Women who don't really like other women.

[Drifterwood]

After all the talk about Misogyny and Feminism, it occured to me that at least a couple of the women here who also happen to be my friends, have stated in the past that they don't really like/get on with other women. My mother is the same as it happens.

How do you think women like this fit into the feminist misogynist mix?

 

[sbat]

Interesting perspective petite.

My girlfriend is more like you - wants to be liked by other women. She tends to attract resentment rather easily because she does have a body other women die for (the whole size 0 thing, etc etc). To compensate, she's very deferential and overaccomodating - almost an apology for being attractive. The things you mentioned about being non-threatening to other women in a sexual sense applies even more to Turkish culture it would seem.

My mother and sister, on the other hand, are dominant and not ashamed to be. My mom takes charge, and it pisses other women off to be sure, but somehow, they all turn to her for help or when they need a solid shoulder.

I've also seen that among women, being viewed as non-threatening and likeable doesn't translate into winning genuine respect - although I think that's a truism that transcends gender.

The women I know who have genuine male friends, and have far more male friends than female friends are more respected (not necessarily liked, mind you) than the girly girls. Probably because this translates to greater success among men in the areas of business that are still "boy's clubs"

Women have to be careful about striking the right "tone" around other women. It's complicated in ways that it just isn't around men. Women will attack other women if they're too sexual or too pretty, or they act too far outside of whatever is the norm with the friend's group, because then the newbie appears to be judging them. For example, when I met the girlfriends of TheBF's old college buddies, I didn't want to be intimidating, which I would be if I dressed too sexy or made myself look "too pretty" so I toned it down. No one wants the new girlfriend to make the other girlfriends look less shiny and desirable. That would make them hate me, and it's a tightrope, because I know that when TheBF introduces me to his male friends, he wants them to envy him, he wants me to be the pretty sexpot that makes them congratulate him, which would make their girlfriends hate my guts. When I was trying to be friend's with one old boyfriend's new wife, the photos I sent of myself weren't the most flattering of me, I was at Mardi Gras and drunk and looking a little silly and funny in the photo with TheBF, because the new wife is 12 years older than me and I knew that I would be "easier" to like if I didn't seem like a sexual rival. The photo was meant to convey that I'm fun-loving and no threat to her because I wouldn't be making him wish that he was with me instead.

I don't discuss sex with most other women because it makes a lot of women uncomfortable, which I suspect is because some women are afraid of feeling inferior in the bedroom. Maybe they're very inhibited and don't want another woman making them feel like they're bad in bed, maybe they're very uninhibited and they're afraid of being judged as too slutty, who knows. I avoid it if other women avoid it, regardless of whatever their reasons are. When other women are comfortable talking about it, I feel comfortable talking about it and I participate. If I didn't, my non-participation would seem like I was judging them. I'm not. (I'm not talking about jokes, of course, all women make jokes about sex in one way or another, but that's not actually talking about sex, that's laughing at something sexual. No personal information is actually conveyed by a joke, which is intended only to make others laugh.)

I am a romantic, so I watch romantic movies, but I hate 99% of them because they're usually so dumb! I want to love them, but they make it so hard for me to love them.



So true. And the rules on what's judged and how they're judged is different with every group of women. Social interactions among women are more complicated than social interactions between women and men.

The main problem with having male friends is twofold for me. One is that it seems like eventually every male friend makes a pass sometime. Drunken passes are easy to get over, because you can just pass them off as "We were drunk, don't worry about it." Those aren't a big deal at all. The Big Problem is The Unwanted Confession. I have male friends whom I'd been friends with for over 12 or 15 years, and then after all those years of not once showing any sexual or romantic interest at all, they'll tell me they want to move the friendship into a serious romantic relationship with me or that they've been carrying a torch, or something else that I really wish they didn't say. Around the 20th time that happens, and those friendships never survive past that confession because of the hurt and embarrassment of getting rejected, the heartbreak makes you wonder if all male/female friendships are just meant to be temporary and end the same way. The Other Problem is how many friendships with men have ended because the man began dating or married a jealous woman. That's ended so many of my friendships with men, when the new woman in his life really doesn't want to be my friend and then they just disappear from my life.

All friendships are complicated. They're all just complicated in different ways.

 

[Patchos]

The patriarchy is to blame for this. Women competing against each other, or even defending men against other women. I saw a friend on Facebook defending the actions of a rugby player accused of being involved in the gang rape of a female fan. That's exactly what the patriarchy wants - for women to tear each other down. We are doing their dirty work for them.

I've always had more female friends than males. I feel I can only really trust another woman.

 

[HiddenLacey]

I'm friends with both. I may have more close male friends, but only 1-2 of those would I reveal most of my secrets to. I have 3 very close female friends. But a lot of female friends that I will go out to lunch with, etc. I tend not to hang around very catty people of either sex. Catty does not, include b-itches, because my best friend will tell you to your face that shes a mean bitch and shes had a bad fu*king day so move your a$$ if you don't want it handed to you. Lord I love that woman Our relantionship works out perfectly we understand each other though we tend to be night and day on most things. By catty I mean people that tend to argue and try to tear others down. Simply not my style. I think there are catty men and women, I personally have just encountered more catty women than men. Just my experience of course.

Edited changed last two sentences.

 

[D_Sparroe Spongecaques]

I have 2 female friends,the rest are males.

The female friends both work with me and i would trust them with my life,we are there in a breath for eachother in times of need.

I don't like bitchiness,catty,2 faced and alot of my female aquaintances are exactly that.They'd sell there own granny to save their skin to get out of strife.

My best friend in the world is a male,he's like a big brother to me and i love him alot (not in a romantic way mind).He is about the only male who would tell me to my face if something looks wrong on me,sounds wrong etc etc and i wouldnt take offence.

 

[Drifterwood]

I feel I can only really trust another woman.

Do you think that this type of discrimination makes you sexist?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

That's sad, Patch. And self-perpetuating.

I get on well with both men and women.

I take each person as I find them and try very hard not to enter any relationship (personal or professional) with any preconceived notions based on sex, race, social standing, sexual orientation or similar.

I think it makes Patch sexist. How could it not?

 

[Drifterwood]

I think it makes Patch sexist. How could it not?

Well it is far more moderate than my contempory "All men are rapists, castrate them now" feminist friends. However it does suggest that there is still a branch of feminism which is driven as much by a dislike/distrust of men rather than a simply positive advocacy of female equality.

 

[Patchos]

You're both wrong, and don't understand sexism too well.

I don't trust men because I've yet to meet a male feminist. I trust women because at least I know they've been through the same things as me.

 

[petite]

Women can also be misogynists. There are a lot of reasons why a woman would say that she "doesn't get along with other women" though, it's not necessarily misogyny.

I have just a few close friends and a lot of acquaintances. My close friends include both men and women. TheBF is my absolute best friend. I tell him everything and nothing I ever tell him ever causes any problems between us, which is the way it should be between best friends.

I know that sexual rivalry is a problem among women, and I suspect that has something to do with it, and that may affect very attractive or very sexual women more since they present a greater "sexual threat." I've been betrayed many times by female friends. When I was younger, quite a few of my female friends betrayed me by trying to seduce my First Love. One friend of mine, a virgin, drove over to my First Love's house and knocked his door. When he answered, she went straight to his bedroom and proceeded to remove all of her clothing. She wanted him to take her virginity. Another friend of mine tried to kiss my First Love several times, unsuccessfully, which he didn't tell me about for a long time, until it happened a few times. When I was older, one of my roommates asked my First Love for a ride somewhere, and while he was driving she took off every single article of her clothing in an attempt to seduce him, in broad daylight. None of those three women ever indicated that they would betray me one day and all of them pretended to be my close friends. (Okay, about the friend who tried to get him to take her virginity did call him a "sex god" and said that he "oozed a pheromone" and said that she had been attracted to him from the moment that they met, about six months earlier, but I thought that was in the past.) None of my First Love's male friends ever betrayed his trust by coming onto me. TheBoyfriend's female roommate was a passive-aggressive bitch towards me and treated me like I wasn't good enough for him, but I saw right through her. She was obviously hoping to make the jump from her bedroom to his, which he thought was annoying. She only pretended to be "friendly" towards me. Sometimes when I've begun dating someone new, there have been female friends of my new beau who've behaved catty towards me, and almost every single time I eventually figured out that sometime in the past there had been a one night stand or something else like that that just never panned out, or I discovered that the woman was pining after the man I was dating. Before TheBoyfriend and I started dating, I heard a lot of my female friends say naughty naughty things about TheBoyfriend and they all wanted him. One of those friends (former friend, now) still hasn't forgiven me. After our first date, she said, "Well... I guess you won." The last time I spoke to her she was cold towards me, obviously still jealous and angry at me. When I was in my early twenties, a rival was one of the people involved in spreading malicious and damaging gossip about me. She insisted that she was my friend. Experiences like these have made me wary of other women.

There are some women who just seem to be naturally catty towards other women. I imagine that those might be some of the women who "don't get along with other women." I don't get it. I find that behavior confusing. In the workplace there have been tensions with certain other women, for seemingly no apparent reason at all, or at least no reason I could detect. I suspect that isn't sexual rivalry but some sort of social rivalry, but the moves appear to be identical. I've been treated that way by a few girlfriends of TheBoyfriend's old college buddies. I don't understand why or what the motivation is for that. Most of them seem to have accepted me now, but one never will and she's just a passive-aggressive bitch to me every chance she gets. I've never done anything to that woman, but when her boyfriend hosted us and some other friends for Mardi Gras, she took every opportunity to contradict me or make my time there unpleasant, even though that was totally inappropriate behavior for the girlfriend of the host. Why? Who knows. I put up with it as well as I could so as not to insult the host or TheBoyfriend. I suppose she was trying to assert some sort of social dominance over me? That's an issue that rarely comes up in male/female friendships.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

@ Patch: So you don't trust any men based on your experiences with some men. And you are basing that lack of trust not on the actions of an individual but on his gender.

That's sexist.

 

[Patchos]

So you don't trust any men based on your experiences with some men. And you are basing that lack of trust not on the actions of an individual but on his gender.

That's sexist.

There are no feminist men. Understand now?

 

[ManlyBanisters]

There are no feminist men. Understand now?

Why do you think I'm not understanding?

You are incorrectly judging that there are no feminist men. I know several feminist men personally, rather many more by reputation and at least one radical feminist who is also a man.

 

[Patchos]

I don't believe it's possible for a man to be a feminist. It looks like we just plain disagree.

 

[ManlyBanisters]

I don't believe it's possible for a man to be a feminist. It looks like we just plain disagree.

Yes, I guess we do.

Just from a discussion point of view may I ask why you think it is impossible for a man to be a feminist? Perhaps it is to do with the way we define 'feminist'.

Do you also think it is impossible for a white person to be (have been) a civil rights activist?

 

[petite]

You're both wrong, and don't understand sexism too well.

I don't trust men because I've yet to meet a male feminist. I trust women because at least I know they've been through the same things as me.

I know a lot of male feminists, such as every single man I've ever dated for any length of time. The attitudes of some people on LPSG surprise me sometimes because IRL, I know a lot of men with feminist beliefs and I forget sometimes that Cro-magnons still exist, or that backwards attitudes about the "role of women" are still taken seriously. I think I could consider all the men I work with to be feminists, but they're all excessively educated. I think male feminists are more common among very well educated men.

 

[B_Hickboy]

I don't believe it's possible for a man to be a feminist. It looks like we just plain disagree.

You attract people who are like you.

 

[HiddenLacey]

Women can also be misogynists. There are a lot of reasons why a woman would say that she "doesn't get along with other women" though, it's not necessarily misogyny.

she's just a passive-aggressive bitch to me every chance she gets. I've never done anything to that woman, but when her boyfriend hosted us and some other friends for Mardi Gras, she took every opportunity to contradict me or make my time there unpleasant, even though that was totally inappropriate behavior for the girlfriend of the host. Why? Who knows. I put up with it as well as I could so as not to insult the host or TheBoyfriend. I suppose she was trying to assert some sort of social dominance over me? That's an issue that rarely comes up in male/female friendships.

Lol, that happens to me a lot too. Petite you know that sometimes people just are who they are. Normally I try to be excessively nice to those people, but eventually I give up. You cannot always please everyone no matter what you do.

 

[Patchos]

I'm talking specifically about feminism and the parallel is not the same Manly. It's just not.

Race and sexual orientation are still no match for being female in a patriarchal society. Women are still the bottom rung. Gay men and men of colour are still men.

For all the men who call themselves "feminist" I'd bet a million none of them think there is anything wrong with their porn addiction. Objectification? But I really really need to bust a nut!

Anyway, my relationships with my girl friends are without drama. I let go of the people who weren't good for me a long time ago. Now all I am left with are incredibly strong meaningful friendships. I feel a very deep bond with my female friends and family.

 

[petite]

For all the men who call themselves "feminist" I'd bet a million none of them think there is anything wrong with their porn addiction. Objectification? But I really really need to bust a nut!

I'm not going to defend all porn, that would be impossible to do! But I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with objectification. It's complicated.

I drool over men all the time. I enjoy looking at some of the galleries. I watch porn. I objectify men.

Objectification is a problem when it causes one person not to take the person being objectified seriously, which is more of an issue for women than men, such as if a woman's primary value is based upon her fuckability or beauty. If objectification causes a person to treat another person like meat or chattel, that's an issue. When a person can be objectified, BUT that person's primary value isn't based on his/her beauty or fuckability, then there's nothing wrong with it.

Objectification is a problem when it promotes unhealthy standards of beauty, as Hilaire pointed out recently with one of his threads about new trends in preferred male model body types. Objectification isn't a problem if it promotes healthy standards of beauty, such as healthy men and women at the peak of fitness.

I've observed that men are made just as uncomfortable by female objectification as women are by male objectification, such as when groups of women openly giggle and joke about soccer players' bodies, or when men witness women watching Chippendales dancers. I think that's just a natural reaction. There is an awareness of judgments being passed, and that makes those being judged uncomfortable.