WTF! Female Circumcision, Rite of Passage Or Violation of Rights?

Drifterwood

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before you start to grump.. check my post history.. i am 100% against male RIC. supporter of RIC being outlawed. and don't for one second believe religion/culture is a justifiable excuse to harm children.

And so I introduce the thoughts of a female professor of theological history and you freak on me - that makes sense :rolleyes:.

PS - How many times are you going to edit your posts?
 
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NotSoDumb_Blonde

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With the exception of where the clitoris is also removed, I see no difference between FGM and male circumcision and indeed the arguments for it. Mothers and Grandmothers are almost exclusively responsible for continuing the practice.

Did you seriously just write this? FGM makes it sound so ....distant. It's FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION. MUTILATION. That word, right there, should be in indicator of what is really going on. Circumcision is no where near what mutilation is.

mutilation:

1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts: Vandals mutilated the painting.
2.
to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.

More on what Female Genital Mutilation:

Female Genital Mutilation

Seriously, I'm pretty in awe of how many people don't understand what this is and how horrifying it is for a girl.
 

MickeyLee

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And so I introduce the thoughts of a female professor of theological history and you freak on me - that makes sense :rolleyes:.

PS - How many times are you going to edit your posts?

you quoted me, i returned my post to original content. :smile:

is your continued "make this thread about men" flouncing what pissed me off, Mr. Drifterwood.

female professor.. lots of women piss me off.
 

Drifterwood

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Did you seriously just write this? FGM makes it sound so ....distant. It's FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION. MUTILATION. That word, right there, should be in indicator of what is really going on. Circumcision is no where near what mutilation is.

mutilation:

1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts: Vandals mutilated the painting.
2.
to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.

More on what Female Genital Mutilation:

Female Genital Mutilation

Seriously, I'm pretty in awe of how many people don't understand what this is and how horrifying it is for a girl.

Yes I did. I think it is more that you underestimate male circumcision because your culture has made this so "normal" than that I underestimate FGM (with the exception of the removal of the clitoris relative to male mutilation).

FYI I have been actively involved with groups that have campaigned against FGM since I was a student and in that time it has mostly been banned in western countries. It wasn't when I was a kid. What did you do?

I am not in any campigning group agains male circumcision. I just happen to agree with Karen Armstrong that it's roots are to be found in the same socio-cultural practices.
 

NotSoDumb_Blonde

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Yes I did. I think it is more that you underestimate male circumcision because your culture has made this so "normal" than that I underestimate FGM (with the exception of the removal of the clitoris relative to male mutilation).

FYI I have been actively involved with groups that have campaigned against FGM since I was a student and in that time it has mostly been banned in western countries. It wasn't when I was a kid. What did you do?

I am not in any campigning group agains male circumcision. I just happen to agree with Karen Armstrong that it's roots are to be found in the same socio-cultural practices.

Well be careful what kind of soap box you get on. Don't assume other people on here are stupid and don't do anything with their lives. I've been to Africa. So, yeah, I've done a great deal to get women and female children out from under the knife. You're simply sounding arrogant, and worse, you're taking the topic away from what is happening -- right now -- to girls.

If you want to discuss MALE circumcision and Armstrong's thesis on it, do it in your own thread. Not here. There are tons of interesting theories on it, and more opinions, but do it elsewhere. It's an important discussion, but not THIS discussion. That's what Mickey is so pissed off about. (er, I think, Mickey!) I know I am. I'm shocked that you would belittle what is happening to a group of people, simply to move the topic to something you think is more interesting/ important. And don't use acronyms for such a vile disgusting mutilation of individuals human rights. :mad:
 

aninnymouse

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OK, Drifter, Let's talk about the incidents of Female Genital Mutilation. From the data that's out there, there are four types, Three of which usually include some sort of clitoris removal. Two always involve some sort of clitoris removal. Also, the most popular types include clitoris removal.

Sadly, it seems that the data is sketchy on the percentage of girls that are mutilated, and the types of mutilation done.

Still, "Infibulation" which is the removal of the labia, is no picnic either.

What's even grosser is the thought process behind it.

As said, although I am against Routine Circumcision; I understand the thought processes behind it, both the ones which are solid,(cleanliness, disease prevention) and the ones which are not so solid. (to decrease pleasure and masturbation, cosmetic reasons, fitting in, etc.)

The thought process behind Female Genital Mutilation is not the same. It's about property and control. Just because a child is born Female, then, they are supposed to be property, and controlled at all cost. Simply becaus she has the ability to produce a child.

They cut it off and sew it up, then let the potential suitors see it as proof that she's a pure woman.

The legs are tied together, so then that the wound can heal. a small stick is put in to be able to pass fluids.

That's all the healing they get.

Then, weeks, months, unknown later, she's married, property, and he has the right to do whatever with her. His first test is that he can open her up. If he can, fine, and I'd bet it's quite frequent that they have sex, have babies. IF he can't.....it can get ugly. Talk about cutting it open with a knife to get in.

Yeah, really see the term "circucision" as being appropreate here.

/sarcasm off.
 

Phil Ayesho

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With the exception of where the clitoris is also removed, I see no difference between FGM and male circumcision and indeed the arguments for it. Mothers and Grandmothers are almost exclusively responsible for continuing the practice.



This is the truth. Women in these cultures raise men to believe that only women with the procedure are 'chaste' enough to be worthy of marriage.

Women are also the primary promoters of furthering this practice.

The psychology behind it has more to do with cultures that allow multiple wives, or in which men almost constantly have one or more mistresses.
Young Women's ability to enjoy sex represents a threat to the position and prestige of older wives. And, to a certain extent, long time mistresses.

These kinds of practices are meant to make young women less interested in sex and less likely to use their sexuality to dominate the interests of men.

It is most often a means to maintain what little power women in these societies have within their relationships and family structures.
 

FRE

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With the exception of where the clitoris is also removed, I see no difference between FGM and male circumcision and indeed the arguments for it. Mothers and Grandmothers are almost exclusively responsible for continuing the practice.

Mothers and grandmothers are only partially responsible for continuing the practice. Men have to accept much of the responsibility.

The fact is that in some cultures, a man will not marry a woman who has not been mutilated. Also in those same countries, it is unthinkable for a woman to remain single. She would be unable to support herself and without a man to protect her, she would be considered fair game by any man who wants sex. So, even if mothers and grandmothers don't approve of FGM, they feel that they must have it done to their girls for the welfare of the girls.

In one form of FGM (there are several forms), the girl is sewn up so that sex is impossible. In some cases, her husband cuts her open on the wedding night; in other cases, someone does it for him. If he will be away for a while, he may have her sewn up again to ensure that no one else can have sex with her.

In a sense, it's similar to the foot binding that went on in China for centuries; in the upper classes, a man would not marry a woman with unbound feet.
 

Mumzi

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If you're interested, there's lots to learn.

Female Genital Mutilation

In one of these there is instructions for the midwife about opening up the vagina
for delivery. One explains that if the finger is too large, then a closed forceps
can be used to insert, open and then pull the skin in order to cut it.
This is for a woman about to deliver a baby.
Makes you wonder. I believe this one has a diagram of the finished procedure.
Tho there are a few.
------

FGM National Clinical Group - FGM Treatment

Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) | Female Circumcision | Women and Children | Edna Adan University Hospital, Somaliland, East Africa

Female genital mutilation - Royal College of Midwives

The Female Genital Mutilation / Cutting (FGM/C) News Blog

Join Us - 28 Too Many - anti-FGM charity - Female Genital Mutilation - Ann-Marie Wilson
Consider the book ' desert flower '


You can do so much by just learning about the procedure and from there, you can educate others. Although its a difficult subject to talk about and many people don't want to discuss it because of that.
 

Drifterwood

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your attitude sucks sweaty donkey balls at the moment.

The anthropological theory of relative male expendability has been out there for a long time and simply reflects the biological reality that a society can afford to lose a high amount of men and survive, whilst it can't if it loses a high proportion of women and children.

I didn't realise that I was saying anything particularly objectionable.

Back to topic, the OP needs to catch up on an outrage that was internationally decalred a violation of human rights in 1993.