WTF! Female Circumcision, Rite of Passage Or Violation of Rights?

aninnymouse

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The anthropological theory of relative male expendability has been out there for a long time and simply reflects the biological reality that a society can afford to lose a high amount of men and survive, whilst it can't if it loses a high proportion of women and children.

I didn't realise that I was saying anything particularly objectionable.

Back to topic, the OP needs to catch up on an outrage that was internationally decalred a violation of human rights in 1993.

Perhaps; but what does the theory of the expendable male have to do with the topic of this thread, and the tone of LaFever's OP? It was expressing outrage that this exists, and is even considered "Normal" and "Proper" for over 80% of women in certain cultures. Who knows, maybe this is the first he's heard of it, and was simply expressing HIS outrage about it.


In so many ways, the problem with this is the fact that so many of these cultures are taking dim views of people. Viewing people as Property and means to an end. In a very twisted way, it shows a value of women.....As goods. "Yeah, gotta have those baby makers 'Pure.' Never mind if one bleeds to death, she can be replaced. The world is full of death anyways." :puke:

It's that type of devaluation of human life that perpetuates so much of the mess in the world today.
 

hsarge

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If you are not viscerally sickened by this subject, you are sexist. If you try to clinically evaluate this, you are insensitive. We cannot save all the world's women from the scourge of slavery, but we can at least protest against it.
 

Drifterwood

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Perhaps; but what does the theory of the expendable male have to do with the topic of this thread?

Nothing. You have to have read my comment within the context of my reply to 6inchcock's post and my subsequent posts with Dolf.

If you read the rest of the wiki article yoou quoted to me before, you will see that the Brits first got in a shitstorm over this in Kenya from the 1930's. They were accused of colonial imperialist behaviour for trying to stop and judge local customs. When the Brits left, local doctors took up the fight and it then became a universal human and women' rights issue from the seventies. It was banned in and against any UK citizen in 1985 and, as I have said, made a global violation of human rights in 1993. Subsequently the campaign has been one of zero tolerance, but customs are really difficult to stop even when they seem to everyone else so completly unacceptable. I am interested also in this phenomenon in wider contexts, but I honestly have nowish to hijack the thread.
 

FRE

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If you are not viscerally sickened by this subject, you are sexist. If you try to clinically evaluate this, you are insensitive. We cannot save all the world's women from the scourge of slavery, but we can at least protest against it.

Sometimes a careful clinical evaluation is necessary to understand a problem adequately so as to be better able to take effective action.

Even though there has been considerable publicity about this for many years and most people should already be aware of it, periodic reminders are still a good idea.
 

VernalTiger

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It's an issue that will become more prevalent in Western cultures in the very near future. I have midwife friends in public hospitals here in Australia, and they are seeing more women from African countries who have undergone this procedure, as the refugee and migrant populations grow.

On the other side of the spectrum, Western doctors have been forced to consider the possibility of a Western 'ritualised' version of FGM, in an effort to stop backyard mutilations, or of female children being taken back to their countries of origin for the 'procedure'. Thankfully the Royal Australian College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists voted against the idea.
Doctors consider 'less severe' female circumcision
 

hsarge

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If you can be clinical about the 'holocaust', the Khymer Rouge, Bosnia, Rwanda, the 'rape' of China by the Japanese, My Lai, and this disgusting ritual, then you have become detached from the fact that these are not numbers on a page but individuals with feelings, hopes, and emotions just like yourself. Put yourself in their situation and see if you are still clinical.
 

molotovmuffin

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The anthropological theory of relative male expendability has been out there for a long time and simply reflects the biological reality that a society can afford to lose a high amount of men and survive, whilst it can't if it loses a high proportion of women and children.

I didn't realise that I was saying anything particularly objectionable.

Back to topic, the OP needs to catch up on an outrage that was internationally decalred a violation of human rights in 1993.

You do know that there is a disproportional amount of male vs females in many areas of the world, don't you? Female fetuses are being abroted in China, India, Korea and many other Asia countries. Female children are not valued as much as males. So who are expendable? Clearly, it's not the males.:mad:
 

FRE

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If you can be clinical about the 'holocaust', the Khymer Rouge, Bosnia, Rwanda, the 'rape' of China by the Japanese, My Lai, and this disgusting ritual, then you have become detached from the fact that these are not numbers on a page but individuals with feelings, hopes, and emotions just like yourself. Put yourself in their situation and see if you are still clinical.

A certain degree of detachment is necessary to deal with the problem adequately and find ways to halt the practice. Excessive emotionalism reduces the ability to take effective action.

If you required a delicate surgical procedure to save your life, would you want a surgeon who was crying and so upset that he could not perform effectively? It is incorrect to assume that people who are able to think clearly, clinically, and unemotionally are uncaring. Becoming hysterical is counter productive and does not solve problems.
 

hsarge

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Apples and oranges. Surgery and mutilation. You don't esoterically discuss the fine points of murder and mutilation. You stop it!
 
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If you can be clinical about the 'holocaust', the Khymer Rouge, Bosnia, Rwanda, the 'rape' of China by the Japanese, My Lai, and this disgusting ritual, then you have become detached from the fact that these are not numbers on a page but individuals with feelings, hopes, and emotions just like yourself. Put yourself in their situation and see if you are still clinical.

Absolutely.
 

FRE

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsarge
If you can be clinical about the 'holocaust', the Khymer Rouge, Bosnia, Rwanda, the 'rape' of China by the Japanese, My Lai, and this disgusting ritual, then you have become detached from the fact that these are not numbers on a page but individuals with feelings, hopes, and emotions just like yourself. Put yourself in their situation and see if you are still clinical.

Absolutely.

This is becoming ridiculous.

One does not solve problems by tearing out one's hair and jumping up and down shouting, "Stop! Stop! Stop!" That accomplishes exactly nothing and is likely to distract from putting in the effort to understand the problem fully to make it possible to find effective solutions. What is needed is cool-headed thinking rather than useless emotion. Then, the problem can be more effectively addressed and stopped.

There is a precedent from China. For centuries, women had their feet bound. To understand how horrible the practice was, one has to understand what the procedure was. A young girl's feet would be broken so that the forward part of the foot would be folded under, making the feet appear small and, to twisted minds, beautiful and dainty. Women with bound feet experienced no end of trouble with them. There was constant pain and the only way they could walk was to balance on their heals (try it to see how awkward it is); even then, they could not walk very far. It was impossible to wash the feet properly, so they always stank and there was a constant risk of infection. Parents had it done to their daughters to increase the likelihood that the daughters would have a good marriage. The practice gradually faded out as those objecting to it got men to agree never to marry a woman with bound feet. The communists finally put an end to the practice.

The most effective way to end FGM may not be to make it illegal, although that should also be done. Getting men to agree not to marry women who have been mutilated would go a long way to ending the practice, and that may be the most effective way to do it. But again, tearing out one's hair and screaming "Stop! Stop! Stop!" is unlikely to be effective.

During the Middle Ages, there were professional beggars; the profession was inherited, like other professions. To enhance the ability of their children to beg, beggars would intentionally cripple them. Until past the middle 1800's, in Italy, some parents had their boys castrated while young hoping that that would enable them to earn a good living by singing. That was successful for only a very few of them; the rest had their lives damaged with no compensating benefits.

So mutilating children is nothing new and it has always been despicable. But it is senseless to insist that people who are not exceedingly emotional about it are heartless. There are many evils in the world. We should work to end them as effectively as possible and not be obsessed with the emotional state of those who recognize evil as evil. In any case it is inappropriate to tell others what emotions they should experience.
 
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aninnymouse

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*notes differnce between being objective about something whilst still being disgusted and distrubed by it, and being overly emotional and jumping up and down about it*

Sometimes the only way you can stop a disturbing and sometimes disgusting practice is to be objective about it and SMARTLY make it as unattractive to the people as possible, without pissing on their value system, as disturbing as we may find it.
 

LaFemme

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Personally, in order for me to act upon something, I need to feel emotional about it. To be honest, there are issues where I sometimes feel I am jumping up and down about them - but I am able to turn that emotional energy into action. And in general, when I draw others to my cause, I draw them in by their hearts. I do have facts to back it up, but usually it's my passion that lights a fire.

But maybe that's just me. Maybe the dispassionate, objective approach is more effective.
 

FRE

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*notes differnce between being objective about something whilst still being disgusted and distrubed by it, and being overly emotional and jumping up and down about it*

Sometimes the only way you can stop a disturbing and sometimes disgusting practice is to be objective about it and SMARTLY make it as unattractive to the people as possible, without pissing on their value system, as disturbing as we may find it.

That accurately expresses my position.
 

FRE

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Personally, in order for me to act upon something, I need to feel emotional about it. To be honest, there are issues where I sometimes feel I am jumping up and down about them - but I am able to turn that emotional energy into action. And in general, when I draw others to my cause, I draw them in by their hearts. I do have facts to back it up, but usually it's my passion that lights a fire.

But maybe that's just me. Maybe the dispassionate, objective approach is more effective.

There is nothing wrong with that approach. I guess that what I objected to was the assumption that everyone should react the same way and that there was necessarily something wrong with people who don't jump up and down and scream. Jumping up and down and screaming may be OK if one eventually cools off enough to be effective. In any case, effectiveness, at some point, does require a careful and objective analysis of the problem prior to finding solutions.

Obviously FGM IS horrible and action should be taken to prevent it. Action should also be taken to mitigate the suffering of women for whom it is to late to prevent FGM. At least there is now wide-spread knowledge of the problem, and that is a first step.
 

Bangbro

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Hey ,some people jump.... some scream! some just stand there? some do!!! some think and whisper;) shhhhhh and listen haaaaaaaaaaaaaa