Winners and losers in the sexual politics merrygoround.

Discussion in 'Women's Issues' started by Drifterwood, Apr 30, 2009.

  1. Drifterwood

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    I wonder where you think we are with regard to sexual politics.

    Is anyone getting a good deal?

    I don't think men are. I think our culture pushes us down the get married, have kids work your life to pay for it, fuck up pay for it, don't fuck up get left pay for it, don't get married, still pay for it, don't get married, don't have kids, pay for it.

    Do you really think it's a man's world? because from where I sit, it looks like we are just so many drones and worker/soldier ants.
     
  2. B_4inches

    B_4inches New Member

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    I find this outlook, perplexing. Life isn't made up of all the things that happen to me. We each have our circumstance and I will get out of life as much as I decide. It isn't anyones fault that the vast majority of people choose whats easiest.
     
  3. Drifterwood

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    $10.00 says you won't.
     
  4. D_Fiona_Farvel

    D_Fiona_Farvel Account Disabled

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    :post: I'm not having a good man week, personally or professionally, be warned, this may not be as sensitive as it normally would. :08:

    I do think it is still a man's world because women are incredibly undervalued globally. But, in some societies, including western, I acknowledge there is a general feeling that women have an entitlement to male resources and/or to dominate the household/relationship/children - without much more than tacit consent from the man, while making it almost taboo for him to complain.

    However, I think men can be equally demanding and commanding in a relationship, making a woman feel like she has to excel as wife/mate/girlfriend, mom, maid, chef, nurse, co-bread winner - all while looking good and being a whore in the bedroom - because that's the understanding.

    So, while I feel for men and their seeming loss of autonomy, purpose, and personal power, I do not believe women, as a whole, have it much better with the issues we face. In my opinion, the whole social - sexual contract needs to be redefined to create more equality between the sexes. Until that happens, I think too many of us will continue to see the other sex as oppressors, which does not make for a healthy society.

    On a persona level, I respect men and treat/have treated my partner(s :rolleyes:) with the respect they deserve as men. I understand that need, and it does not make me feel less of an independent woman/feminist to give them that regard and equality.
     
  5. B_4inches

    B_4inches New Member

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    Than I guess I should think like you. Frankly I see that outlook as nothing more than posturing for the opportunity to not try as hard as one could. Western society seems to be turning tinto a society where everything becomes relative to how a person feels at any given moment.

    You know what, struggling is necessary. I don't do anyone, least of all me any favors by searching for someone to blame. Sometimes I enjoy trials. I know the possibilities opened on the other side. Acknowleding and embracing this has made me much stronger than many others because I don't simply choose the route thats easiest hindering my life later on by limiting my options.
     
  6. B_Mister Buildington

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    Everybody wins. The civilized world is more egalitarian and just than it ever has been, particularly in reference to gender relations.

    Women still get paid less of course, among other problems, and men have their own particular burdens to bear. Still, I think things are pretty peachy.

    But then I'm young and lucky, so probably naive. (not sarcasm)
     
  7. dolfette

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    in the uk...

    an estimated 80+% of rapes go unreported,
    and only 6% of those reported end in conviction.
    every three days a woman is murdered by a partner or ex partner.

    and as for working to support the kids?
    working women earn 23% less than working men.
     
  8. B_4inches

    B_4inches New Member

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    Those stats are pretty close to ours here in the US. Oh yes, we men have it hard. Frankly I think we're our own worst enemy. Women aren't any friends to themselves anymore either I think.
     
  9. Drifterwood

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    I agree with this. It is taboo to complain, getting on with it is what makes you a real man. But my point is that you get sucked into these expectations and once you do, you can be fucked by the system, which is not man friendly in terms of it's expectations and demands. I am not being in the least comparative, I am just saying that that is how it is.

    An estimated 99% of rapes by women are not reported.
    Official estimates are that at least 10% of allegations of rape are made on malicious grounds. Unofficial estimates are much higher.
    The non reporting of rape is at a very similar rate to other crimes except where an insurance claim is to be made.
    Last year the police surveyed allegations of date rape and drink spiking and found that less than 10% of the victims had less than four times the driving alcohol limit and no trace of drugs used for spiking.
    Reports by Lady Scotland and others have shown that domestic abuse is 50/50 and a recent survey on the under 25's showed that violence is also now 50/50. Report this abuse as a man and the police will arrive and arrest you. This is official police policy. Also try to be taken seriously as a male victim of domestic abuse and violence.
    Women are known to make false allegations of domestic abuse as revenge on ex partners and to protect their free housing and child benefits which they would otherwise lose because of personal drug and alcohol problems at the time of a break up. I can not quote stats on this but it is very high amongst those who make official complaints. I was told this by a close female friend who works in this field.
    Many women workers are part time, and whilst their hourly rate is exactly the same as men, they do not pick up overtime and bonuses which skews the statistics on equal pay.

    I say all this, not because I do not genuinely sympathise with victims of crime and discrimination, but because it is another example where we focus on issues without being held to account for the politicisation of statistics.
     
  10. ManlyBanisters

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    Regardless of which gender you are there are problems to be faced, expectations to be lived up to (or not) and so on.

    You are looking at this from only one side. I know where you are coming from vis a vis the 'man up to things' expectations and I understand your counter arguments to dolfette there. But look at it a different way for a minute. A woman is expected to attract a mate (but not too many - got to get it right in the first few, wouldn't want to be a slut, now), get married (fairly quickly, "don't get left on the shelf!"), have children (fairly quickly, "isn't your biological clock ticking yet, dear?"), make a home, maintain that home, not loose that man to a more attractive and/or younger woman, be the main emotional support for her partner and children and care for other relatives physically and emotionally as the need arises, all while having a career and maintaining her looks and figure - in an environment where women do still generally earn less than men for the same work. If she fucks up and the man leaves she still gets all the workload of the family, if the man fucks up and leaves she still gets all the workload of the family, if the man fucks up and she kicks him out she still gets all the workload of the family and she's a 'bitch', if she fucks up and she leaves she is a fucking pariah. If she decides to try doing the family thing and let the career go, for a while or forever, she's a freeloading bitch - whether the relationship stays together or not. If she decides to do the career thing and leave the family thing to one side, for a while or forever, she's failing as a woman in the eyes of many. If she tries to be both carer and provider she often will get stretched so thin that she does both badly and is seen as a failure.

    Men have it tough, women have it tough = people have it tough.

    But then - life is beautiful, and love is a gift, and if a person can look up from the fucking gutter and away from the bullshit for five minutes he or she can see that and learn to rejoice in whatever he or she has. No one can meet all the expectations - everybody fails at something or other in the eyes of someone or other. So what - it is part of the human condition. I'd rather be lying in the gutter staring at the stars than up on a pedestal looking down into the mud.
     
  11. Gillette

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    ^^^I can give that an "Amen".
     
  12. Drifterwood

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    In my OP I asked whether anyone is getting a good deal. I am only going to presume to talk from a male perspective, so I did. I don't see it as comparative, but my guess was that it would be and that men questioning their deal wouldn't be given much time.

    You know me ManB, so I don't have to attempt to justify my egalitarian credentials, but I do wonder whether men's issues are given the attention that women's are. This doesn't diminish women's issues, it is simply a matter of attention, like prostate and breast cancer.
     
  13. ManlyBanisters

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    If we're all getting a bad deal then it still isn't sexist.

    You're talking about winners and losers and sexual politics and then exemplifying only one half - I think my response fits the thread.

    Now that that is said and we agree what do you want to talk about? If we are all getting short-shrift what's the sexual politics angle? Are you saying there is no longer an imbalance of power? Are you sure about that? I'm not - I think we swing too far one way and over compensate by swinging back too far the other while all putting ourselves under too much pressure. But overall I do believe that a man has slightly more scope for doing stuff just for himself. Maybe that is compensated for by assuming the women somehow owns the family - owns the communal stuff - so it is OK for the man to have the 'man cave', to have the time consuming golf habit that takes him away from the home or whatever. But not all women want to own the communal, they feel like being put in charge of it is a responsibility, not reward. And some men take it to the extreme and don't have the communal - they stay alone. Men are judged far less harshly for that than women are.

    But all in all, these things really can only be looked at on a case by case basis.

    Reminds me of my favourite Trainspotting quote: "One thousand years from now there'll be no guys and no girls, just wankers. Sounds great to me." :smile:
     
    #13 ManlyBanisters, Apr 30, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2009
  14. Drifterwood

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    I will only make statements of opinion about my own sex. I can't see that men's lot has improved any. In fact I think that it is relatively worse and I will give an example later.

    I will ask whether women will acknowledge that they have seen improvements over their mother's generations. What of the Pill? the minimum wage? improvement is home technology and food choice (I am talking about the western world), easier divorce, social help for single mothers, better education and access to the highest levels of education. A lot of these things were hard fought for in the last fifty years.

    My other point is that by contrast men's issues are lost. I googled "men's issues" and "women's issues", 532,000 results compared to 1,850,000.

    I am not saying that there are not issues for women, I am saying that they overshadow men's considerably.

    The Domestic Violence issue is a case in point. Humour me and look at this www.mensaid.com - domestic abuse

    here is an abstract

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Abstract [/FONT]

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The study investigated the widely held belief that violence against partners in marital, cohabiting, and dating relationships is almost entirely perpetrated by men, and that when women assault their partners, it has a different etiology than assaults by men. The empirical data on these issues were provided by 13,601 university students who participated in the International Dating Violence Study in 32 nations. The results in the first part of this paper show that almost a third of the female as well as male students physically assaulted a dating partner in the 12 month study period, and that the most frequent pattern was mutuality in violence, i.e. both were violent, followed by "female-only" violence. Violence by only the male partner was the least frequent pattern according to both male and female participants[/FONT]​

    So how come it is still so easy to think that DV is what men do? Why is the treatment based around shaming men, with no "treatment" for women? Certain interest groups hijack issues and make them their own. So not always a case by case issue.

    A thousand years you say Man B. I doubt we'll have to wait that long. :tongue:
     
  15. dolfette

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    obviously my lot has improved.
    but it's still a long way from the ovariannervana that a few guys think it is.

    like the pill...
    double edged sword if ever there was one.
    yay at having control over fertility.
    boo at the onus, in ltr, being on the woman to deal with it.
    yes, condoms are a pain...but the pill kills my sex drive, changes my moods and ability to cope, makes me put on weight AND increases the risk of dvt, cancer, etc.

    yes, i'm lucky not to be sold by my father to my husband or denied the right to vote.
    but the average man now has far more rights & support too.
    we all have lots to whine about and lots we should be bloody happy about.
     
  16. Drifterwood

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    You see, it works. Who would want to fuck you in that condition.

    :biggrin1: I imagine that that is the most dangerous joke I have made. Only for you Dolfie.

    Seriously, you are right, I think that the pill is not a great contraceptive.

    Can you give me an example of the extra support for men?
     
  17. dolfette

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    there is the general improvement in life...worker's rights, health care, etc.

    plus, as you pointed out, domestic violence towards men is at least acknowledged and public opinion is changing for the better.

    homosexual men are no longer hunted out and imprisoned.

    child sex abuse in either gender is treated with equal sympathy.

    men are allowed to cry, to love openly, to talk about emotions.

    men can and do choose to be the ones to stay at home with the children without the stigma it used to carry.
    paternity leave is an option so that men can bond with their children.
    and they're welcomed into taking part in the births.

    and you still get to change your mind halfway through a pregnancy, fuck off and pretend like it never happened after shagging her sister. lol
    and pee standing up.
    and jack off...i want to be able to just jack!
    and open jars! wtf is it that no matter how many weights i do, how much i work out, i still need to get you bastards to open the pickle jar for me?

    *ahem* yeah...well...:redface:
     
  18. Drifterwood

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    I think Manisters that my problem with this is that it doesn't contain the word can be or might be, until you say "in the eyes of many", but then you revert to "is seen as a failure".

    I don't think that we should accept a single view of the trials and tribulations of womanhood anymore. The problem with a romanticised feminist agenda is that it does not address: -

    The lazy women
    The bitch women
    The dishonest women
    The women who abuse their partners, physically, mentally, socially and financially
    The women who abuse their children physically mentally and emotionally
    The women who are emotionally unstable and limpit onto others
    etc etc etc

    In fact it gives these women somewhere to hide because

    All women are wonderful
    All men are bastards
    All men are violent
    All men are rapists.

    Well, we have moved away from believeing this haven't we? so let's also move away from all mummies are great.

    Is dinner ready yet? :rolleyes:
     
  19. dolfette

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    that's not true feminism.
    those are just the feminazis who give feminism a bad name.
    'all sex is rape' isn't feminism. it's sexist drivel spouted by the mentally unstable.

    people are people and you get arseholes, doormats and sweethearts in every gender.
     
  20. B_Bonky

    B_Bonky New Member

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    *LIVING* is a raw deal. So much more pleasant never having to worry about it.

    Just figuring this out eh? :D

    Yeah, my biggest hint is to NOT have kids. They are rewarding but are almost never worth the time/effort/$$$ unless you REALLY like kids. And if you're not going to have kids, there's really very little sense in getting married, either.

    You will not fall into the main pitfalls of life if you 1) stay unmarried and 2) don't have kids.

    Cut back on your hours at work, relax more, read some Schopenhauer or something.. dial down on the number of toys/gadgets you own. THAT will make for a "happy" life, if one can be had.
     
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