Women who don't really like other women.
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B_subgirrl
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I'm not a big fan of women myself.
When I was younger I was a very sexual person and definitely wasn't subtle about it. A lot of women seemed to be bothered by it. I think it was in part jealousy, and in part that I wasn't behaving as someone of my gender 'should' behave.
As I've gotten older I'm less overtly sexual. To be honest, I think this is less to do with age and more to do with a few years of depression which left me with a whole lot less confidence in myself. Since I've been less overtly sexual I've found it easier to gain women acquaintances.
But I still don't like women very much. I've found that men tend to be much more honest and upfront than women. If a man has a problem with me, he'll usually let me know. Women seem much more likely to just send subtle signals or act bitchy.
And women do some seriously weird shit. For example, I once had some major problems with a woman who was supposed to be my friend. I'd told her that I was having sex with someone at work. I also made a point of telling her that it needed to stay a secret because if got out it could cause some serious complications. She promptly went and told heaps of people at work. We denied everything but it still caused some problems. Who does that to someone when they are supposed to be friends?
I think part of it might also be like attracting like. I've often been told that I think more like a man than a woman (although this is usually with sex-related stuff) so maybe I'm just attracted to people who are similar to me.
Having said all this, I do have two women friends. I need them and value them. They are both very upfront and honest, and are also quite open to others having different opinions and morals to them. I believe these are the main reasons why I have been friends with them for so long.
When I was younger I was a very sexual person and definitely wasn't subtle about it. A lot of women seemed to be bothered by it. I think it was in part jealousy, and in part that I wasn't behaving as someone of my gender 'should' behave.
As I've gotten older I'm less overtly sexual. To be honest, I think this is less to do with age and more to do with a few years of depression which left me with a whole lot less confidence in myself. Since I've been less overtly sexual I've found it easier to gain women acquaintances.
But I still don't like women very much. I've found that men tend to be much more honest and upfront than women. If a man has a problem with me, he'll usually let me know. Women seem much more likely to just send subtle signals or act bitchy.
And women do some seriously weird shit. For example, I once had some major problems with a woman who was supposed to be my friend. I'd told her that I was having sex with someone at work. I also made a point of telling her that it needed to stay a secret because if got out it could cause some serious complications. She promptly went and told heaps of people at work. We denied everything but it still caused some problems. Who does that to someone when they are supposed to be friends?
I think part of it might also be like attracting like. I've often been told that I think more like a man than a woman (although this is usually with sex-related stuff) so maybe I'm just attracted to people who are similar to me.
Having said all this, I do have two women friends. I need them and value them. They are both very upfront and honest, and are also quite open to others having different opinions and morals to them. I believe these are the main reasons why I have been friends with them for so long.
B_subgirrl
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Brilliant post Petite! I agree. Objectification works both ways and there's nothing inherently wrong with it.
Why don't men feel objectified as much as women? Why don't men mind when they feel a womans gaze? Because we live in a patriarchal society and being a man gives you the privilege of not being objectified and judged by your appearance. If a man had to testify in court as a result of rape would his appearance be scrutinized? (was his skirt too short? was he showing cleavage?). Women are always being judged, scrutinized and objectified. How fuckable are we? Are we hot enough? Are we yummy mummies? Are we sexy but not slutty? Who determines that?
Lol, that happens to me a lot too. Petite you know that sometimes people just are who they are.Normally I try to be excessively nice to those people, but eventually I give up. You cannot always please everyone no matter what you do.
This is so true!
I was just pointing out that that sort of jockeying for social dominance really doesn't happen in male/female friendships, and I think that's one of the reasons why those friendships can be easier to maintain. They're a little bit simpler.
AlteredEgo
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Agreed.
I had one of these once. I wasn't even having a romance with the guy, just very, very regular sex. She wanted to be in my place so, so badly. The only reason she wasn't, is that I don't require sex to be followed up with love. She wanted a boyfriend, and he wasn't into that type of relationship at the time. I think she thought he was being too boyfriend-ish with me for someone who said he didn't want a girlfriend. Sometimes she was passive-aggressive with me. Other times she was straight up aggressive.
I have experienced this at work but socially.
I try to be open to new women. Offline, I don't often meet ones that like me too well, and even fewer that I like myself. I don't mistreat the ones I don't like. However, often the ones who don't like me can't extend to me that same courtesy. LPSG is one of the only places to which I've been where the women are ones I find interesting and bright, and where they are open and curious. I get along easiest with this type of woman. There are many of these in my life away from the computer. However, there are also definitely far, far more men in my life fitting this description.
It isn't either/or.
When I look at a man and I lust after him, it isn't inherently bad. If I did so and then justified paying him less because he was too sexy to be taken seriously professionally, then my objectification of him would be very harmful. That sort of behavior affects women a lot more than men, but I just can't react to that harmful result by judging all men who enjoy porn, especially not when I myself enjoy porn so much. The fact that I know that TheBF is capable of watching porn and being a feminist, and the fact that I myself can watch two people fucking in a video and still have the same attitudes I had before I began watching, that tells me that it's possible to enjoy porn and not be adversely affected by negative attitudes. I can't just judge anyone who loves porn and gets off on it, which all men do, and more and more women are doing.
Actually, I think that's part of what will help change some of those slut-shaming attitudes that we both hate! I don't think the solution is to avoid porn and to judge those who enjoy it. I don't think that will change slut-shaming attitudes.
The standard of whatever viewer is viewing the porn, and attitudes and tastes change over time. The prevalence and popularity of amateur porn is a really good sign! Real people having sex promotes the sexuality of real people's bodies.
It's obvious that people's tastes are widely varied, from men who enjoy BBW, to thin women with large tits, to petite athletic women with small bottoms, to pear shaped women, etc. I was pleased to see that on LPSG there are more men who enjoy porn involving women with realistic body shapes than I had assumed there would be.
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AlteredEgo
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HiddenLacey
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Friendship being the key word. Someone that is truely your friend would never try to make you uncomfortable repeatedly in a social situation.:wink: That falls under catty IMO.
Strangely enough I can say personally most people that I truely consider my friends have stepped up repeatedly to try to protect me in situations like you mentioned. That being said I would do the same for each of them. Though none of us need it.
Hi Patch
I'm not saying this to be cute or garner favour with anyone but I'm a man who believes that women should have every right/privilege that a man enjoys with reference to the workplace
(equal pay for work of equal value),sexuality
(not be labeled because she enjoys sex & has certain preferences) and especially in terms of reproductive technology (full & total control over her body;without the intrusion of the state).
I have to agree with Patch about porn. It is why I've stopped watching it. I love watching people fuck and I'd happily continue watching if I thought all parties were doing it for the love of fucking - but I've read enough about the 'adult entertainment industry' to know that isn't what I'm watching and it turns my stomach these days.
But I don't agree that men can't be feminists because they aren't women and have no female experiences. What makes you, Patch, think that my male friends who call themselves feminists watch porn? You don't even bother to ask do they. You make an assumption based on gender. That's a prejudice, whatever way you look at it.
And you are right that men do not feel objectified in the same way as women because the experiences are different. That doesn't mean all men are incapable of recognising the objectification of women, nor does it mean some men don't actively participate in making it stop, or trying to make it stop.
As for saying my analogy of white civil rights activists doesn't stand, I think it does. You're just seeing the male / female dichotomy as different because you want to. You see a male / female hierarchy among subjugated groups and you say that men, within their own groups still get to be top of the pecking order. Do you really think there aren't hierarchies among women? Of course there are. Like any subjugated group women split into dominant and subservient groups. Those vary from culture to culture but they exist all over. Certain female groups have dominion over certain male groups.
Without meaning to be funny, you are seeing the black / white issue in grey scale and the female / male issue in black and white. That perception is your choice. To steal from Leonard Cohen, I've been where you're hanging and I think I can see how you're pinned. So much so, in fact, that I was about one step away from officially changing my name to just my first name in protest of patrilineal naming convention and against the notion of being owned by a father or husband. I have since worked out that such gestures are essentially pointless.
But the situation is far more complex than you are allowing for. You won't get true equality of the sexes by insisting that all men confess to being rapists. Do you want equality, or is it that you want the shoe to be on the other foot for a while?
But I don't agree that men can't be feminists because they aren't women and have no female experiences. What makes you, Patch, think that my male friends who call themselves feminists watch porn? You don't even bother to ask do they. You make an assumption based on gender. That's a prejudice, whatever way you look at it.
And you are right that men do not feel objectified in the same way as women because the experiences are different. That doesn't mean all men are incapable of recognising the objectification of women, nor does it mean some men don't actively participate in making it stop, or trying to make it stop.
As for saying my analogy of white civil rights activists doesn't stand, I think it does. You're just seeing the male / female dichotomy as different because you want to. You see a male / female hierarchy among subjugated groups and you say that men, within their own groups still get to be top of the pecking order. Do you really think there aren't hierarchies among women? Of course there are. Like any subjugated group women split into dominant and subservient groups. Those vary from culture to culture but they exist all over. Certain female groups have dominion over certain male groups.
Without meaning to be funny, you are seeing the black / white issue in grey scale and the female / male issue in black and white. That perception is your choice. To steal from Leonard Cohen, I've been where you're hanging and I think I can see how you're pinned. So much so, in fact, that I was about one step away from officially changing my name to just my first name in protest of patrilineal naming convention and against the notion of being owned by a father or husband. I have since worked out that such gestures are essentially pointless.
But the situation is far more complex than you are allowing for. You won't get true equality of the sexes by insisting that all men confess to being rapists. Do you want equality, or is it that you want the shoe to be on the other foot for a while?
MB, I was only responding to Patchos assertation that a feminist watching porn is a contradiction in terms, which I disagree with. (Aside: I have no doubt that there is a lot of disgusting practices in the porn industry, but enjoyment of xtube, which is user uploaded amateur stuff cannot be counted as part of the "porn industry" itself can it?)
I am simply arguing that the objectification itself isn't the problem, but the attitude that a woman's primary value is her beauty or fuckability. All human beings with a sex drive objectify.
It is possible to view porn and not believe that a woman's primary value is her beauty or her fuckability, hence the judgment that men who enjoy porn cannot be feminists due to objectification is a false one.
We're all on the same side here, we just have slightly different viewpoints.
I am simply arguing that the objectification itself isn't the problem, but the attitude that a woman's primary value is her beauty or fuckability. All human beings with a sex drive objectify.
It is possible to view porn and not believe that a woman's primary value is her beauty or her fuckability, hence the judgment that men who enjoy porn cannot be feminists due to objectification is a false one.
We're all on the same side here, we just have slightly different viewpoints.
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