

 

[maxcok]

There will always be an England, as long as there's a Shakespeare.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

^^^^^^^^
Sheesh.
It's beautiful.

 

[maxcok]

^ ^ ^ I don't know that it's the most compelling performance I've witnessed, but it's what I could find.

Nevertheless, the language and the sentiment is transcendant.


In reference to the topic, this one line in particular jumped out at me:

"That England, that was wont to conquer others,
..Hath made a shameful conquest of itself."
​

 

[superbot]

What you need to remember is that something like 95% of the UK populace are indigenous.It would take several centuries to realistically see that number significantly go down.Most immigrants won't actually call themselves English anyway,chosing British instead,as English is associated with Anglo Saxon which of course defines a specific race.All things considered,I think the Prime Minister is correct in saying that multi-culturalism has failed.Go away for a few weeks then return to England and you see how overwhelmingly England really is.I did this a couple of years ago,you'd be surprised how unique our country really is!!

 

[B_Hickboy]

Fuck society.