Winners and losers in the sexual politics merrygoround.

[Drifterwood]

that's not true feminism.
those are just the feminazis who give feminism a bad name.
'all sex is rape' isn't feminism. it's sexist drivel spouted by the mentally unstable.

people are people and you get arseholes, doormats and sweethearts in every gender.

This is what I am saying.

let me ask. Reading back though Manly's post, who is making the judgments on women here? IME, many of these are peer group pressures; not men, but the criticism and blame of men is still implicit. We may have moved forward to a degree when seeing people as independent individuals within a gender context, but the criticism of men as a group still lingers IMO.

 

[dolfette]

This is what I am saying.

let me ask. Reading back though Manly's post, who is making the judgments on women here? IME, many of these are peer group pressures; not men, but the criticism and blame of men is still implicit. We may have moved forward to a degree when seeing people as independent individuals within a gender context, but the criticism of men as a group still lingers IMO.

i wouldn't say that.

internet bickering reflects life.
when guys fall out they're idiots, arseholes and losers.
when guys fall out with women, they aren't bitches & idiots & losers, they're sluts, slags and whores...and ugly/fat ones at that.

 

[Drifterwood]

i wouldn't say that.

internet bickering reflects life.
when guys fall out they're idiots, arseholes and losers.
when guys fall out with women, they aren't bitches & idiots & losers, they're sluts, slags and whores...and ugly/fat ones at that.

I fell out with Bette because she was racist. The fat whore

I wouldn't get too concerned about playground behaviour. When insulting, people look to cause hurt rather than releasing incisive truth.

 

[dolfette]

I fell out with Bette because she was racist. The fat whore

I wouldn't get too concerned about playground behaviour. When insulting, people look to cause hurt rather than releasing incisive truth.

but it still reflects what they think is hurtful...that they think being sexually liberated is dirty unless you're being liberated with them.

we should be ashamed of being sexual.

there was a thread here recently.
a guy who was in love with a girl who had been shagging around the bad boys.
the reasons people gave for not getting together weren't all the 'you don't want another man's kid', there were lots of, 'they don't change. she'll be wanting to shag around the bad boys again', 'it's not fair to expect him to settle down with her when she's had more experience than him'.

 

[Drifterwood]

You'll find these views coming from women as much as from men. I think that it is at least as much a cultural thing as a gender thing, and I don't think it's a case of some women signing up to a patriarchal system of repression.

You could also quote me and many others saying that we don't really want sexually inexperienced partners.

 

[Duplicity]

Hi there,
I've been lurking here for a little while and I couldn't help but feel that Drifterwood seems to be a little bitter and resentful with his opening post.

Perhaps he could could explain where his feels stem from and what prompted him to make a thread about it so we could gain a better perspective and give him replies that would be in context.

Thx.

 

[Drifterwood]

Perhaps he could could explain where his feels stem from and what prompted him to make a thread about it so we could gain a better perspective and give him replies that would be in context.

Thx.

Fair enough.

I was actually reading Dolfie's thread in the relationships section, Dear Fuckers. I was thinking what if a new couple sat down and each wrote ten things that they liked sexually, then showed each other. I was thinking that maybe they would have three in common, then there might be four that they were initially willing to compromise on and three that were out of the question, even though some of these might be on the other person's high priority.

It's a bit depressing, but I have certainly seen it. People start off OK, then they miss the things that they are not gettting, then they are less inclined to compromise, so they end up with a very narrow field of sexual activity and that soon becomes routine and then it grinds to a halt.

I think that I am one of the first generation to have lived their adult life in a post feminist culture. So I am interested in these things with reference to sexual politics and the wider human experience. I also wonder whether when you concentrate on one thing, you run the risk of overlooking other issues, or if you concentrate on one side you go full circle in discriminating against the other.

I am not sure that there are a whole lot of genuinely happy men. And if they (or women) are happy, it has fuck all to do with our redefined culture, as Man B pointed out in her first post. We should have equality within sexual politics, but do we and is making any real difference?

These are the issues for me.

 

[dolfette]

how is it worse for men if both parties have limits?

you don't, with a new lover, lay in bed and talk about your fantasies?

'hard limits' actually, lol, in bdsm relationships couples often do just that.
from what i'm told it really works.
it's common practice, due to the edgier natre of the acts.
hard limits, and soft limits {the 'i don't like the sound of that but i'm willing to give it a try' stuff}

however you tackle it, NOBODY should have to have sex through gritted teeth and wishing it was over.

 

[Drifterwood]

how is it worse for men if both parties have limits?

What are you talking about?

 

[dolfette]

What are you talking about?

you were talkin about my thread.

or are you saying only women have sex acts they are unwilling to perform?
how else would one gender be getting the raw deal?

 

[javyn]

We men I think are losers most of the time, but only because we allow ourselves to be. In the end, if we realize it, we can still have the upper hand because its' much easier for a man to just walk away from a bad relationship than a woman. IMO which is why women push so hard to get married so early on.

These days, ESPECIALLY the new generation in their 20s are much different, than even my generation (I'm 31). Guys this age just REFUSE to settle down by in large and get married. They see it as nothing more than castration and a way for the state (and their wives if they get divorced, of which there is a 50% chance) to essentially, jack them of all they are worth.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, these guys don't really care about finishing college, moving out of their parents house, or anything but partying. But it is what it is, and IMO not a surprising reaction. When every way you look regarding relationships, looks like it's going to screw you, then I guess why not devote your life to hedonism?

I'm not trying to lay any blanket statements here, I fully realize not all women are selfish looking to grab what money they can from their so called mate in a courtroom, I'm sure not even most women are like that.

But, it's a numbers game. 50% of marriages end in divorce, and sorry, there is NO way for a man to tell if his woman will be like that until you get to that point, just like there is no way for a woman to tell if her new spouse is going to end up being abusive until it's already too late. It's a numbers game, and more and more men each day are simply refusing to play.

edit: BTW I think in the long run, men will benefit from equality of the sexes the most though. It's still going to be a "man's world", the only difference is, equality will knock women down off the pedastals that many men have placed them on, and they will be in the trough fighting it out with all the other men in the worlds of love and business on equal footing. Seems to me though, being on equal footing with men doesn't bring you up the ladder, but knocks you down the ladder. Welcome to no holds barred, take and give no quarter competition, and "I'm just a woman" will no longer be an acceptable excuse for failure or incompetence, just like getting pregnant will likely no longer be an excuse to take leave off work, after all, it was the woman's choice to get pregnant, not the companies, so why should they be responsible for that?, etc etc and so on and so forth.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

"I'm just a woman" will no longer be an acceptable excuse for failure or incompetence

But it never was.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I dont even know what to say to this thread.

I got married at 18. Some would say i pushed my man into marrying me so i could take 50% of what he had later. OMG, then we had a daughter, i should only be so proud to get another foot in the door of later taking him for every penny he is worth.

Then, as a woman, i am somehow elevating myself to a level that is far beyond my abilities and expect the entire world to give me a cookie for having a vagina- even if im worthless.

No dears, im not a money sucking, happy to inprison my man, baby factory who supports herself at the same time so she can remind her man what a worthless piece of shit he is for not making more than me.

What I AM is a wife, a damn good one, and a mother. Im someones daughter and i try to make them all proud of me. I am a business owner and i like to be viewed as accomplished and successful by my clients. But i'll never be too successful to forget to hand my husband a beer when he gets home from his stressful day or insist on sex because while he's so damn tired he benefits from the release.

I am a human being that tries to better her world and the worlds of those around her, if people married or not would just try to do this a little more there would be a helluva lot less angst between the genders. Marriages would not be the reputation they are. Women wouldnt have the reputation they have, nor men.

While im independent, im also needy of my husband. He provides me with lovely things that i couldnt conjur up on my own. He and my daughter give me something worth trying for.

And fucking excuse me if being a woman and a mother makes me happy to get let on the lifeboat first!

You guys are confusing when you want a non-traditional woman and then you want her to treat you well when you wouldnt dream of getting married to her. You probably sleep with your wallet under your pillow.

 

[javyn]

No one has accused you of anything, and my post specifically said I didn't think all, or even most women are like that.

Also, posting your anecdotal story and experience really does nothing concerning a widespread trend in place.

How should one respond to this? "Good for you, want a cookie for not being a horrible person?". or "Good for you, since you are not like that, that must mean all women aren't?". Bull.

I love how people will misread, misunderstand, and try to buck statistics with weak anecdotal evidence, if it can even be called 'evidence'.

In short, don't pull that "Joe The Plumber" shit that McCain tried during his election.

I don't beat or abuse my gf, so just because I don't, doesn't mean all men are as cool as me. Get it?

You'd do well to base any arguments on logic and reason, rather than emotionally misleading personal anecdotes. Your specific situation means little in the grand scheme of things. Give me trends, stats, or figures.

I dont even know what to say to this thread.

I got married at 18. Some would say i pushed my man into marrying me so i could take 50% of what he had later. OMG, then we had a daughter, i should only be so proud to get another foot in the door of later taking him for every penny he is worth.

Then, as a woman, i am somehow elevating myself to a level that is far beyond my abilities and expect the entire world to give me a cookie for having a vagina- even if im worthless.

No dears, im not a money sucking, happy to inprison my man, baby factory who supports herself at the same time so she can remind her man what a worthless piece of shit he is for not making more than me.

What I AM is a wife, a damn good one, and a mother. Im someones daughter and i try to make them all proud of me. I am a business owner and i like to be viewed as accomplished and successful by my clients. But i'll never be too successful to forget to hand my husband a beer when he gets home from his stressful day or insist on sex because while he's so damn tired he benefits from the release.

I am a human being that tries to better her world and the worlds of those around her, if people married or not would just try to do this a little more there would be a helluva lot less angst between the genders. Marriages would not be the reputation they are. Women wouldnt have the reputation they have, nor men.

While im independent, im also needy of my husband. He provides me with lovely things that i couldnt conjur up on my own. He and my daughter give me something worth trying for.

And fucking excuse me if being a woman and a mother makes me happy to get let on the lifeboat first!

You guys are confusing when you want a non-traditional woman and then you want her to treat you well when you wouldnt dream of getting married to her. You probably sleep with your wallet under your pillow.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

My experience with marriage is my life, many of your experience with marriage is lockerroom bitching about some dudes ex-wife he shouldnt have married and had 4 babies with in the first place.

Boo hoo, everyone has a choice to pick the person that they want to settle down with. I chose not to pick an asshole, he chose not to pick a fertile money grubber.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

Javyn, you can take my life and call it completely useless in this conversation. But i know for a fact others will find it comforting after reading many of you man-whiners doom and gloom about women. We are always knocking heads because i am constantly defending myself in your presence. You know you post very contriversial things, obviously have some deep seated issues with women (by going back in your post history) and then get all "well fuck you!" in response to whatever i say.

You are paradoxical and honestly try so damn hard to appear not to be pussywhipped. Like way over the top.

 

[javyn]

I'm not boo hooing, again, you misread or misunderstand. My last paragraph said I think men will end up having the upper hand in all this. Why would I boo hoo? Everyone has a choice, but it's not clear whether that choice was a good one or bad one until the knot has already been tied in most cases. Again I said that in my earlier post, and again you either misread, or glossed over it.

Many women marry seemingly sweet men only to turn into abusive monsters once they are married. Does that warrant a "boo hoo"? Is it the woman's fault for picking the man? I say no, no moreso than it is the man's fault for inadvertently picking a gold digging woman.

My whole point in all of this is you never know until it's too late! And because of that fact, a VERY large percentage of men in their 20s are flat out rejecting marriage.

Also, note that my experiences with marriage are not lockerroom bitching, whatever that means. I have ZERO experience with marriage, and whatever experience I'd personally have is irrelevant since I'm going by statistics of society as a whole, in which my personal experience means literally next to nothing.

Again, your experience, your life doesn't represent any group at large, just as Joe The Plumber didn't represent any group either. Just weak, intellectually dishonest personal anecdotes trying to be passed off as some sort of valid statistical trend.

Anyway, google up what I just said. This trend of men rejecting marriage (and responsibility as a whole) has gotten so big and gained such steam it actually has a name associated with it, "Peter Pan Syndrome".

And sorry, my personal beliefs, experiences, etc. contributed nothing to this syndrome, so no need to get into a heated state of overreaction like I was the cause of all this. I merely pointed it out.

 

[javyn]

Personal experiences mean absolutely nothing in scientific and statistical study, sorry, and neither does the comfort level of people reading posts have to do with the way things really are at large in society.

Also, for the third time (I think you may need reading comprehension classes), I'm not whining about this, as it should be obvious in my original reply that men in fact will have it better than women in the long term because of these changes going on in society.

Javyn, you can take my life and call it completely useless in this conversation. But i know for a fact others will find it comforting after reading many of you man-whiners doom and gloom about women. We are always knocking heads because i am constantly defending myself in your presence. You know you post very contriversial things, obviously have some deep seated issues with women (by going back in your post history) and then get all "well fuck you!" in response to whatever i say.

You are paradoxical and honestly try so damn hard to appear not to be pussywhipped. Like way over the top.

 

[Tattooed Goddess]

I'm not boo hooing, again, you misread or misunderstand. My last paragraph said I think men will end up having the upper hand in all this. Why would I boo hoo? Everyone has a choice, but it's not clear whether that choice was a good one or bad one until the knot has already been tied in most cases. Again I said that in my earlier post, and again you either misread, or glossed over it.

Many women marry seemingly sweet men only to turn into abusive monsters once they are married. Does that warrant a "boo hoo"? Is it the woman's fault for picking the man? I say no, no moreso than it is the man's fault for inadvertently picking a gold digging woman.

My whole point in all of this is you never know until it's too late! And because of that fact, a VERY large percentage of men in their 20s are flat out rejecting marriage.

Also, note that my experiences with marriage are not lockerroom bitching, whatever that means. I have ZERO experience with marriage, and whatever experience I'd personally have is irrelevant since I'm going by statistics of society as a whole, in which my personal experience means literally next to nothing.

Again, your experience, your life doesn't represent any group at large, just as Joe The Plumber didn't represent any group either. Just weak, intellectually dishonest personal anecdotes trying to be passed off as some sort of valid statistical trend.

Anyway, google up what I just said. This trend of men rejecting marriage (and responsibility as a whole) has gotten so big and gained such steam it actually has a name associated with it, "Peter Pan Syndrome".

And sorry, my personal beliefs, experiences, etc. contributed nothing to this syndrome, so no need to get into a heated state of overreaction like I was the cause of all this. I merely pointed it out.

Intellectually dishonest? Further explain yourself,

And i do blame most men and women for their fucked up lives and fucking up the lives of their kids. Very few couples communicate about what they want for dinner let alone what they want out of life and compare notes to see if there is one ounce of compatibility.

What happens in a lot of cases is there are HUGE red flags in the dating part of their relationship that they totally ignored. Those flags were planted like seeds that eventually grew into huge trees that now fucked up the driveway concrete.

I am not living anywhere else but reality. Few of these miserably married people ever talked about the important things about the future. Instead of just picking a different person with their same goals in mind- they try to change the man into being that perfect spouse and then he decides to contribute his sperm and bank account to a total bitch. It's something that often can be prevented if they would step out of Never Never Land.

 

[javyn]

I say intellectually dishonest because you are trying to insert some personal experience as a valid basis for argument.

Also, I can't fault someone for not being perceptive (or experienced) enough to not pick up these red flags no more than I can blame someone for being whatever color or sexuality they are, or intelligence level.

Marriage is a romantic concept of course, and most people think they can buck the trend and make theirs work. But once you put the romantic ideals we've had instilled in us since birth regarding this, and look at the numbers, which is really all we have to go by (not anecdotal experience from another or another couple since no two people are alike in this world), then you'd see the odds are pretty poor at success.

Perhaps an analogy is in order to make this a little more clear. Knowing the piss poor odds at hitting a jackpot on a slot machine in Vegas, would you say continually throwing money into it is a wise decision? Not based on any emotional, sense of love, etc etc, but purely going by the numbers?