WSJ-an alternate perspective.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by B_spiker067, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    "This fearmongering may be good politics, but it is bad history and bad economics. It is bad history because our current economic woes don't come close to those of the 1930s. At worst, a comparison to the 1981-82 recession might be appropriate. Consider the job losses that Mr. Obama always cites. In the last year, the U.S. economy shed 3.4 million jobs. That's a grim statistic for sure, but represents just 2.2% of the labor force. From November 1981 to October 1982, 2.4 million jobs were lost -- fewer in number than today, but the labor force was smaller. So 1981-82 job losses totaled 2.2% of the labor force, the same as now."

    link: Bradley Schiller Says Barack Obama Should Stop Comparing Our Financial Crisis With the Great Depression - WSJ.com

    It's bad, but enough with the manipulation propaganda already.
     
  2. midlifebear

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    OK, now let's see if I understand this correctly. It's bad for Obama to make the comparison between the current financial crisis and that which began in 1929, but it was perfectly OK for Bush and members of his administration to make the same comparisons before Obama became President?

    Oh, I get it. Only Bushites are correct and really know what the Hell is going on. The rest of us poor fuckers are just grist for the mill. I see. It's much clearer now.
     
  3. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

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    Indeed

    and since his stimulus plan will not have the intended effect, but will instead further worsen things, I wonder what is his real motivation?
     
  4. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    I think that when we dialog you should work under the operational assumption that I am NOT a Bush fan and then you might actually start to make some points.
     
  5. midlifebear

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    Spiker, dude! I don't assume you are a Bush fan. I was commenting on what Bradley Schiller claims in the article. By the way, I know Bradley Schiller. He's not exactly the brightest bulb on the Washoe Campus.
     
    #5 midlifebear, Feb 16, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  6. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Where was Bradley Schiller when our government shoved the threat of terrorism down our throats every hour on the hour? Or when the "gay agenda" was to tear down the sanctity of marriage for that brief spell in 2004? But I digress... even if our financial situation isn't as bad as the Great Depression, it could certainly become that if we don't take steps now to prevent it. This isn't fearmongering, it's common sense. Everyday, jobs are being lost and our dollar & stock market continues to struggle. This isn't like the "Terror Meters" where it's told using very iffy information that something "might" happen. This financial collapse is something that everyone can see and it's going on right now.

    The same way our previous administration wanted us to look out for anyone named Mohammed because they could have a dirt bomb in their Fendi Bags, our current administration is actually expressing issues regarding a REAL crisis that affects us everyday. I mean, that is if you think your bank account, financial assets and future stability is more important than terrorism and gay marriage.
     
  7. Guy-jin

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    If this is the politics of fear, what the hell was all that WMD and yellow cake shit Bush shoveled at us? The politics of nightmares?
     
  8. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    You should really try to read past the Bush v. Obama angle and read the numbers.

    BTW, I said it long ago. Global Warming is the same lie that WMD's were. Apparently, fear of depression is the new fodder for retard consumption. The bad thing in this case is that Obama is working a self-fulfilling prophesy lie because the economy is so very dependent on psychology.
     
  9. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Still not impressed dude.:rolleyes:
     
  10. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    I did a search on the article to find Bush in there, and guess what? Not once was Bush mentioned. Funny, huh?

    Of course unless you were talking about Jeb Bush, then he was mentioned twice.
     
  11. transformer_99

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    No offense intended but the definition of unemployed has changed since the early 1980's in how the statistic is computed and tracked. What about the 8.25 million that were unemployed during "W-1" ? I was one of those casualties and it sucked.

    Rant On,

    This is where it really hits home and gets personal for me. So understand where I come from when I lay into your flippant comments/remarks discounting what not being able to earn a living is about. Ever know what it's like to lose your job, be unemployed for about 5 months and then watch 2 planes slam into the WTC and effectively crush the rest of the hope you had for becomming employed again crumble and go up in a billow of dust & smoke in the streets of NYC ? Bush had a job for us, it was to go fight that war in Iraq.

    And if the S&L Crisis during his father's administration wasn't proof of what Wall Street could do devoid of ethics and that "W" was bad for this nation, the son promoted the banking and mortgage crisis at every opportunity. It's no coincidence this nation is $ 1.5+ trillion into bailouts & economic stimulus packages and facing bleaker times in the coming year or two (or maybe even more). Mistakes are made to be learned from, we didn't, 50-52 % of this nation found a way to repeat the same mistakes of his father by letting the son get his hand at 8 years to ruin a nation. And boy did he make good on that time !

    If you don't think the unemployment is going to be that bad, why don't you be the first to go sit on the sidelines and then wait for a lifeline to be thrown your way ? Then you can give us a firsthand account of how wonderful it is ? I went thru it twice with Bush's as Presidents. I've done my time in that regard, paid my dues that way and believe me, it's no fun. I had to rebuild my life after those Bush administrations. Everything I saved and worked hard for during Clinton's administrations, this community sucked me dry of. It's one thing to go thru a hurricane like Andrew or Katrina and know there was nothing that could've been done to prevent it because it was an act of God, a natural disaster. But to have to sit thru it and know that it was a man-made thing and the one's responsible for it was getting paid $ 400K/year or his buddies got sweetheart, no bid contracts and even bailouts, then awarded/rewarded themselves with $ 18+ billion in bonuses really makes you ill. There's a lot more money moving around than anyone really realizes and for a community to tighten it's belt and and tell you that you can't earn a living because it's not profitable enough for others for you to have a job/work will make you view your neighbors/fellow Americans in a totally different light. Bin Laden and Al Qaeda might be horrible terrorists, but the folks on Wall Street over the last 8 years makes anything they did seem like a minor inconvenience. I've had more than my share of the Bush clan in my lifetime, more than any one human being should ever have to endure. I survived it and I'll be damned if this nation ever has another Bush in the White House, if my vote has anything to say about it.

    And just to give you a little perspective on this. When have you ever witnessed in your lifetime a new administration change that started off facing an $ 800 billion dollar bailout and $ 800+ billion economic stimulus package at ground zero on Day 1 ? When was said administration change marked by States like California and Kansas withholding tax returns/refunds because they are broke ? Yeah, it's not that bad if you're sitting at your ranch in Crawford , TX getting a Presidential pension and the biggest challenge of your day is getting on a mountain bike and riding the trails ? Or if you're collecting a VP pension and the toughest challenge you'll face that day is whether you're going to shoot one of your fellow hunters in the chest and face with birdshot ? Because that's what the last 8 years have sold your future for. And they don't give a damn how your life turns out during and after their time, just how they spend the rest of theirs. That crew won't lose any sleep worrying about if you can ever put a roof over your head, clothes on your back or food in your stomach, much more any family you currently have started. We've already seen the family in California, the one where both parents lost their jobs, kill their children and then turn the gun on themselves. That's reality for you, that's not an Ivy League educated "C" student, that can't speak proper English, yucking it up with his Dad's friends at $ 2,000 a plate dinners. The stakes were too high, we all should enjoy life, but not to the excess these people have at the expense of too many others. And I will take exception everytime when someone tries to diminish the unnecessary suffering all of us are going thru. Sorry for being this hard on you in this rebuttal, but trust me, there'll be a day when you retire too, you don't get any time back and what you don't have or get today and over the duration of your working years, you won't have or get that day either. Only it won't be so trivial then. Priced out of home ownership, you think paying rent is tough in this economy, it won't be easier that day living off of whatever fixed income they've watered Social Security down to. Today you're looking at $ 1,200 rents, maybe more in some places, how long do you think what you saved for retirement will last ? Healthcare ? what do you think that'll be down the road ? We all face the possibility of outliving our retirement savings and the cost of living far exceeding the retirement benefits. Still think there's a moment to take the next few years off in a recession to sort out what Bush is costing you in terms of earnings today ? Sure we all can ebay items for extra cash, but what if your health is prohibitive of being able to do that ? Just food for thought ?

    Rant Off.
     
    #11 transformer_99, Feb 16, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
  12. SilverTrain

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    Here's a tip:

    Obama is expressing concern that:

    the nation faces the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression,

    because

    all the economists are expressing concern that:

    the nation faces the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.
     
  13. Guy-jin

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    Oh lord. Not this "global warming is a lie" garbage again.
     
  14. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    I think that's a very good point.
    The belief that big problems are here, are worsening, and will need almost a miracle for their alleviation puts a huge squeeze on the willingness to spend. And lack of consumption is almost the definition of a withering economic stall.
    Wasn't unemployment at one point during the Great Depression four times worse than it is now?
    Wasn't the reduction in GDP several times greater?


    All the economists?
    By no means.
    Many are saying we should put a little in our wine.
    We should see the current financial difficulties in a true perspective.
    At this point, they don't approach the problems of the 1930s.
    The recession of the early Reagan years really is a better comparison for what we're going through.
     
  15. SilverTrain

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    Yeah, there are always going to be a few with opposing viewpoints. But the level of consensus is so high as to be startling. Quibbling over whether it's "all" or "almost all" or "97%", or "99.7 percent of non-shill, non-flag-waving-political-partisan economists" is a debate one could engage in. But really, come on.

    And I would definitely like to hear more about the argument that the current conditions are analagous to the early 1980's. Especially with regard to the conditions precedent and/or causes of 1980's recession as compared to the conditions precedent and/or causes of the current crisis.

    But let's not get distracted. That wasn't anyone's intent was it? :rolleyes: The main and important point is that an incredible percentage of economists and financial analysts are gravely concerned about the current state of the US (and World) economy, the prospects for the future, and what measures ought to be taken to bring things back on to a sunnier course.

    Why would the financial experts be doing a Chicken Little? Would what their endgame be?

    This isn't fearmongering. It's called being straightforward and honest. I realize it's been a long time, and people aren't used to it.
     
  16. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    It wasn't my impression than anything like 97 percent, much less 99.7 percent, believe we are in conditions truly comparable to the 1930s.
    On this point there needn't be a debate ... there should be simple headcounting of economists.
    I wonder if someone has done it.
     
  17. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Are these the same economists who DIDN'T warn us on national television about the shit hitting the fan BEFORE the shit hit the fan? Are these the same economists who lost their shirts and shoes in the stock market because they didn't see this coming. Yeah, I hear all these economists are sitting on little piles of gold they bought before all the rest of us got screwed.

    Hahahaha.

    Same kind of people who peddle global warming and WMD's (or at least the same mentality).
     
  18. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    Geez, I never would have thought that you were one of those Bush v. Obama types. Relentless tripe. :rolleyes:
     
  19. SilverTrain

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    So, yeah, we could digress into debating precisely how many economists agree that this is the worst economic crisis since the Depression.

    Or we could instead focus on solutions to what is indisputably a massive economic crisis.
     
  20. B_spiker067

    B_spiker067 New Member

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    One more time. The Republicans are 60% to blame and the Dems are 40% to blame for this economy. Congress is 100% to blame; they let themselves be bought off by business interests. To think otherwise will keep getting you fleeced. Good luck with that world view.
     
    #20 B_spiker067, Feb 16, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2009
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