Women are more loyal partners

DC_DEEP

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No str8 man or a gay man would stay in a relationship where the partner changed their sex.
You are wrong. Period.
Purely in terms of sexual mechanics this makes some sense.

Lesbians often incorporate dildos in their sex lives so if one had a sex change the phallus would then be attached. Same person, new equipment.
From using a toy to direct intimacy of the person.

In a het couple if one of them changes gender the previous sexual function would be lost. Same for gay men. Same person, loss of equipment. From the direct physical intimacy of the person to toy substitute.

Imagine your partner telling you that even though they have the working parts they have chosen not to use them any longer and will in future only offer you a dildo or fleshlight for genital contact. Would you stay?
Gillette, I could be mistaken, but when it involves female-to-male surgery, I don't think the penis is functional for sex.
 

Gillette

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Gillette, I could be mistaken, but when it involves female-to-male surgery, I don't think the penis is functional for sex.

Not 100%, no. But depending on how elaborate you go there are erectile prostheses which can allow for sexual penetration just as there are for men with erectile dysfunctions.

Even if a transmale didn't have phalloplasy, I think my initial idea still holds water. In that instance it would be the same person - different outward appearance - same sexual function as when they were a woman.

Hetero men expect to be able to penetrate their partner's vagina.
Hetero women expect to be penetrated by their partner's penis.
Gay men (not all, but easily the majority) expect to be penetrated by their partner's penis or be able to penetrate their partner anally.*

My guess is that the reason it is more likely that fewer lesbian than hetero or gay male relationships end due to gender reassignment is because less of the original sexual dynamic (or function altogether) is lost in those cases. Exempting asexuals, having our basic sexual needs met is an intrinsic part of a relationship. Regardless of how strong a bond of friendship you have with your partner, if your basic needs are not met because of a conscious choice by your partner there's going to be some serious turbulence.

*I'm wondering how this would hold up in a situation of a strict top/bottom gay relationship were the bottom to be transwoman.
 

Principessa

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I am a woman and if I were to marry a man who later decided to become a woman. I would leave him . . . quickly. I understand that the whole essence of his being is still the same . . . but he is no longer a man. I LOVE men, not women. Like Goodwood I think I would also feel a bit betrayed as well as questioning my own sanity for not seeing this before hand.

No str8 man or a gay man would stay in a relationship where the partner changed their sex. I guess I have a different definition of loyalty or commitment or whatever you want to call it, but women both str8 and gay have stayed with their partners after a sex change.
Whatever it is, women have more of it than men do.
I disagree that women stay in situations like that out of loyalty. I think in some cases it's that the woman has extremely low self-esteem and feels that a bad relationship is better than none at all. :frown1:

Generally speaking I think Labradors make more loyal partners:tongue:
True, but Cocker Spaniels aren't bad either. :tongue:


You are wrong. Period. I'm sorry DC; but you were a little vague in your answer. Could you possibly clarify yourself. :biggrin1: :tongue: Gillette, I could be mistaken, but when it involves female-to-male surgery, I don't think the penis is functional for sex.
Well then what good is it?!?


I also heard that whether the surgery is from male to female or female to male, once you change you lose the ability to have an orgasm.
 

Mem

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I disagree that women stay in situations like that out of loyalty. I think in some cases it's that the woman has extremely low self-esteem and feels that a bad relationship is better than none at all. :frown1:

I don't think staying is low self-esteem at all, in fact you need high self esteem to be able to become a gay relationship if you were husband and wife, or become a str8 relationship if you were a lesbian couple before.

I think it's a case of true love and commitment, where the sex is no longer the most important thing in the relationship.

I also would not be so presumptuous to tell someone "you are wrong". Sounds to me like that would be someone who had Mommy or Daddy issues that was told "shut up, sit down", (but I am being presumptuous).:wink:
 

Northland

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The truth of the matter here-and I know that there are those who will deny even this-is that unless we have been through this situation we do not know how we would react. As a bisexual man, even I do not know for certain how I would react.

Some people are more into the actual person-emotions- than into just the sex. Add to this mix, a matter of how long a couple has been together, their age, and perhaps a gazillion other factors. Would the couple be more likely to remain united if an outside sex partner were allowed for the one who did not have the gender change?

In 1998 I met a man who was a man (no, it was not sexual). He was a charming cheerful and happy man. All appeared to be fine on the outside. Then he announced his intentions of becoming a woman. I was somewhat surprised, even stunned. It hit me out of leftfield. Over the next few years he did all the necessary things towards becoming a woman. He let his hair grow long, took hormone injections, wore women's clothing, went to thousands of counseling sessions. In 2003 he had phase two, when two massive breast implants were installed. That was when the friendship began to have problems. He (still had the penis) became obsessed with the damned breasts. That was everything. Well, that and the damned hair. Every place he went, out came the brush and the brushing of the hair began. It was a phase.

In 2005 he had the final cutting (say goodbye to the penis)and reconstruction (well, technically original construction) of a vagina. Gradually things began to improve and she became more of her old self again. Charming, cheerful, happy, giving, caring. My friend, now a woman, a beautiful and confident woman, was back. If I had abandoned all connection at the start there would have been nothing. It taught me a lesson as well. I found within myself the knowledge that, if I truly have a bond with someone, it cannot be completely broken by something such as a gender modification. If they are someone I really care about, then shouldn't I also care enough about them, love them enough to maintain some relationship with them? Shouldn't I be supportive of them? Is turning and racing out the door supportive? Most definitely it is not. I saw persons walk out on my friend when he announced his intentions. Is that how anybody wants to be remembered? Is that any different in essence from the haters of gays, blacks, Hispanics, Jews, or any other group of people?

Again, I must indicate that I do not know that I would stay in a physically intimate relationship with a man or woman if they felt the need to do this. I will however say, that I would not totally abandon them in the manner which so many- even in this thread- seem willing to do. If you can do that, then the relationship was doomed towards failure from the start.
 

Northland

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I don't think staying is low self-esteem at all, in fact you need high self esteem to be able to become a gay relationship if you were husband and wife, or become a str8 relationship if you were a lesbian couple before.

I think it's a case of true love and commitment, where the sex is no longer the most important thing in the relationship.

I also would not be so presumptuous to tell someone "you are wrong". Sounds to me like that would be someone who had Mommy or Daddy issues that was told "shut up, sit down", (but I am being presumptuous).:wink:
I could have saved myself a lot of time and energy if I'd just posted what you said Mem. (and you did it in a much more concise manner-I yearn for the day when I can keep things brief)
 

Mem

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Saying "you are wrong" is tactless and harsh.

There are many other ways of saying it such as "I totally disagree with you".
 

Lex

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You are wrong. Period..

Saying "you are wrong" is tactless and harsh.

But your statement was wrong. (I.e., inaccurate, incorrect).

There are many other ways of saying it such as "I totally disagree with you".

Okay, I'll bite.

No str8 man or a gay man would stay in a relationship where the partner changed their sex.
This is a statement that you are not qualified to make. Saying that no man would do this implies that you know and control what all other men do. And you do not. Since there have been str8 and gay men who have stayed with partners (whether you have direct evidence or not), that makes your statement/opinion incorrect.
 

Lex

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... Like Goodwood I think I would also feel a bit betrayed as well as questioning my own sanity for not seeing this before hand.

NJQT and Goodwood -- I think you have to really be careful and not feel that someone else's self-discovery is somehow a betrayal of your relationship. Moreover, you may not be able to see it as the spouse may not even have seen it before now. Many people struggle with orientation and sexual identity for years--decades--and, often, they are truly unsure or even unaware that they are unsure.

Speaking as someone who took many years to "figure it out," sometimes you get the "feeling" that something is not totally right, but you can not pin point it. Given the societal pressures to conform within heterosexist confines (there are still not a lot of "acceptable choices" for gay/bi/transgendered/sexual people), you can see how someone could just do what everyone else seems to think/say is the thing to do.


I disagree that women stay in situations like that out of loyalty. I think in some cases it's that the woman has extremely low self-esteem and feels that a bad relationship is better than none at all. :frown1:

I have to take exception to the fact that here you seem to say that the mixed orientation/transgendered aspects of this relationship categorically make it "bad." I am not saying that I know why people stay--I am just saying that choosing to stay may not have anything to do with esteem or having something rather than nothing, although I am sure that this happens. Sometimes, I think it has to do with two people genuinely loving and caring about each other. I know of many "non-traditional" marriages and I think, just separating out of one, that no one on the outside should judge the inside until they have been there. Mutual love can be a powerful thing and can overcome many challenges. My relationship with the mother of my children is and was MANY things, including non-traditional, but I would hesitate to think that either of us or anyone who knew us would ever say that it was "bad."
 

Mem

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I understand. You always have to defend your friends. I was offended by the tone of "you are wrong. period". I should have said that I can't imagine that any man, especially str8 would stay in this situation.
 

Lex

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I understand. You always have to defend your friends.

I was not defending him. In fact, I was trying to help you see why he and I (and others) told you what you were saying had no basis.


I was offended by the tone of "you are wrong. period". I should have said that I can't imagine that any man, especially str8 would stay in this situation.

Now that statement is a whole lot better in regards to the points you are trying to discuss. I hope you can see the semantic differences.
 

ManlyBanisters

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I think I have an inkling at what the OP may have been driving at.

Often these relationships, when a change of sex and/or sexuality occurs, can continue and the basis for the continuing relationship is friendship. Sometimes sex remains a part of that, sometimes it doesn't. I don't think the ability to be a loyal friend can be given more weight in men or women - I think those friendships may be expressed differently and I think society views the resulting relationships differently and gives more weight to those that still appear to be couples - but each relationship is individual and who are we to judge who are the 'loyal couples' and who are not?

I think we hear about far more cases where a man has found his sexual orientation to be bi / gay - we also hear about the occassional case where a woman in a lesbian relationship has opted to become a man. This gives us the skewed perspective that the female partners of these people are the loyal partners.

A case in point to the contrary. A teacher of mine discovered her sexuality in her forties. Her children were young teens. She found a lover. Neither she nor her husband, nor the other woman, wanted to break up the kids' household. Her husband accepted all of this and the three adults and the children lived together in the same house, with him being the main breadwinner for the family. His sexual relationship with his wife ended, but the friendship endured. As far as I am aware, even with the kids now grown up, the three adults still live together. What a wonderful, loyal friendship.
 

Mem

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I could have saved myself a lot of time and energy if I'd just posted what you said Mem. (and you did it in a much more concise manner-I yearn for the day when I can keep things brief)


:notworthy: I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.:wink: