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Will there come a day when being gay isn't a stigma?
- Thread starter earllogjam
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An "abnormality"? Are you freaking kidding me?
As persistent and prevalent as homosexual behavior is (practiced to some degree or another by waaay more than the 10% or so of the population who identify as predominantly or exclusively gay), and as it's "naturally occuring" as you point out, you can hardly call it an "abnormality".
How magnanimous of you.
Neither does sex on birth control, or oral sex, or masturbation, or playing football, or crocheting for that matter.
Does that mean these activites are "abnormal"?
Egad, you're still an idiot. :rolleyes2:
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Bbucko
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I think that, as the range of replies here demonstrates, diversity always comes at the price of a certain tension; the minute that differences are recognized, there's a judgement that takes place. Here's a classic, and from someone who loudly vaunts his own "socially tolerant/progressive/liberal" POV:
He uses a variation on one of the words I've tried to eliminate from my vocabulary (normal), because it's only meaningful if you believe in a superior "norm", and I do not. His belief that there's a superiority in being "normal" is illustrated again (and even more clearly) by his use of "odd" in his final sentence.
But it also illustrates that he doesn't understand what a stigma is (for that matter, neither does the OP), as it's not the same as a prejudice, for instance. It's not something that simply is, it's something which is carried by those to whom subjectively it's applied:
Modern American usage of the words "stigma" and "stigmatization" refers to an invisible sign of disapproval which permits "insiders" to draw a line around the "outsiders" in order to demarcate the limits of inclusion in any group. The demarcation permits insiders to know who is "in" and who is "out" and allows the group to maintain its solidarity by demonstrating what happen to those who deviate from accepted norms of conduct (Falk, 2001). Stigmatization is an issue of disempowerment and social injustice (Scheyett, 2005).
There are some stigmas which I recognize and apply, for instance: to drug addicts or child molesters or white supremacists (no, I'm not equating them, merely listing them as three relatively easy targets for stigma application). I stigmatize drug addicts because experience has taught me that I cannot trust them and that, eventually, they will steal from you in order to maintain their addictions. I do not extend this stigma to someone who is no longer using, though I would probably continue to have trust issues with them until proven unjustified. Child molesters/pedophiles can also at least attempt to control their behaviors, though I do not believe that they can be "cured"; I don't pretend to have any answers on how they can be integrated into a larger community. Since white supremacists don't even recognize that their hate is a symptom of pathology, I am even less sympathetic to them than I am to child molesters.
I believe that I am completely justified in applying a stigma to the people I've listed above; there is no place in my life for any of them. And even if no specific criminality can be pinned to a white supremacist, I feel that their views alone justifying my viewing them as a pariah and excluding them from my sphere.
As to the OP: in a word, NO. There are large populations who believe in stigmatizing women for gawd's sake, and womanhood is statistically the largest human majority in the entire world. With that level of stigma still actively perpetrated around the globe, I see no hope for LGBTs. That's why I've always specifically chosen to live in places where my sexual orientation is a non-issue.
I can't change the world, but I can choose which piece of it I inhabit. I don't care what anti-gay bigots think of me any more than I care what drug addicts, child molesters and white supremacists think about me. As long as they're not actively intruding into my journey of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness I can ignore them; if I feel as though I am being personally targeted, I'd have no problem coming up with ways of creatively neutralizing their threat. I've done it before and will do it again, no doubt.
He uses a variation on one of the words I've tried to eliminate from my vocabulary (normal), because it's only meaningful if you believe in a superior "norm", and I do not. His belief that there's a superiority in being "normal" is illustrated again (and even more clearly) by his use of "odd" in his final sentence.
But it also illustrates that he doesn't understand what a stigma is (for that matter, neither does the OP), as it's not the same as a prejudice, for instance. It's not something that simply is, it's something which is carried by those to whom subjectively it's applied:
Modern American usage of the words "stigma" and "stigmatization" refers to an invisible sign of disapproval which permits "insiders" to draw a line around the "outsiders" in order to demarcate the limits of inclusion in any group. The demarcation permits insiders to know who is "in" and who is "out" and allows the group to maintain its solidarity by demonstrating what happen to those who deviate from accepted norms of conduct (Falk, 2001). Stigmatization is an issue of disempowerment and social injustice (Scheyett, 2005).
There are some stigmas which I recognize and apply, for instance: to drug addicts or child molesters or white supremacists (no, I'm not equating them, merely listing them as three relatively easy targets for stigma application). I stigmatize drug addicts because experience has taught me that I cannot trust them and that, eventually, they will steal from you in order to maintain their addictions. I do not extend this stigma to someone who is no longer using, though I would probably continue to have trust issues with them until proven unjustified. Child molesters/pedophiles can also at least attempt to control their behaviors, though I do not believe that they can be "cured"; I don't pretend to have any answers on how they can be integrated into a larger community. Since white supremacists don't even recognize that their hate is a symptom of pathology, I am even less sympathetic to them than I am to child molesters.
I believe that I am completely justified in applying a stigma to the people I've listed above; there is no place in my life for any of them. And even if no specific criminality can be pinned to a white supremacist, I feel that their views alone justifying my viewing them as a pariah and excluding them from my sphere.
As to the OP: in a word, NO. There are large populations who believe in stigmatizing women for gawd's sake, and womanhood is statistically the largest human majority in the entire world. With that level of stigma still actively perpetrated around the globe, I see no hope for LGBTs. That's why I've always specifically chosen to live in places where my sexual orientation is a non-issue.
I can't change the world, but I can choose which piece of it I inhabit. I don't care what anti-gay bigots think of me any more than I care what drug addicts, child molesters and white supremacists think about me. As long as they're not actively intruding into my journey of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness I can ignore them; if I feel as though I am being personally targeted, I'd have no problem coming up with ways of creatively neutralizing their threat. I've done it before and will do it again, no doubt.
Bigotry and fear fuels the hatred, and gay bashing towards young gay men and women has taken on a whole new meaning with the advent of social networking. Case in point: Tyler Clementi, 18, jumped to his death from a bridge after discovering his sexual encounter with another man had been streamed live by a roommate. Even on this site the stigma associated with being gay thrives in many threads. It is sad but true; there will always be those who refuse to accept or acknowledge that being gay does not warrant shame or disgrace and social nonacceptance.
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For as long as there are different people there will be a stigma. I think that as far as law goes, homosexuals will be equal to heterosexual people. But I think it's largely human nature to be afraid of what you don't understand and I think there will always be people incapable of unwilling to understand people different from them.
Getting rid of the stigma happens one person at a time. It's not rocket science or magic. You, as a visible gay man are the catalyst to institute change. The more "normal" and human you appear to be the less stigma is attached to being gay - this happens one acquaintance, friend, co-worker at a time.
I've seen this happen over the last 20 years of my life....hopefully it will continue until the stigma is gone forever.
I've seen this happen over the last 20 years of my life....hopefully it will continue until the stigma is gone forever.
helgaleena
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conntom may think being left-handed or colorblind is an abnormality too. Doesn't mean I don't get citizenship rights if I have these traits, right?
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Bbucko
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Odd: no follow-up from one of the masters of the shit-and-run.
Imagine! Someone "brave" enough to have an unpopular opinion yet hasn't the balls to detail his poor word choice (and I'm being kind in that description).
Hey B,
C'mon man. Why so mean? Sometimes you all on here don't get THE answer you want and you just attack! People have differing opinion on things. YOU of all should know what it means to have a differing stance on something and realize that attacking and belittling someone for it is wrong.
You want equality, you want non judgement - yet I find some of you and your buds here are the WORST offenders.
Shame. But if you yourselves who have been unfairly wronged, can not and will not set a better example - do you really think others will?
Ghandi - look him up. He knew how to be wronged and still be civil, intelligent and thoughtful. You could learn a lot from a man like him.
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helgaleena
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It was on your part an unfortunate choice of words, 'abnormality', for what one is born with. My autistic son when he is 18 will still have the right to vote.
Moi, despite being left handed and disabled, I am not told I cannot marry and have children. One hopes that the minority who are not able to stomach the opposite sex will in other ways still be considered full citizens.
Please get the smiling wench to set down one of those mugs for me.
Helga's post wasn't hyperbolic. Do you even know the meaning of the word?
Bucko didn't "attack" you. Now that's hyperbole. Please stop playing the poor victim. Nobody's buying it.
Standing up against intolerance -- e.g., calling you out for saying that being gay as an "abnormality" -- is not itself an example of intolerance. Why do people of your mindset not get this?
And stop with the dishonest deflections about "equality" and "judgement". Review prior comment again.
Oh brother. Invoking Ghandi. Spare us your disingenuous tripe. :rolleyes2:
Bullshit. You've posted plenty since your "abnormality" comment. Plus you've posted 23 times today alone.
Gee, work must be slow.
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between this thread and the thread started by Ms. BBW in women's issues.... starting to think Conntom may have ODd on asshole and douche last weekend.
*throws rocks at Contom*
for true, queer folk need to demand rights. we need to drop this assimilated/apologetic passivity. no more comprimising and waiting for the day. queer folk need to wake up to the fact that the rights "given" us (not innate to as a being, something allowed us by the ruling hetero class) can be stripped away with enough money and enough votes.
California is proof of that.
collectively we need to get back to the 70/80/90s level of activism and outrage. i don't want to be just like straight people. and i ain't waiting around for approval.
for serious, i got a boot with heteronormative's asshole's name on it.
*throws rocks at Contom*
for true, queer folk need to demand rights. we need to drop this assimilated/apologetic passivity. no more comprimising and waiting for the day. queer folk need to wake up to the fact that the rights "given" us (not innate to as a being, something allowed us by the ruling hetero class) can be stripped away with enough money and enough votes.
California is proof of that.
collectively we need to get back to the 70/80/90s level of activism and outrage. i don't want to be just like straight people. and i ain't waiting around for approval.
for serious, i got a boot with heteronormative's asshole's name on it.
Although attitudes in the 'western world' have changed I do think it is a long way from having no stigma attached in almost everyone's eyes.
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not to post just to disagree but i am not sure the promiscious thing is a generalization...at least among say 22-29 year old gay men in NYC. a good friend and a co-worker who sits next to me at work are both openly gay and at work the guys all go to lunch and discuss what's up in their life. straight guys will have a date and hope they hook up the gay guy chuckles and explains on his dates it is guarenteed if he wants it.
also describs the bars and clubs he goes to...if i walk into a straight bar and scream who wants to suck my dick i am probably getting tackled by a bouncer and ejected. apprantly his roommate had the bartenders in fishnet shirts giving him free shots/free drinks, DJ giving him a shoutout between songs telling other patrons there is a nice young fella by the back right of the bar and he disappeared with an older bouncer for a while.
his stories lead me to believe the culture and atmosphere is alot different...still now
and for the record i have no problem with either.
but browse your local craigs list and count how many females are offering a BJ (for free) then how many males.
and i think promiscious is alive and well
