With Europe falling apart financially....

Discussion in 'Politics' started by conntom, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. conntom

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    Can we all now admit the USA should NOT be following in their foot steps in any way.

    National health care being a prime example....

    Even the Dems should be able to see this now.

    Oh no that's right...our socialists will be smarter than their socialists and our socialists will find a way to never ever run out of other people's money.
     
  2. maxcok

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    Simple mind yields simplistic analysis and illogical conclusion.
     
    #2 maxcok, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  3. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Oy vey, here we go again. :rolleyes:
    Someone else take this one. These capitalist vs. socialist arguments bore the shit out of me.
     
  4. maxcok

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    Or we could just pass.
     
  5. B_New End

    B_New End New Member

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    It's too late, we already bailed out the banks. It would be massively unfair to give to the wealthy but not the masses.
     
  6. sargon20

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    And leaving out the huge piece about the Europeans getting suckered into buying the same weapons of mass destruction that sank the US financial sector.

    Nothing to see here folks. Just move on.

    Especially when they just fucking make up the definition of socialism.
     
  7. Joll

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    It's more a problem to do with the single currency and how it prevented booming countries from clamping down properly (raising interest rates), and not allowing devauation etc,...plus greed/overspend. Also, the UK/US model was adopted in the worst cases which was among the causes (Spain/Ireland).

    Not particularly to do with any socialist policies, I wouldn't have thought? The EU does go too far in welfare - as the UK has done lately...but the US seems too far the other way; so you could still do with a drift to the left in some ways. :p

    So no...you can't draw that conclusion. ;)
     
    #7 Joll, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2010
  8. Joll

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    ^^Devaluation* Oops.
     
  9. B_nyvin

    B_nyvin New Member

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    The primary reason Greece/Ireland/Portugal are even getting so much attention is because the greater majority of their debts are in the hands of foreign creditors...this means the nation, in the form of banks usually, owes other countries money. Italy, by contrast, has a large national debt, but it's creditors are domestic mostly and there isn't as big of fear of contagion to other countries/businesses.

    This makes it scary to big businesses around the world because if they default it would cause economic problems in creditor nations. Most of the media "horror stories" you hear about involve countries with high foreign investment and low amount of domestic creditors. Iceland, Greece, Portugal, Dubai, and to a lesser extent Ireland and Spain all follow this.

    This...in turn...has the effect of scaring investers of moving their capital out of those nations and you get a "run on the nation" effect similar to a "run on the bank".....before all the bailouts and stuff you saw a large amount of outflow of capital from the nations which just made the situation worse for them (higher deficits, harder borrowing, etc).

    edit- obviously the "bigger picture" is more complicated, but that gives the overall of what's happening.
     
    #9 B_nyvin, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  10. alx

    alx
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    Europe won't fall apart financially, the EU will if things carry on like they have. Everything is wrong with the EU.
     
  11. Joll

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    Ahh, didn't realise this. :smile: Explains why they haven't come under as much pressure as Ireland, etc - despite having a national debt second only to Greece in terms of percentage GDP.

    Is this also why Japan seems to survive despite debt of 225% of GDP?
     
  12. cocktaste

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    Thanks for outing yourself as one of the people who have brought America's collective IQ down into the gutter.:rolleyes:

    It's amazing how Capitalism has sent America into full blown Fascism, and the American people are still fighting to keep that system. haha. Some things never change. Don't try cutting in line when the soup kitchens start opening up for the Middle and Working class!
     
    #12 cocktaste, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  13. Jason

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    I guess I sort of agree. I think the euro and the EU are both heading for a fall. If the mess is managed badly then it will in fact be Europe that falls apart. But if it is well managed then there is economic strength in Europe.

    The big concern is whether the crisis is being well handled. So far there is not enough information to make a decision. Whether you are handling it properly (buying time) or badly (defending the ideology of the EU at all costs) you actually make broadly similar decisions right now. That said I've been concerned at the pain inflicted on Greece to defend and ideology, and the pain that Ireland is beginning to feel.
     
  14. dandelion

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    the problem in question seems to be property speculation. I dont know who followed who, but it has nothing to do with socialism. Trading and buying houses is a capitalist game.
     
  15. Ldnn

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    Nothing to do with socialism unfortunately, you need to delve deeper. I'd suggest not watching Fox. From a fiscal point of view, the benefit Japan has is its currency is linked directly to its own fortunes, whereas Greece, Island, Spain and potentially Italy (the weakest nations with the greatest untenable debt) have to deal with the stronger nations propping up the weaker, Joll's comments list the basics here which are fundamentally correct - you have no central bank control for the Euro on a country-wide basis, only by economic-area, which tends to disallow the weaker nations the typical financial techniques they'd want to use to collect themselves and start to grow against.
     
  16. sargon20

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    It's just too bad we can't gut our Constitution and turn everything over to a board of CEO's from the Fortune 500 to run the country. Then again there is no such thing as 'country'. There is only WalMart, Royal Dutch, Exxon-Mobil, BP and Toyota.

    We could convert all our churches to temples of worship to capitalism. As it is capitalism that has lifted as all out of poverty, despair and hopelessness not religion.
     
  17. Speculator

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    :biggrin1: funny post.


    Socialists have a vested interest in keeping the poor poor so they can advance their socialist manifesto. The last thing they want is a nation that can provide it's own healthcare free from the clutches of the state because then they'd be robbed of the ability to interfere.

    It's testament to the U.S's character that even during the worst economic crisis since 1929 they're looking to small state Teapartyists for solutions. Keep it up!
     
  18. Speculator

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    The one thing socialists and capitalists seem to agree on is that monopoly capitalism is a bad thing, but we disagree over how it should be solved. Capitalists tend to argue that it can be defeated with more capitalism, i.e monopoly positions should be eroded by market forces and competition. Socialists though believe that more monopoly is the solution, so they place their faith in the ultimate monopolist: the state.

    I certainly side with the right with this and on most other issues, the left deny themselves a whole heap of useful information because they load words like "capitalist" with negative connotations, which is why sensible dialogue often becomes impossible.
     
    #18 Speculator, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2010
  19. sargon20

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    I don't really like the terms 'right' and 'left' as it tends to paint a person in a single shade. For the terms of this discussion I used hyperbole to emphasize a certain point of view. The US thrived for a long period without the ideological corners that the press paints and political parties seem to think we are in. Is there a middle anymore? Every issue and how to solve it isn't necessarily 'right' and 'left'.

    I'm pessimistic that voice will ever be heard again. Being in the middle doesn't win elections. It doesn't generate anger needed to generate votes. Karl Rove realized that years ago.
     
  20. Speculator

    Speculator New Member

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    Maybe the terms are less useful in the U.S but i find they're fairly accurate in summing up the divide between political factions here in the UK. The NHS is one of a number of British institutions that isn't up for discussion because it offends left wing sensibilities, MEP Daniel Hannan was heavily criticised for example when spoke out against the NHS on an American news channel.

    All I want is decent quality affordable healthcare when I need it, I don't mind how it's provided. But lefties here insist on government monopolisation of health provision and then attack opponents for "playing politics" when they want to discuss alternatives! As if gov't domination is a natural state of affairs.

    The biggest difference between the left and right is that the former are utterly incapable of recognising their own bias, I've seen this time and again, especially with the BBC.
     
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