Wishing for a vaccination against stupidity.

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Ethyl, Feb 24, 2007.

  1. Ethyl

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    I won't hold my breath. Why would you try to prevent your daughters from being vaccinated against a virus that could cause cancer? Someone please explain this to me because I must be missing something.

    Texas families seek to block governor's order
     
  2. kamikazee_club

    kamikazee_club New Member

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    I've seen this kind of thing before, last time it was on the grounds that it could encourage promiscuity and/or underrage sex. The same argument is used by those who would deny condoms to teenagers and sterile needles to addicts because it somehow condones behaviour they see as immoral, usually on quasi-religious grounds. To me it just seems to make sense that if any or all of the above reduce risk, surely that's a good thing. The morality or otherwise is another argument.

    I do believe it's our right to refuse treatment we may not want, for an illness we may never suffer (or if they wish for one we currenly suffer from) but that must be an informed and personal choice. I don't believe the state has any right to impose such treatments. However well meaning it's a slippery slope, and on those grounds alone I actually agree with the family that their daughter should not be forced to be vaccinated.

    People are, sometimes rightly, afraid of enforced vaccinations etc, remember the MMR scares of recent years? a heavy handed approach by Government is not going to help anyone.
     
  3. Ethyl

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    The Humanpapilloma virus is not a scare. Over 50% of men carry the virus but it doesn't affect them. It's passed on to women and they're the ones who suffer from genital warts or cervical cancer. When an estimated 50-80% of women carry the virus, i'd say that's cause for concern. No one thinks twice about getting their kids vaccinated for polio and measles. This is a way to prevent thousands of unnecessary deaths every year.
     
  4. dannymawg

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    The HPV virus (an old school STD in the same league as herpes or hepatitis) permeates the population far wider and deeper than most any other STI/STD. Most folks who have any one of its strains never experience any symptoms, are never tested for it unless by request or if symptoms appear, and yet can pass the virus on easily through even the most casual sexual contact.

    I understand fully the logic of "I've taught my kid not to have sex - why then should I have her vaccinated", and I imagine some compromise will be reached between mandatory and willful vaccination, after the liberal/conservative component of the argument dies down. I'm with kamikazee on the slippery slope aspect, in that families shouldn't be forced - but in light of the above HPV facts, at the very least there should be as much education about HPV as there is on HIV.

    HPV wiki
     
  5. Hatched69

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    It all goes back to the widely abused "freedom of choice". Wonder how people like that would get along in society if the smallpox/polio shots mandatory in the 50's and 60's were brought back....:confused:
    I would be outraged if one of my children became ill from one of the other children who refused the shots because of one reason or another. :mad: People need to realize that there are some things that need to happen in order to keep America healthy, not just be so narrow-minded as to disregard the health of the community in which they live. Seems like everyone is concerned only for themselves and not seeing the big picture or looking to the future years ahead when they inadvertently infect other people because of stubbornness or ignorance.
     
  6. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    The suit is trying to block a political action. The story is a bit vague on the details. But politics is not generally a good venue for medical decisions. If I might delve into ancient history, the legislature which wanted to require everyone to be vaccinated against sickle cell anemia comes to mind. There was (and is) of course no such vaccine.

    Quite aside from politics, I had to review my own opinions of modern medical practices after a major hospital came perilously close to killing me. Twice. I've reluctantly had to conclude that an "M.D." after someone's name doesn't mean that he knows what he's talking about. (But it's not as dire a sign as "Congressman" or "Governor", which is damn near proof that he doesn't know what he's talking about.)

    On the other hand, most vaccination programs in America have been satisfactorily successful.
     
  7. Principessa

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    This was on the Today show last week and has been a major source of concern for myself and other women on the gyncancer board for months.

    These puritanical morons are afraid that if their daughters receive the vaccine it will be a license for them to have sex. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. It is yet another ridiculous knee-jerk reaction by the radical right.

    njqt466



     
  8. SpoiledPrincess

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    Danny - whilst understanding that 'I've taught my kids not to have sex, why should they need a vaccination' are you going to presume your kids will never have sex? Kids will have sex when they want to and preventing them having access to condoms, and knowledge will only make them more curious about sex and in the position where they will see it as something automatically desirable because their parents find it undesirable. We can't control what our kids do 24/7 once they're past a certain age so our job then is to make them as safe as we reasonably can - give them informed knowledge, let them have any vaccinations that can protect them from anything undesirable. We can't keep them children forever and especially in the world as it is today they grow up far more quickly than we'd like.
     
  9. madame_zora

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    My concern with this particular vaccine is that it is the drug company who developed it that is pushing for it to be mandatory. That's cause for concern. I don't know if they've studied any long term side effects either, and once more this is something the government is looking to mandate, but not fund. The shots are expensive, and there is a series- not just one. What is to be done about the uninsured families who simply cannot afford it?

    Our government should not be able to pass an unfunded mandate, but IF the vaccine has been tested and met with satisfactory results on side effects, then it should be available. I am uneasy about forcing it though until it is made clearer about testing and money. I must say I'm thrilled stupid that something is finally being done about this- cervical cancer, breast cancer- I don't know if women are more vulnerable to cancers or if we just don't put much into research or developing cures for the ones that only affect women.

    FDA Panel Endorses Cervical Cancer Vaccine
     
  10. dolf250

    dolf250 New Member

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    This is the same government that injected it's own citizens to find out about cancer, released radioactive substances to learn about radiation (from Us Government Sued For Radiation) “his suit is brought against the United States of America and other Defendants, including Dupont, General Electric, Westinghouse, Rockwell International, the University of Washington and Battelle Pacific Northwest Laboratory...These violations all arise out of the Government's and other Defendant's surreptitious and wrongful radiological experimentation on the Native Americans...”
    “The United States has admitted in recently declassified documents that these releases occurred in such massive doses as to permanently injure and impair the health of the Native Americans ingesting foods and liquids contaminated with hazardous doses of radiation from Hanford, with possible impact to future generations. These experimental releases were deliberately orchestrated by the Government and other Defendants to monitor the effect of high doses of radiation”

    From a book “the plutonium files”
    “ From the early 1940's into the 60's, the armed forces, the Atomic Energy Commission and collaborating universities and hospitals administered nuclear experiments to thousands of unsuspecting or poorly informed Americans -- some of them unharmed, others badly damaged and few helped. These experiments included 18 subjects injected with traces of plutonium and several hundred pregnant women given drinks of radioactive iron at a university clinic.”

    There are hundreds of other cases supported by hard data and where the government finally 'fessed up. Where they admitted to doing harm- sometimes through immunization shots.

    Oh, but that was the 60's and there was a cold war going on...
    Well, there is evidence to support the idea that AIDs was introduced to the homosexual population through experimental Hep B vaccinations for gay men originally in Manhattan.. It is interesting to google it to see what comes up. Oh, and by the way, the dates are the 70's and early 80's for those.

    “On May 11, 1987, The London Times carried a cover story connecting the World Health Organizations' African small pox vaccine programs with the outbreak of AIDS in Central Africa Robert Gallo agreed that the World Health Organization vaccine program, which inoculated millions of blacks, could have awakened the "dormant" AIDS virus. This extremely important story was killed in the United States, and the story never appeared on television or in any major newspaper.”

    Anyhow, it is hard to trust a government who has this record with having the authority to force anybody to get injected with anything- let alone our children.

    For the record; if I had a daughter I would wait until she was around 15 (depending on how she matured) and capable of making her own decision; even then I would encourage her to get it. Hopefully if somebody feels that they are mature enough to have sex then they are mature enough to take part in decisions that will affect their health.
     
  11. dannymawg

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    Actually, I'm in agreement with you - it's just that I have brothers with daughters, and watch them work through similar issues, and can understand how a government mandate can/would intrude on family communication, on such a sensitive topic, no less.

    Where did I read that mandates/laws/rules are like morals - they do the thinking for you? Or am I making that up? Wait I got it backwards :tongue:

    Isn't that a large facet of any man-made drug? Profitability? I know as a guy, I'm inundated with ads for hair-loss and boner drugs, but I refuse to make any of those camps any richer. Maybe the drug company went into development taking a chance that the volatility of the topic might tip FDA/insurance scales in their favor.
    Werd - and I dunno either.
     
  12. monsternmypant

    monsternmypant New Member

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    Two comments...

    HPV is a source of concern for men, as it is the cause of anal warts which can develop into anal cancer. Men who have sex with men should be getting pap smears, just as women do, to catch HPV and keep watch for adverse development so they can be treated early. Two of my Gay elders here from whom I have learned a lot have both lost partners to anal cancer that went unchecked.

    Regarding the conspiracy theory bullshit being spouted.... This is Earth calling! Continuing to spew history framed as The Man vs The People perpetuates many health disparities that linger in the U.S. because certain groups distrust government-sponsored medical interventions. The Tuskeegee Experiment was patently evil and foisted on men of color deliberately, but it doesn't follow that any subsequent health outreach to men of color is a covert ploy to infect them and watch them die to "increase scientific understanding." Yet, there are people who use Tuskeegee to scare people of color, particularly people of African descent, away from government-sponsored studies and intervention. And, agreed, that some inept and diabolical people conspired to expose Americans to radiation in government-funded studies, but that ha NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER to requiring a well-tested vaccine to prevent a preventable disease.

    Oh... and don't even bring up the National Vaccine Information Center and their hocus-pocus version of sciene. If they merge with AIDS denialists, we're done as a civilization! While I believe in informed consent and empathize with people who suffer from adverse events, if I followed the NVIC "logic" I would stay at home and never come out because of the risk of being hit by motor vehicle which is especially high in D.C. with diplomats and METROBUS drivers taking out pedestrians on a regular basis.
     
  13. dags

    dags New Member

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    I am all for any new drugs that will truly help women avoid any type of cancer. My only concern is how fast drugs now days get pushed through the whole FDA process. The FDA doesn't have the best record in my opinion and you should look out for yourself. Check this out A Healthy Baby Girl -- DES Timeline
    I only recently found out about Diethylstilbestrol or DES, my mom just brought it up in a conversation one day innocently my Grandma took it while pregnant with her. It explains allot, now that I know. My mom had extra parts, female parts, two uterus's, she has multiple allergies, she's had several miscarriages and problems with pregnancy. She also was used a Guinea pig by the Doctor that was testing, developing the amniocenteses test we have today. According to her he was drawing fluid, way more than is known to be safe today. But she was young, and didn't know. So not to get too far off topic, but I would be careful and be your own common sense judge of what you take and put in to your body. Drug companies just want to push push push these days, its all about money.
    Many people would be suprised to find out if they ask older relatives who took DES. They marketed it as a "vitamin". Here is the homepage with some of the original advertising of the time A Healthy Baby Girl -- Main Page
    All women should read this.
    Here is just a paragraph from the page: DES was not only proven to be completely ineffective in preventing miscarriage but for more than thirty years, pharmaceutical companies sold DES to millions of pregnant women knowing that the drug was toxic and carcinogenic. Only in 1971, when doctors discovered the link between DES and vaginal cancer in some young women exposed in utero, was the drug taken off the U.S. market for use during pregnancy. It continued to be sold overseas. Today there is no definitive estimate of how many millions of mothers and children have been exposed to DES worldwide.
     
  14. viking1

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    Exactly! While there may well be some true medical safety concerns with a vaccine. The real reason is indeed just what you have said. So many of these radical religious fundamentalists won't let their kids get ANY of the vaccines that are now standard in this country.
     
  15. D_Maurice Mountlilly

    D_Maurice Mountlilly Account Disabled

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    call me a conspircy dude but,i think the medical/health insurance field is the biggest rackett going(and one of the longest)
    if you think about t if all the major diseases are cured how much money would be lost through out the major medical conglomerates?
    nurses,doctors,higher up executives,and more employed by the field..that's alot of money lost and we all know who fund alot of our state elected polotitans...so call me crazy but that's how i feel..
     
  16. dolf250

    dolf250 New Member

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    One was a conspiracy theory. The knowing and willing infection of homosexual men with AIDs. The others the government denied for decades but now admits to, and they have, in many cases, been sucessfully sued. They are not theories. Despite this, I stated that I would try to persuade somebody to get the shot- I was simply saying that the past does not inspire trust in the present or future and I can understand why somebody would want to opt out of a program where you allow them to inject you or your loved ones.

    Read the remarks of Senatory John Glenn when introducing bill S.193 to congress. From your own historical records the opening paragraph started: (link:John Glenn's Introductory Remarks on the Human Research Subject Protection Act)
    “Madam President, if I approached any
    Senator here and I said, `You did not know it, but the
    last time they went to the doctor or went to the hospital,
    your wife or your husband or
    your daughter or your
    son became the subject of a medical experiment that they were
    not even told about. They were given medicine,
    they were given pills, they were given radiation, they were
    given something and were not even told about this,
    were not even informed about it, yet they are under some
    experimental research that might possibly do them
    harm--maybe some good will come out of it, but maybe
    it will do them harm also--but they do not know
    about it,' people would laugh at that and say that is ridiculous.
    That cannot possibly happen in this country.
    Yet, that very situation is what this piece of
    legislation is supposed to address.”


    It was never passed and died never having become law. I am not saying that it is a conspiracy- but it would seem that people in the U.S. Should have taken notice that their representatives did not pass a law that would require that the hospital or a doctor tell you before experimenting on you. You can argue that good laws often die, but why has it not been reintroduced?
     
  17. D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah

    D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah Account Disabled

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    Possibly the easiest answer it to make the injection non-compulsory .. Wait until the girls are at the legal age of concent (16?) and allow them to make the choice themselves. Parents are to bias in the fact that many WONT believe their baby daughter has grown up and could be having sex behind their back.

    I say provide each girl and family with the approperiate info about the drug including positive and negative and go from there. But i mayself would be happy to have any daughter injected and me myself if it could even give us a 1% chance of avoiding cancer and disease
     
  18. madame_zora

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    Yes, and those are legitimate concerns. See how quickly you get called a tin-foil hat wearer though, because if you are right, then people will have to *gasp* ch-ch-ch-ange. Oooh, scary. Easier to just say chant "everything's all right".
     
  19. JustAsking

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    I totally agree with the seriousness of the HPV concern and the need for vaccinating girls at an age before they are susceptible. This is no different than vaccinating for measels or mumps, where we do not ask permission of the child nor do we wait until they are old enough to make the decision themselves.

    On the other hand its always a difficult tradeoff when you ask the government to correct behavior by making something illegal or making something manditory. There are precedents for it to which most of us would agree, such as meat inspection, boards of health inspection for restaurants, and vaccinations for highly communicable diseases in schoolchildren before they attend school. I don't see much difference here, with HPV.

    The one thing I totally object to is religious groups imposing their twisted sense of morality on the rest of the public through affecting public policy. The idea that an HPV vaccination should be withheld because it encourages or endorses sex is so twisted and bizarre that if it weren't absolutely cruel and deadly, it would be funny.

    What kind of nasty God would be happier if we place girls at risk for cancer because we want to maintain the illusion that girls wait for marriage to have sex. What is wrong with these people. This sort of thing goes way beyond the HPV problem. The $billiions the US has sent worldwide to fight aids has all been mostly inneffective because it has been tied to only those programs that are abstinence based.

    AIDS Programs that advocate handing out condoms and giving sex education to African village girls and boys disqualifies a program for US aid. How many milliions of people do you think have died because of this? How much blood is on the hands of the US government and the religious right? The answer is that the US government and the religious right is awash in it.

    There is no reason whatsoever that anyone who thinks this is abhorent has to respect a religious group with an agenda like that. It's important that everyone do whatever they can to point out the downright nastiniess and even deadliness of this kind of thinking. It should be done publicly and loudly, and with no regard to their religiousity.

    Don't even stop to worry about collateral damage to mainstream denominations if your criticism is indiscriminate. They can take care of themselves, and furthermore, they need to be woken up and asked to take some responsibility.
     
  20. Ethyl

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