Will you PLEASE...

rawbone8

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Hello, I'm a mod.
What's more I'm a new mod.

I wasn't here for the initial calamity, so I missed the emotional upheaval.

I don't have psychic powers either, I can't speak for the other mods but I suspect that they are similarly lacking.

Issues come up and I'll ask myself, "How will the board react?" In this instance we were lucky enough to have a previous reaction to this exact same question. Alex8, Rawbone8, both of you voiced your thoughts on the first page quite clearly.

http://www.lpsg.org/et-cetera-et-cetera/24198-e-mail-from-jacinto.html?highlight=E-mail+from+Jacinto

Is there some way by which we are devine when you have changed your minds?

Adding to the original issue is that he snuck back on. Now I know there are many members quick to note when a banned member has crawled back under the wire and call for a quick dismissal. Should we let them all back in?
Put them all up for vote? God bless the popularity contest.

For those who are not familiar with the original story, saying that he killed his ID is a little over simplified. Chrysalis killed an ID and emerged with a new ID and an explanation. DMW, who had spent 8 yrs developing very close relationships with other members, opened seperate accounts (plural) to announce that that the person, not just an ID but the person, everyone had grown to love was dead. This isn't merely an unfunny April foolsday joke.

Imagine if you will your best friend using a voice modulator to call you and tell you that he was lost at sea. Think you'd be torn up a bit? How do you think you'd feel a few months later when you learned it was a hoax. Think you'd be mad?

I think some on this thread are taking an unfair stance.
Lex, I'd like to direct you to the last passage of post #50. It was posted by a very intelligent man.

There will be no witch hunt for who already knew about his presence here, but I would like to say any who have known about it and had the gall to seek moderator assistance in their own personal cause ought to be ashamed of themselves. Wear your hypocrisy with pride.

I'm here for my amusement.

Last year when I, like many others, felt some shock and witnessed others who had formed relationships with DMW go into very intense grieving, I felt upset, but relatively like a bystander. I didn't lose a friend. I had little invested. He contributed as a very popular persona, largely because of his ability to amuse. I never gave a fuck if he was not a 33 year old Cuban ex-stripper. It's a naive construct to expect that everyone on this forum is in reality the person they portray in their posts. I was very upset by the way his awful lack of judgement and consideration led him to orchestrate an intensely upsetting departure. Many felt gravely hurt and some left the board as a result. Time passes and wounds or abrasions heal.

Spoogesicle caught my eye because of his posting style, not as a result of me being a pal who was let in on the game. We are not close at all. I challenged him privately, got enough of a confirmation to satisfy my curiousity, and left it at that. I felt my anger in March, and blasted him then, but am open enough to forgive when I feel ready for it.

If we look at his posting history as Spoogesicle it's been a much more humble, down to earth approach than that of DMW. The wit and playfulness has been there. I can say he fits my criteria for usefulness here. He's intelligent and amusing.

I think the fact he came back without permission may irk the admins, because it is disrespectful. Beyond that, when I see someone I know and like such as Spladle or Danny here on the sly I will keep my thoughts to myself. I favour some folks over others, and over the rules because I see no harm in it, and it fits my agenda for amusement.

I know I could never be a moderator.
 

meatpackingbubba

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What I have observed in my short time on LPSG is a generous dose of drama, the liberal use of double standards, a degree of power-tripping by some moderators, an incredible amount of intolerance by many for differing opinions, and the willingness to quickly resort to personal attack.

That said, I do give credit to at least one moderator whom I have met online and for whom I have respect. I have also had the pleasure of making contact with some members with brains and class.
 

D_Martin van Burden

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You want some hummus with that, HM?

See, the more I read into this, the more I realize that Danny, good or bad, made an intense emotional impact on people here and the board as a whole. Like I tease a guy at work, "When you're good, you're terrific; when you're bad, you're beyond horrible." I think the guy pretty much hits one to one on the duty-to-others consideration. For every person that has nothing but love for the guy, there's another person who felt shunned, turned away, and wants nothing more to boot him in the teeth.

Again, I think the point of offering rehabilitation to everyone subject to banning has been glossed over. I really would rather see a segment of membership agree that someone like Chase -- who, as I recall, was equally adored and toxic -- get contacted outside of the forum and encouraged to reapply for membership.

Then again...

C'mon. Let me lend this idea before the bricks start flyin'. I would assume that the trolls purged from the site simply got tired of this place and... moved on. Danny is being made to sound desperate. Granted, maybe the guy's had his rough times and he's a bit bereft of companionship, but it's not like he's being deprived of his friends here. You guys can contact him, can't you? Don't you talk among each other?

I hope everyone who is dead set on arguing and blaming is as equally committed to participating in talks and working with moderators, and maybe even pulling Mark into this, to decide if a change in the ToS is in order. And if you're willing to make an exception for Danny, I hope you would be as consistently openminded about others who have followed in this path. If you can't be consistent, and if you can't work in the way of impartiality and fair judgment, maybe you should keep quiet.
 

Lex

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...
Pecker had contacted me by PM before banning Spoogesicle to discuss the possibility of having the co-administrators "pull rank" on the moderators, and I PM'ed him back supporting this action. He did not act alone, and you owe him an apology for suggesting that he did.

Yes, after you stormed off in a fit and drew a line in the sand. You know, the same kind of line that big dirigible teases us all about doing--running off until we get our way. You yourself have chastised other members for doing so and then you did it. That makes you a hyporcrite, dude. And it made me instantly lose a lot of respect for you.

...
Regarding our decision-making process, I've already disclosed that this was a decision that Pecker and I pulled rank on -- I felt that the attempt to reach a consensus among the moderators was being tainted by undue hostility and an outright attempt to manipulate the outcome by a moderator who had withheld relevant information, and it's my perception that Pecker felt the same way, though I don't speak for him. ...

I told you, once his account was discovered, that I had JUST found out via a telephone conversation with Jana two days prior that it was Danny (we had just exchanged phone numbers). And I shared that. As I said then and I will say again, my telephone conversations are none of your fucking business. I certainly don't ask you about your rafting trips and lunch meetings with other members, do I? Or have you been sharing all the details you discuss there? I doubt it.

I don't need to manipulate anything. It was as clear as day how everyone felt and you were being outvoted so you ran off and pulled rank. Nice.

Which I why I stepped down.

I won't stand with people (mindseye, Pecker, Prep) who refuse to ever reconsider a decision and who don't feel that anyone can change. It's not personal, just my own principles guding what and how I do.

This is not about Danny, but rather about the belief (in my case) that if someone is punished, they should be given an opportunity to show that they have changed. Yes, this would include Stronzo.

I know there are moderators who feel that an amnesty program is worth a shot - I was one of them. As was Zora, Matthew and many among you now. But if rank keeps getting pulled, what does it matter?
 

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Again, I think the point of offering rehabilitation to everyone subject to banning has been glossed over. I really would rather see a segment of membership agree that someone like Chase -- who, as I recall, was equally adored and toxic -- get contacted outside of the forum and encouraged to reapply for membership.

...

Exactly. But why have rehabilitation when you can have control?
 

Lex

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It's a legitimate question, one that won't get an answer anytime soon if we keep up the snide remarks.

*sighs and ducks anyway*

You are right, Dee. We have attempted to discuss it before and those that entertained the idea were handed a patent "I won't stand for it. Next conversation."

So, I hope you understand my frustrations.
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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1. Wasn't here for the DMW drama
2. Obviously didn't know S was DMW but enjoyed his posts
3. Respect the hell out of both sides in this argument
4. See merit in both adhering to rules and in forgiveness and allowing banned posters to return (it's not as if "crimes" on a message board are all that serious)
5. Can't help feeling conflicted again
6. Wish now that I hadn't read this thread
7. Sighing and hoping that this passes without too many hurt feelings and embitterment
 

invisibleman

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I was.

A lie is one thing. A lie compounded a little bit every day for years, bolstered by sockpuppets, invented brothers, fake pictures, phone calls in which he mustered his phony accent, etc. crosses the line into psychological abuse. You've since formed a friendship with the "real" Danny and have had some time to reconcile yourself with the abuse he caused. Not everyone on here has made their peace with him in the way you have.

I was absolutely horrified to discover that he was back -- and livid that he had gone unnoticed for so long. (And every mod on the board will tell you how psycho I got over it yesterday.) You withheld information from the abuser's victims as he re-insinuated himself into their lives. And when you say "certainly no one was hurt", you are way mistaken.

I was hurt as well. I had consoled a lot of people via PM during the whole thing of hearing Danny/ Jacinto/ Double Meat Head Whopper's ( whoever the fuck he/she/it ) "death". You don't fuck around like that. You just don't. I even joined that fucker's memorial site on MySpace although briefly. To find out, he faked his own death only makes me wish he remain so...dead to LPSG. Let him join a Shakespearean theatre troupe if wants to concoct "multiple personalities". Danny (whoever the fuck you are) be a fucking actor. Move on.
 

RoyalT

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If you missed him and he misses you then there are instant messaging programs now. Surely you and he could sign up to one of those if you aren't already.

I don't know what went on but faking your own death, faking your own life etc is crazy. I haven't seen his posts as bad or inflammatory etc (a la 'Spladle'...). But then what he did was very selfish, melodramatic and probably a sign of some problem the guy has.

I don't know whether he should be allowed here or not but I think there are strong arguments/people on both sides:

1. Some like him
2. Some don't like what he did
3. Many don't care

IM the guy or phone his house. LPSG is not the only form of communication on the planet. Skype is a viable option. Or you could all join another forum and talk there. It's hardly the end of the world and I understand the banning.

Anyway the way I see it is:

Many want/don't mind him being banned
A few do.

The 'few' can easily communicate with him elsewhere and via many other mediums.
 

mindseye

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That makes you a hyporcrite, dude.

It makes me imperfect and human; I've already apologized for that action. The incident you're describing, though, took place within the confidentiality of the moderator forum, and you're being really loose with that confidentiality by discussing the particulars of who did what and said what in there.

I will say again, my telephone conversations are none of your fucking business.
Violations of the TOS absolutely are "my fucking business". You were entrusted with a responsibility to help enforce policy on this board, and you placed your personal friendships above that responsibility. I couldn't care less what you two talked about until the discussion turned to policy matters; once it did, you made a unilateral decision to keep a secret that affected the safety of the members of this board.

I won't stand with people (mindseye, Pecker, Prep) who refuse to ever reconsider a decision and who don't feel that anyone can change.
You know full well that we have reconsidered decisions, and that most of them I'm not privy to discuss in this forum. Two decisions that I can discuss involve you: In 2005, you demanded that Rob_E delete your account, and then changed your mind, and Rob_E welcomed you back. In 2006, you resigned as moderator, and then changed your mind, and both Pecker and I vouched at the time for you to welcome you back as a moderator. (Thank you, by the way, for resigning again; it's the most decent thing you've done all week, and I fully support your decision this time.)

(As an aside, Prep wasn't involved in this decision and it's unfair of you to browbeat him out here.)

It's not personal, just my own principles guding what and how I do. This is not about Danny,
Everybody who thinks this isn't personal and that it isn't about Danny, raise your hand.
 

swordfishME

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I am a new member here and confused as heck by this situation. I am not even sure if I should be weighing in on this topic but I am going to anyway.

This is what I understand. There was a member on here that posted using multiple accounts and used one of these accounts to fake his own death. I find this somewhat harmless behavior, until I read the posts where he had people grieving for him and had a memorial site dedicated to him on another unrelated website. If the intention of this person was to play with people's emotions and exploit the situation to his own advantage; there is something seriously mentally unbalanced about him.

I have started posting a lot on this board and would like to believe that I can take the other posters assertions and stances at face value; although to be completely trusting would be rather naive of me. I would think that part of the moderators and administrators jobs would be to keep people who are on here to exploit other posters feelings and emotions in a potentially harmful way, off this site.

So, if I understand the situation correctly, I appreciate the administrators for taking the actions they have taken to protect this board and the members of the community.
 

Ethyl

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I wasn't here during the DMW brou-ha-ha. Many of the people on this board weren't either. MZ's short-lived poll is quite telling. There are a considerable number of people who would like to see DMW be given another chance, however, there are even more who don't know who the hell he is. It shouldn't come as a surprise that those who knew him would want him to have a second chance and those who didn't feel that the ToS should be enforced without exception. I am of the belief that the ToS should be enforced but also continually evolving. There's no point in having "rules" if they don't benefit the board and its members. Not some of the members. All of them. From my observation of the moderator's position, new circumstances pop up all the time and must be taken into consideration. Does the ToS talk about giving "second chances"? No, it doesn't. We can talk about the fact that DMW should have come forward with an apology, asked for forgiveness and reinstatement, but if the rule is to permanently ban someone with multiple accounts, then why would anyone attempt to make public amends for their actions when the ToS has made it clear they're no longer welcome?

Should someone be given a second chance? That's an excellent question. I agree with Lex that if you give someone a second chance, then all former banned members must be considered for reinstatement if they express the desire to return. Here's my problem with this scenario: There's at least one member (obviously not referring to DMW since I never knew him) who continues to troll these boards with his multiple accounts and shit on other people via PM and threads that I personally don't want to see on these boards ever again and if we offer second chances, we have to give him one too. That means we'd have to put our trust in the mods to make the right decision, something that's apparently difficult for some members, but that's exactly what we'd have to do . Add the clause to the ToS and trust that the mods will make the best decision about that particular former member. How many are willing to do that and accept the mods decision about that member? I'm curious 'cause even i'm not sure how I feel about this.
 

jumbo747jet

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I don't think I am the only one thinking this business has gotten out of proportion.

Membership of the LPSG isn't a right but a privilege and anybody abusing the privilige risk being banned from the community.

This does not mean he or she can't still keep in touch with his or her friends through other media or through other websites.

Let all of us who value the LPSG community keep this a place where we respect eachother.
 

madame_zora

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On my short-lived poll, I had an option for "Who's Danny?" because so many of the posters here now have joined only this year. This site has been around longer than Google, and it's noteworthy that Danny was here from nearly the beginning. Longer than Pecker, longer than Mindseye. In fact, without him and a few key members, the site may not have grown to it's present size and form.

There can never be another exact scenario like this, because there is no one other member who has both been here that long AND posted so much as to actually make people feels they "knew" him. This part I am only too familiar with, and I'd like a chance to address it. People feel they "know" me now sometimes too, and my question is this- do I owe them anything just because they feel that way? My feeling is, no. I open up sometimes because that is what I want to do. I am not taking responsibility for someone else's feelings and I really feel kind of creeped out by it. Still, I do accept that it's part and parcel of posting publicly that some people will (in my opinion) overidentify with me, and in fact consider me their friend, in a way.

This happened with Danny too, and he had very little understanding that it was happening. He felt close to the people he communicated with regularly, but people who just knew him from his posts, well- I don't think he owes them much of anything. Do you feel personally traumatised when a celebrity dies? There are all kinds of people you know by name who are not in your immediate circle, and it's absurd to think they owe you accountability. Heath, you talked to Danny ONE time on the phone, if that equals emotional abuse, then that's YOUR problem.

I'm not defending what he did, not at all. Let us all remember that I was the one he talked to most at that time, and not you. I got over it because I DID ask for an apology and explaination, and I got both in abundance. Danny tried to do that for the whole board, but as you'll recall, Pecker decided to delete tha post Freddie (a fellow moderator) made sharing Danny's letter, and Pecker did this without consulting any of the rest of us. Gillette says I must be psychic- well I was THERE for it all, so not really.

Heath is hurt, and I understand why, but then he doesn't want anyone else to be given credit for any other feelings that differ from his. I posted the poll to find out how many people feel which way. We don't know. As I said, most people probably just don't give a shit, and that's fine. Among those who do have strong opinions, I resent that only two people get to decide how everyone else should feel. Bullshit. Everyone who worked with me as a mod knows that I felt it was mandatory for me as a mod not to let my personal dislike of a person affect their disciplinary status on the board- that is, no one should be disciplined because I didn't like them. I feel that that is being done, and I wish we could do better.

Dee, I like the idea of entertaining the idea of letting a person come back after a given amount of time, perhaps on a probationary basis. A lot of us miss Chase, not to mention the good members we lost because the rules just got too heavy handed. While you and I have disagreed vehemently at times, I don't think either of us ever felt the other didn't have a right to be here, right?
 

D_Martin van Burden

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Very well put, the both of you. I'm glad to see that this issue has more to do than whether or not we elect to like Danny.

I'm gonna end my two cents on the subject with this thought. Some acts are forgivable and some aren't. In the scope of an online forum, I think anyone who resorted to the tactics that Danny did shouldn't be allowed back.

I'm sure he's aware and sincerely apologetic about what he had done in the past, but at the same time, he had to have known his potential to hurt others back when he was doing it. If he hadn't a clue, that would be insulting his owni ntelligence. I don't know if "exploitation" is a word I might have used to describe it, but I certainly believe in "protecting" people from getting verbally or emotionally hurt without regard and other sorts of chaotic behavior. Feeling safe, protection, and free to express and share ideas is what makes LPSG more than a bunch of cock. Even for the most ardent proponents of free speech, there's an implicit understanding that your right to blabber stops when someone else's impingement and pain starts.

Dr. Bubbles is a perfect example of someone who admitted publicly of their wrongdoing and excused themselves from the board, because she knew that the lies had gone far enough and that people were getting affected negatively. It pained her and it pained us who thought she was a great person, but it was probably the best thing for everyone.

You are always in charge and responsible for what you do around here, and there are no excuses for it. That is implicitly written into many of the guidelines of the ToS.

And for the record, I would say the exact same thing to Kim, Monty, Steve, Jumbo, or anyone else who decided to go off the deep end. Do it if you want, but don't be surprised by the consequences.
 

mindseye

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Jana,

It's taken a lot for you to have come from this:

Heath, I don't give a flying fuck what you're happy about or not.

to this:

Heath is hurt, and I understand why, but then he doesn't want anyone else to be given credit for any other feelings that differ from his.

And I appreciate the effort. I don't agree with everything you said in the last post, but you've helped turn the tone of this conversation around, and I respect that. Thank you.
 

Lex

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.. You were entrusted with a responsibility to help enforce policy on this board, and you placed your personal friendships above that responsibility. I couldn't care less what you two talked about until the discussion turned to policy matters; once it did, you made a unilateral decision to keep a secret that affected the safety of the members of this board...

You know full well that we have reconsidered decisions, and that most of them I'm not privy to discuss in this forum. Two decisions that I can discuss involve you: In 2005, you demanded that Rob_E delete your account, and then changed your mind, and Rob_E welcomed you back. In 2006, you resigned as moderator, and then changed your mind, and both Pecker and I vouched at the time for you to welcome you back as a moderator. (Thank you, by the way, for resigning again; it's the most decent thing you've done all week, and I fully support your decision this time.)

This is all factual information, so I am unclear of why it's here. I am not afraid of my own truth. What happened happened and by brining it here, you further demonstrate your inability to forgive and forget. Thanks.

I know it makes you feel better to think that this was some grand conspiracy between me and Zora. It's wasn't. I found out when I found out. Other people found out when they did -- most before me as I have come to discover.

I stepped down so that I would not be conflicted about my friends and some volunteer work I do on a website.

I am happy with my decision and am happy that you are happy with it (Lord knows enough people you dislike have been giving you ulcers this week).

I am more happy, however, to know that there are several mods who understand and accept my decision, who were equally disappointed in your tantrum and iron will, and who want to devise systems by which Chase, Danny, Richard, and anyone one esle they like, can return.

Have fun.
 

madame_zora

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Jana,

It's taken a lot for you to have come from this:



to this:



And I appreciate the effort. I don't agree with everything you said in the last post, but you've helped turn the tone of this conversation around, and I respect that. Thank you.


Well, one of those quotes was a direct response to the very snarky email you sent me, and the other is how I feel about the situation as a whole. I hope you read the WHOLE post, not just that part. There are a variety of people with a variety of feelings, and I'm not sure just shutting the door on Danny without giving anyone else's feelings or needs consideration is the right move. Some might benefit greatly from hearing him explain from his own perspective. You rightly mentioned that that was why I am "over it". Perhaps others should get that same chance. Perhaps it would even be beneficial to you, but I'm not presuming to know what you're feeling other than what you've shown.