Women and equal rights/roles/jobs.....

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Not sure if this should go here or not.

Another thread regarding Gender laws etc made me think to post this and look for opinions.

I am very much for equal rights for all races, genders, religions etc. However, why do rules and standards have to change because of it? That’s not very equal.

While in the Army I served in a unit that does not allow women to even sign up and attempt to qualify, so my experience is a little different. However with other jobs/units/roles for a female to graduate basic training etc the standards are lowered regarding physical training. This also crosses over to other jobs that are traditionally dominated by men (law enforcement etc).

Do women actually think it’s fair to have standards lowered just so they can obtain these jobs that they may really not be qualified for? Now don’t get me wrong, in my experience I have met women that would torch some guys I know in physical fitness in both strength and endurance, I’m not speaking about them.

I’m talking about the 5’1’’ tall female that weighs 105 pounds that could not lift my almost 200 pound ass out of a firefight, or help me with an arrest if the event got physical with a group of very large men before back up shows. And no, there is only so much self defense training the academy offers.

The men that cannot do these jobs flunk out because they cannot meet the standards. By lowering them for females you are putting people in positions that may not be able to handle the job. If you can do the job, great sit next to me and let us get the job done. But I wouldn’t feel comfortable having someone watching my back that I feel I would have to keep an eye on. It’s a possible distraction in a dangerous situation. I don’t fault people for having the ambition to take on tough jobs and careers, however, the standards should not be lowered as much as they are to accommodate them.

 

[B_hardasarokkk]

Nice font !!!!

 

[javyn]

I'm not sure most women really do want 'equal' rights, or perhaps don't know what it means. Equal rights go hand in hand with equal responsibilities and so many women still expect preferential treatment just because they are women.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

 

[TinyPrincess]

I'm not sure most women really do want 'equal' rights

BS, of course we want equal rights...

Do women actually think it’s fair to have standards lowered just so they can obtain these jobs that they may really not be qualified for?

No, standards are supposed to be standards - regardless of sex, race, religion etc.

I’m talking about the 5’1’’ tall female that weighs 105 pounds that could not lift my almost 200 pound ass out of a firefight, or help me with an arrest if the event got physical with a group of very large men before back up shows.

They picked the wrong woman for the job then. Equal right = equal standards = equal pay for equal jobs...

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

I'm not sure most women really do want 'equal' rights, or perhaps don't know what it means. Equal rights go hand in hand with equal responsibilities and so many women still expect preferential treatment just because they are women.

Sorry but you can't have it both ways.

I wouldn't say most women. I speaking to women that try to make changes to a system so they can get certain jobs. I haven't met too many women that want things easier for them because they are women.

BS, of course we want equal rights...

No, standards are supposed to be standards - regardless of sex, race, religion etc.

They picked the wrong woman for the job then. Equal right = equal standards = equal pay for equal jobs...

Well that's the problem TinyP, sometimes the person isn't picked. If the standards are lowered and they pass the standards assigned to their gender, and if everything else is equal you cannot dismiss them without possibly having a discrimination lawsuit against you.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Nice font !!!!

Thanks for your wonderful insight into a serious topic.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

I am sure that you all know that women can't vote in Canada. The 1992 Charlottetown Accord promised to give women the right to vote, but it dissolved due to a lack of agreement among the province's premiers. The 1997 Referendum, which women couldn't take part in, almost gave the vote to women (52% to 48%). Many grassroots suffrage movements have had fizzled out due to lack of interest.

Come to think of it, maybe women shouldn't vote... They are far too hysterical and their boobs will just block the voting screens.

 

[Phil Ayesho]

I think standards should be set and uniform, but only on those jobs where extreme standards apply.
You do not lower the standard for a firefighter to accommodate women because lives are on the line. If the JOB is "carry folks to safety" then that's the job.

However, neither do you RAISE standards artificially to exclude women from applying.
There is no reason a Construction job needs to have standards that reasonably fit and physical women can not meet.


However... the MYTH of equal pay for equal work is utter bullshit.

WOMEN, as a group, DO NOT PERFORM EQUAL WORK.
Pay is not based upon what you did THAT DAY... pay is based upon career investment, stability, and the company's expected return.

All serious examinations of career investment show that women are 10 times more likely to interrupt their careers, turn down promotions, demand paid maternity leave, and then never come back, opt for part time, and avoid jobs that taken them away from their families for extended periods.

Everyone knows some woman who does not fit that generality, sure... TODAY.

But statistically, when you look at women's working lives, in toto, you find that even the most career oriented woman had a 90% chance of not pursuing any given career into their 50s.

What this means is that women want equal pay for LESS career dedication, for Less sacrifice FOR their employer. They further demand maternity benefits such medical care for having children and paid leave during which the company must hold their jobs in reserve, meaning that the company must forego ITS investment in their training and experience and pay EXTRA for a temporary worker that is less qualified... and 35% of the time, discover after paying out and suffering lost productivity that the worker is noth coming back, or wants to scale back their career aspirations in favor of time with their children.

This means the women, as a group, represent a significant increased COST to employ, regardless of pay.


Ergo- arguments of equal pay are specious. They are seeking preferential treatment that does not reflect their true value nor cost to their employer.

There ARE career women out there... but very few who will maintain that interest in a career their whole working lives. And those who do get tarnished by the vast majority who do not.

Add to these statistics the fact that MEN are 4 times as likely as women to be supporting children and spouses, financially, and it becomes clear that pay is NOT unequal in the overall labor market.

Women will get equal pay when they have equal responsibility and equally long and focused working lives.

When women in divorce court have judges look at them and say, "you can get a job and support yourself, and you and your husband shall BOTH pay an equal amount toward support of the children" - THEN women will qualify for absolutely equal pay.


But, in today's world... the term 'equal pay' is a like calling a gun a 'peacekeeper'.... its misleading as to the true objective and true result.
Equal pay means preferential treatment for the group that forms the least reliable workers.


Now, before I get pilloried for misogyny... let me point out that i feel the women interrupt their careers for FAR MORE IMPORTANT tasks.

I think the raising of decent human beings and their focus on family is the REASON MEN EVEN HAVE CAREERS.... and I feel that it is good and proper for MEN to SUPPORT their ex-wives who care for their children.
The truth is that MOST men hand over their earning to their women, in one form or another, and that women control the purse strings.

I am simply saying that it is unreasonable and illogical for women to IGNORE the REAL data that proves they represent a significantly higher cost to employers. And unreasonable that they suggest that that real cost should not be reflected in their payroll advancement.

I know it sucks if you happen to be the rare woman who will stick it out... but MOST women will, in their 20's, claim that they will stick it out.

They may do equal work for that year, or five years... but the company knows that they will take a break for child rearing and the man doing the same job will keep working.

 

[HazelGod]

Phil, while I agree to an extent, please let me just say, while I have the chance, that it was really nice knowing you :wink:

So, Kotch...have you noticed a lot of these discrepancies in workplace treatment / expectations since you've been a woman? :tongue:

 

[Mr_Cumalot]

Women deserve equality, as do ALL people of the world. BUT this should not become positive discrimination by somebody losing out on a job/whatever that was better just because somebody else gets pushed through in the name of equality.

Oh my! I've posted something on here that wasn't about sex or whinging out my "tiny" yet in reality mammoth cock. Looks like I'm here to stay...

(not necessarily in the girls forum...i'll move on now ladies *tips hat*)

 

[Phil Ayesho]

Phil, while I agree to an extent, please let me just say, while I have the chance, that it was really nice knowing you :wink:

Do not worry Kotchanski, the women do not know where to find me... I am safe...


I am ALL FOR equality... I just object to the provisional nature of what folks are willing to factor into their parochial concepts of "equality".

Women objected in court to dry cleaning costing more for their clothes than for men's, despite the fact that dry cleaners proved in court that women's clothes COST more because women more often demand THEIR clothing to be re-cleaned, re-pressed, or otherwise additional services.
(women do not make the same demands on the Mens' clothing they often bring in with their own)

The result was a COURT order that dry cleaners are not allowed to factor their higher cost of service and charge it to those demanding more service.

Dry cleaners, for their part, could not afford to charge LESS to women , or they would lose money, so they elected to charge MORE for men's clothing, to match women's rates.

The NET result of this demand was that the average dry cleaning bill of most customers went UP.
Since MOST women are in a relationship in which both their and their mates clothing is dry cleaned... their demand for price parity meant THEIR family, as a unit, had to pay more.

It that equality?
Hell, is that even intelligent?

Women get into bars with no cover, get drinks paid for, get out of tickets more, have their dinner or movie costs paid for, and in a hundred other small ways reap indirect benefits paid for by the earnings of men.

I do not hear them crying that this is inquitable and demanding that they pay equally for bars drinks, entrance fees and dating costs.

I know a female bartender who was whining to me about how the male bartenders at her place of employment got paid $1.50 more per hour than her.
So I asked her if she would be willing to pool bartender tips and divide them equally with all the other bartenders in exhange for equal pay.

"NO WAY!" she cried... "there is no way I am sharing MY tips with those guys...."
She went on to explain that she made a LOT more in tips than they did and how it was because she was much more friendly, and much more conversational....

And I said, bullshit. I pointed out that she knew as well as I did that MOST paying customers in most bars are men, and that men Tip pretty female bartenders better than they do men, REGARDLESS of service.

Her take in tips was DOUBLE that of the men who worked in the same bar.
A substantial benefit that she reaped based upon GENDER alone.

And, as upset as she was about "unequal" pay... she was unwilling to factor in the money that constitutes two thirds of a bartender's pay.

Is that equality?



I am all for equality... however, the party that stands to gain can not be the ones to DEFINE what constitutes "equality", for the same reason that most workers do not get to determine how much they should be paid.

If women want to CLAIM a GENDER based inequity... then ALL gender based discrepancies in income and outflow must be factored.

When we do that, it turns out that women, in the US, already pretty much have it all in their favor.

 

[hockeyguy741]

I am sure that you all know that women can't vote in Canada. The 1992 Charlottetown Accord promised to give women the right to vote, but it dissolved due to a lack of agreement among the province's premiers. The 1997 Referendum, which women couldn't take part in, almost gave the vote to women (52% to 48%). Many grassroots suffrage movements have had fizzled out due to lack of interest.

Come to think of it, maybe women shouldn't vote... They are far too hysterical and their boobs will just block the voting screens.

what are you talking about......women can vote in Canada

 

[D_Kay_Sarah_Sarah]

The whole equal rights thing has got the a bit screwed up along the way.

Despite very VERY few women we need to recognize women physically can not do some jobs. I don't think its right for the standards to be lowered for such physical jobs. A woman should prove herself to a mans capabilities if she wants to do a mans job.


I think the term "equality" should apply more to jobs such as ones of authority where men have typically be favored. This is where it should be truly equal in the job requirements and the job application process

 

[MickeyLee]

rec3000 - breasts are the last obstacle to true equality. some how in the last presidential election i voted for "bring back the mcrib". i blame inclement weather and spontaneous nipple erections.

ML

 

[BS76]

Phil speaks the truth. For true gender equality to happen that's going to require a lot of sacrifice on womens' part in all of the "entitlements" they're so used to. It's funny listening to Tom Leykis sometimes. I don't always agree with him, but when women call up fuming at him and he tears their arguments to shreds by pointing out their logical fallacies and illustrates their actual bias, well, it's stunning. It certainly opened my eyes to how lopsided things are in western culture these days.

 

[Qua]

Oh but Phil, you're just justifying the preservation of an inherently male-dominated and male-centric power structure

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

The whole equal rights thing has got the a bit screwed up along the way.

Despite very VERY few women we need to recognize women physically can not do some jobs. I don't think its right for the standards to be lowered for such physical jobs. A woman should prove herself to a mans capabilities if she wants to do a mans job.


I think the term "equality" should apply more to jobs such as ones of authority where men have typically be favored. This is where it should be truly equal in the job requirements and the job application process

This pretty much sums up how I feel. However when various institutions are sued and forced to take a certain percentage or women, standards have to be lowered due to the lack of qualified candidates that have applied.

Which in my opinion when the wrong person is put into place, other people have their lives put in danger.

If we are speaking to working administration jobs, or even pilots for that matter in the military, I'm ok with it. However women are allowed to be Military Police officers, which include processing POWs, guarding checkpoints, gatehouses etc. Which on a Army base may be somewhat safe, it's not while at war. And I want to know the person standing next to me can carry me out of there if need be, or can hold their own in hand to hand combat (not that all men can do that), it's an additional worry.

rec3000 - breasts are the last obstacle to true equality. some how in the last presidential election i voted for "bring back the mcrib". i blame inclement weather and spontaneous nipple erections.

ML

mmmmm The McRib

 

[MickeyLee]

Wartrac - sure the McRib gets all the love... nothing for McBoobs?

i would order a McBoob. two McBoobs. biggie sized.

ML

 

[D_Prudence_Admonition_Drightits]

I am still thinking long and hard about what I want to say. Still sorting things out. I have two obstacles to overcome, being black and being a woman.
It is very hard to be taken seriously....FOR ANY JOB, as employers automatically equate being a black woman as being unqualified.
Even with my credentials, I have to prove myself over, and over.
Very interesting answers on this post.

I have often wondered why a well hung man can't get a waitress job at Hooters?

 

[Hellboy0]

what are you talking about......women can vote in Canada

Joke, buddy