women overpowering men in achievement, especially in the younger age groups

[Ethyl]

Male nurses do exist-- I never said they didn't-- but they are quite rare.

You're simply wrong. My mother worked in the medical field for years. I saw plenty of male nurses emerging during that time.

What about if women don't go into certain fields because they don't like them-- personal choice perhaps?

Just like men I know who are artists, designers, writers, and are bad at math. Go figure.

Alas, we see only what we want to see....

Saying this doesn't make it so, plus it alleviates any responsibility for stepping in the other person's shoes and making at least a faint attempt to see the subject from another point of view.

 

[snoozan]

You're simply wrong. My mother worked in the medical field for years. I saw plenty of male nurses emerging during that time.

Right now the demand for nursing is so high that men are finally starting to see that it's okay to be a nurse and not a doctor, or physical therapist, or other health care professional. I think the barrier to men in nursing (as well as teaching) has been societal as these were two of the very few jobs that were traditionally held by women. Presently, men only make up 5% of nurses working actively in the field, but nursing schools are showing steady jumps in male enrollment. In 2003, I think, the national average of men in nursing school was 10%. There's a lot of stigma attached to men who are nurses because men are supposed to be doctors. This is finally going away. My brother, who was a staff sergeant in the army and has 4 purple hearts, is in nursing school, if you want to talk about someone who is super-masculine doing a "female" job. I don't think temperament differences between men and women account for the lack of men in nursing at all.

Also speaking of nursing, which job is more physically demanding, nursing (female) or being a doctor (male)? I'll give you a hint, it's not being a doctor. Nursing is incredibly physically demanding, much more so than many occupations that are traditionally male.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Fuck paychecks. If you really want to achieve your dreams and excellence in your field, you don't go for a job that brings home a paycheck. Women are starting to get that starting businesses are the place to be, and since a lot of us have husbands that can back us financially, have spent years running a household, and have been called on to be creative to make things work and juggle things financially, we are great businesspeople. Necessity is the mother of invention, and for women who are educated and decide to make family a priority, starting a small business is a perfect solution-- and when the kids go to school, that's when you can really grow a business.

That's my plan, anyway. I'm not sure if it was on subject.

Meeting a paycheck tends to be a dead end. Meeting a payroll is for those with big ovaries. LOL.

 

[titan1968]

No Wyld, that was true 20 or 30 years ago. The job market has changed a lot since then. It's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know that makes a difference. You can have ALL the degrees in the world, but if you don't have the connections, you don't get the job.

There is a chronic shortage in manual labourers, plumbers, electricians, etc. People who graduate in those fields (i.e. technical/ vocational ) are getting paid extremely well. If you don't believe me, look at your local newspaper. So vocational schools are needed. If the demand for those trades weren't there, those schools wouldn't exist, would they? Supply/ demand.

A degree--undergraduate or graduate--is fine, but it's of little use if the demand for it in the market place is low.

This is the sort of short sighted thinking I simply cannot comprehend. Bluntly, with my education I make 5-10 times that number but the key is the effort and money put in to get the education. Why would someone with the intelligence not want to be at the top of their field? Thats what some women understand today better than men I guess. IMO you cannot be at the top with vocational training. A degree especially an advanced degree although not a guarantee is way more likely to position a person for success.

IMO in 15 years highly skilled women will be meeting payrolls and not paychecks. I can see from these posts women get it and men do not. How the fuck did that change so much so quickly?

 

[snoozan]

No Wyld, that was true 20 or 30 years ago. The job market has changed a lot since then. It's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know that makes a difference. You can have ALL the degrees in the world, but if you don't have the connections, you don't get the job.

Huh?

Take a look at the charts on this page. They are on a college-promoting website, but the source is 2000 US Census information. 20-30 years ago? Show me some numbers to support your thesis, it's interesting. Until then, this is what we've got:

Job Salary Earnings Comparison - College Degrees and High School Diploma

For whatever reason (and what they are can be easily debated), more education means more money when you look across the board.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

No Wyld, that was true 20 or 30 years ago. The job market has changed a lot since then. It's not WHAT you know, but WHO you know that makes a difference. You can have ALL the degrees in the world, but if you don't have the connections, you don't get the job.

There is a chronic shortage in manual labourers, plumbers, electricians, etc. People who graduate in those fields (i.e. technical/ vocational ) are getting paid extremely well. If you don't believe me, look at your local newspaper. So vocational schools are needed. If the demand for those trades weren't there, those schools wouldn't exist, would they? Supply/ demand.

A degree--undergraduate or graduate--is fine, but it's of little use if the demand for it in the market place is low.

Let me offer a mea culpa. I do believe there is a shortage of that sort of skilled labor and all those fields represent good opportunities. However I would hope that a person in that field would aspire to being a plumbing contractor, electrical contractor, or construction contractor or again the head guy/gal, the one that meets a payroll and not a paycheck.

Your point is correct and well taken.

 

[titan1968]

Snoozan, being able to market your skills can mean the difference between working and not working. You can have a lot of degrees, but they will prove to be useless if you're unable to sell yourself. That's the reality of the job market in the 21st century. I suggest you take a good look at the last one.

Immigration Canada, Immigrate to Canada, canadian Immigration & Visa Services

Salaries and Wages for Trades Jobs in Canada | Canadian Trades Salary Guide

Trafford Publishing: How to Find Work in the 21st Century

Education is important (I never said it wasn't), but a degree alone (undergraduate or graduate) isn't enough to land you a job. In today's highly competitive and global workplace, people have to be adaptable and be able to market their skills because there are a lot of other people with degrees.

 

[snoozan]

Snoozan, being able to market your skills can mean the difference between working and not working. You can have a lot of degrees, but they will prove to be useless if you're unable to sell yourself. That's the reality of the job market in the 21st century. I suggest you take a good look at the last one.

I agree with this. While having education is important, you're right, learning to market yourself and your skills can make or break your career. I got a degree in my field, and for what I do now, it's not necessary. However, with that degree I have the option of pursuing avenues of employment in my field that a lot of my colleagues without a degree cannot. Also, the education itself informs my work and I look at what I do fundamentally differently than a lot of my colleagues do. With that said, you're right-- it comes down to marketing myself, making connections (being in school, a fraternity, alumni group can help that), working hard, and a little bit of luck to make a success of what I'm doing. I think the best avenue, and the one that I will suggest to my son as he gets older, is to amass as many degrees, skills, certifications, whatever as you can through your life and use those and other things to make professional connections. The more the better, in my mind.

 

[Drifterwood]

*sigh* you waste my time.

You still have yet to address the strenuous nature of men's work, or the much higher amount of risk. And speaking of the Congo... men die quite often in the civil war that has been going on and off for some time.

Don't be so arrogant New End.

The IFAD surveys show that globally women put in more hours than men. Whether the work is more or less strenuous on a pro rata basis of initial strength I do not know. Often it is. I can comfortably bench press more than 100 kgs and I don't train as such anymore, so some "physical" work just isn't as strenuous for me as it would be for someone who struggles with 50 kgs. Besides, the jobs and how we do them match our ability - if we were less strong or more strong, we would design how we do things differently. Stone Henge could not have been erected without brain power.

If men are so stupid to slaughter each other in Civil Wars, then so be it. Frankly man's constant ability to slaughter himself is not something to be proud of.

I didn't start this side shoot of the thread, I am simply refuting unsupported statements that you and others have made.

Incidentally, men are the weakest physically that they have ever been.

 

[titan1968]

If a guy really wants to go into nursing, he'll go into nursing regardless of what some people might think, so the stigma doesn't really have a bearing. Still, 10% is not a lot (it's about the same in Canada), most nurses still are women and I don't that that number will change much in the future-- it's still a 'woman's' profession.

I think you have a bias against doctors. They work just as hard as nurses. They have extremely long hours and can be on call 24 hours a day. Have a look at any ER and you'll see them.

It is wrong to say that nurses do all of the work (i.e. physical work). Nursing aides (my mother is one) and other hospital attendants do the dirty work and the physically demanding jobs (they're at the bottom of the pecking order), the jobs that nurses turn their noses up to.

Right now the demand for nursing is so high that men are finally starting to see that it's okay to be a nurse and not a doctor, or physical therapist, or other health care professional. I think the barrier to men in nursing (as well as teaching) has been societal as these were two of the very few jobs that were traditionally held by women. Presently, men only make up 5% of nurses working actively in the field, but nursing schools are showing steady jumps in male enrollment. In 2003, I think, the national average of men in nursing school was 10%. There's a lot of stigma attached to men who are nurses because men are supposed to be doctors. This is finally going away. My brother, who was a staff sergeant in the army and has 4 purple hearts, is in nursing school, if you want to talk about someone who is super-masculine doing a "female" job. I don't think temperament differences between men and women account for the lack of men in nursing at all.

Also speaking of nursing, which job is more physically demanding, nursing (female) or being a doctor (male)? I'll give you a hint, it's not being a doctor. Nursing is incredibly physically demanding, much more so than many occupations that are traditionally male.

 

[titan1968]

First, I think that we must take those surveys with a pinch of salt. Was anything left out of those surveys? Did they give a complete picture of what was really going on? Without the whole story, graphs and numbers don't give the whole picture.

Second, I don't believe that primitive man wished those blocks up. Brainpower alone could never have lifted those blocks. Have you ever been to Stonehenge? Those blocks are huge and incredibly heavy.

Third, yes, war is terrible, but it's not new, it has been going on for thousands of years. Just open any history book.

Don't be so arrogant New End.

The IFAD surveys show that globally women put in more hours than men. Whether the work is more or less strenuous on a pro rata basis of initial strength I do not know. Often it is. I can comfortably bench press more than 100 kgs and I don't train as such anymore, so some "physical" work just isn't as strenuous for me as it would be for someone who struggles with 50 kgs. Besides, the jobs and how we do them match our ability - if we were less strong or more strong, we would design how we do things differently. Stone Henge could not have been erected without brain power.

If men are so stupid to slaughter each other in Civil Wars, then so be it. Frankly man's constant ability to slaughter himself is not something to be proud of.

I didn't start this side shoot of the thread, I am simply refuting unsupported statements that you and others have made.

Incidentally, men are the weakest physically that they have ever been.

 

[titan1968]

Define plenty. 5%, 6%, 10%? Does that constitute a majority? By the way, my mother has too.

I have no problem in stepping in other people's shoes. Empathy is a good quality, don't you think?

You're simply wrong. My mother worked in the medical field for years. I saw plenty of male nurses emerging during that time.

Just like men I know who are artists, designers, writers, and are bad at math. Go figure.


Saying this doesn't make it so, plus it alleviates any responsibility for stepping in the other person's shoes and making at least a faint attempt to see the subject from another point of view.