Would Jesus Cringe seeing what Christmas has turned into?

[luka82]

Christmas is a pagan holiday with a Christian veneer. QUOTE]
Yes, we don`t know the exact day of his birth.
But, I honestly do not believe that he was a mythical person, as some of u claim.
Cause most of the Gospels were created about half of century after his death, and they haven`t been created in the same part of the Roman empire.
I tend to believe that in those days it simply took a myth to devolop and spread more than 50 years.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Christmas is a pagan holiday with a Christian veneer. QUOTE]
Yes, we don`t know the exact day of his birth.
But, I honestly do not believe that he was a mythical person, as some of u claim.
Cause most of the Gospels were created about half of century after his death, and they haven`t been created in the same part of the Roman empire.
I tend to believe that in those days it simply took a myth to devolop and spread more than 50 years.

Well the canonical gospels were probably written much later than that none of them can be reliably dated to within the first century, the earliest possible date is the second century for maybe one of the canonical gospels, and the latest may have been written as late as the fourth century.

 

[2322]

OK I'm jewish so I think you all know how I feel about Jesus. That aside I respect the beliefs of others. We put up a tree and celebrate Hanukkah for me and Christmas for my partner who was raised Serbian Orthodox.
I have come to view the period between Thanksgiving and the New Year as The Winter Holiday's. I really truly enjoy the spirit of this holiday season. I like the special foods and music and celebrating with family and friends.
Isn't that what it is supposed to be about?

Actually, I don't. I've heard Jews say everything from, "Jesus is a revered prophet," to, "We don't think or talk about Jesus." I'm not sure if denomination has anything to do with it. I'm really pretty clueless on what the different branches of Judaism think about Jesus.

 

[luka82]

Well the canonical gospels were probably written much later than that none of them can be reliably dated to within the first century, the earliest possible date is the second century for maybe one of the canonical gospels, and the latest may have been written as late as the fourth century.

Are u sure about that?
well, islam is my area of expertise, but i thought it was half a century later that first canonical gospels were written?
Complete Gospels, Robert J. Miller editor, 1992-I think it says here that some parts of Gospel of Mark were created in the 1st century.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Are u sure about that?
well, islam is my area of expertise, but i thought it was half a century later that first canonical gospels were written?

I'm pretty sure Luka :tongue::wink::redface: I personally follow the school of thinking that none of the canonical Gospels can have been written in the form we know them any earlier than the third century and I certainly don't believe that any can have been written within the lifetime of anyone who actually knew Christ personally.

 

[luka82]

Well, hilaire i must have been taught wrong
P.S. I edited my previous post.

 

[nudeyorker]

Actually, I don't. I've heard Jews say everything from, "Jesus is a revered prophet," to, "We don't think or talk about Jesus." I'm not sure if denomination has anything to do with it. I'm really pretty clueless on what the different branches of Judaism think about Jesus.

In a nutshell the Messiah is yet to be born. I fall into the category of those who do not discuss the probability of the past existence of Jesus so as not to disparage the beliefs of others.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Complete Gospels, Robert J. Miller editor, 1992-I think it says here that some parts of Gospel of Mark were created in the 1st century.

You weren't taught wrong, there are a lot of competing theories on the subject, all with varying levels of credibility. Millers theory is interesting, and it may be that all of the canonical gospels contain fragments of earlier documents which may have been written within the lifetime of the first followers of Jesus, but how much of this material they contain if any is highly debatable and no theory on that matter is as yet convincing. :redface::wink::tongue:

 

[luka82]

I agree.
I`m just saying that it makes perfect sense that Jesus was a historical figure, not a myth

 

[Bbucko]

Christmas is entirely what you make of it.The whingers will whinge and everyone else will enjoy it.The religious aspect aside,I personally LOVE the fact that for over a week the whole contry (UK) practically shuts down for a week and people get to spend time with loved ones.I think that Jesus would approve of that.....Oh,and we can all have a good laugh at 'pagans' doing their absurd mid-winter nonsense!!

What with their crazy Christmas trees, Santa Claus and winter solstice dates: absurd nonsense!

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

I agree.
I`m just saying that it makes perfect sense that Jesus was a historical figure, not a myth

Well no, all the best evidence and most credible scholarship suggests that in fact the Jesus described in the canonical Gospels did not exist and that in fact Christ is probably an amalgam of several different men with roughly similar beliefs. There were an awful lot of messianic prophets and holy men in Judea at that time and they all had similar ideas, it's only natural in an environment where most of their teachings would have been transmitted by word of mouth at first that they would have easily become confused with each other. Ultimately it is entirely unclear that any single candidate is the most clear cut inspiration for the canonical gospel's Jesus. Therefore we cannot say with anyn certainty that it is even likely that Christ existed, merely that there were many men who might have contributed to the myth of Christ.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Martin Luther and his acolyte John Calvin.

A prosperous middle class needs to feel good about accumulating wealth so they don't feel they have to give it all away. That whole rich man camel eye of a needle thing can be very unsettling if it isn't explained away somehow.

I didn't realize that John Calvin was the father of present-day American christian fundamentalism. I thought it was a much later development, like late nineteenth century.

 

[D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse]

Historicity: It's very likely that Jesus was an historical figure, probably baptized by John the Baptist and probably crucified (a common method of capital punishment) on the orders of Pontius Pilate on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire.

Whatever the life, if Jesus did in fact live, he was a human mammal descended from the ocean, just like the rest of us. The mother was not a virgin. The Virgin Birth, the walking on water, the wine to water and multiplying foods, the people raised from the dead, the bodily ascension, and the Second Coming and "Rapture" are all myths, embellishments, just as all deities are garnished with miracles and superpowers, to impress the credulous.

Today, we have UFO sightings; statues of saints or virgins said to weep; faith healings; the "miracles" of Mother Teresa; vials of Elvis sweat...

 

[2hung4u]

I don't know about jesus, but Santa would probably love what Christmas has become.

 

[superbot]

What with their crazy Christmas trees, Santa Claus and winter solstice dates: absurd nonsense!

German inventions to make Christmas fun.Not half as much fun as watching pagans worshipping rivers!!!!...How we laughed and laughed!!

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

I tend to think that Jesus did exist. He's mentioned outside of the Bible a few times by contemporary historians. Whether he's a prophet or messiah or simply a wise man or an uppity carpenter with radical ideas depends upon your faith.

Personally, I think he'd be shocked that anyone was celebrating his birthday to begin with and then terribly sad that so many have misunderstood the message which is still, despite great effort to the contrary, ever so clearly beneath all the commercial dreck. Ultimately, I think he'd be compassionate toward those who don't get it:

Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty. But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways. -Thomas 28​

Thomas may not be Q but it's likely damned close.

Why do you believe that the Q exists? Why are you using a Coptic codex to cite Jesus, rather than a canonical book?

I'm not accusing you of anything... I'm just curious.

 

[mitchymo]

I think in the 21st century he would be happy enough accepting we know who he is.

 

[midlifebear]

Christmas is a pagan holiday with a Christian veneer. I thought everybody knew that.

I did! I knew that! But . . . Jesus who? Jesus Carranza de la Ocepta or Jesus Xavier Garcia de Benitez, or Jesus Barraga de la Somosa, or Jesus Joél Herrera de la Godino, or Jesus Bello Fernandez . . . and these are just a few of the ones I know within two blocks of me in Oaxaca.

Again, specificity is everything.

P.S. You do know that Jesus is a Mexican, no? :smile: [bright shiny thing here]

 

[mitchymo]

I personally LOVE the fact that for over a week the whole contry (UK) practically shuts down for a week and people get to spend time with loved ones.

You're one of the lucky ones, i've got three days off one of which is my regular day off otherwise it would just be 2 days. My longest shift of the year is 11.5 hours on xmas eve too.

 

[798686]

Hilaire - What about John? I thought he wrote his books on the island of Patmos in the late 90s ad? Luke also seems a fairly good historian in both his Gospel account and the book of Acts (describing contemporary events and people accurately). I also heard that the 4 gospels didn't contain concepts that had emerged in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, unlike many of the apochryphal writings.

Not arguing with you as such - just would like ur info on these things. I also thought that the New Testament was probably put together by John in its current format - with Peter having gathered some of it together earlier (along with Paul's letters).

Willtom - Plus, I don't think all the stuff about Mary having been immaculately conceived (and remained a virgin) is true either - especially since the Bible doesn't even indicate it.