WTF! Female Circumcision, Rite of Passage Or Violation of Rights?

hsarge

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Well its wonderful to study all the intricacies of foot binding that were used to justify the ' cultural' dynamics. But the actuality was to break feet so women were not mobile. You may wish to understand the history of antisemitsm in Europe, but in reality the nazis were murderers. You may wish to form a committee to understand the rationalizations of female genital 'puberty surgery', but it is mutilation. In their society, I may not be able to prevent it. In my society, I don't want to hear the 'rationale'; I want it outlawed and the facilitators imprisoned.
 

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People seem to struggle understanding that the removal of the ENTIRE clitoris is synonymous with the words Female Circumcision because it's not very common for the hood only to be moved and still leave an intact clitoral head (nerve bundle). So we can mince words and say "It's only the equivalent of the foreskin" when truly most times it's not just about removing the HOOD.

The clitoris is made up of hood parts and glans parts and most cultures that lop off the clitoral hood are also sure to get rid of ANY remainance of the clitoral nerves that are on the exterior of the body. Think of your penis as a gigantic clitoris and the clitoris as a miniature penis. They are embryologically NO different.
 

luka82

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I couldn`t be arsed to go threw the whole thread. But here is what I KNOW and what I THINK!
Not only does the FEMALE MUTILATION represent the removal of clitoris, it often represents the removal of OTHER HEALTHY female reproductive organs. There are many factors why it`s done, and they can all be called by one name -MISOGYNY!
Women shouldn`t enjoy sex, women are dirty if they have their clit, women can`t give birth to male children, women are more prone to be obsessed by the devil with their clit intact, women can become LESBIANS with they clitoris, they won`t get married....There are many, many more. it has nothing to to with religion, but unfortunatelly many religious groups (not only muslim) have adopted that cruel tradition.
Unfortunately, it`s done to women by other women. But the idea, thousands of years old, was MEN`s!
 

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I believe men were more concerned a woman would have a sex drive she'd let run wild prior to marriage or while their particular man was away. It was manfear. Always has been related to man fear and always will be. Women who want to get the male respect in the tribes the most will carry out the nasty duties. Sometimes it is done out of wanting male respect and sometimes it's going to be done out of respect to keep your own life. That's a real problem. How do you fix that sort of mind set is the real issue. How do you change something in the heads of those who think that way. Absurd practices can only be stopped with absurd measures. What those measures should be. I am not one to say.
 
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FRE

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Well its wonderful to study all the intricacies of foot binding that were used to justify the ' cultural' dynamics. But the actuality was to break feet so women were not mobile. You may wish to understand the history of antisemitsm in Europe, but in reality the nazis were murderers. You may wish to form a committee to understand the rationalizations of female genital 'puberty surgery', but it is mutilation. In their society, I may not be able to prevent it. In my society, I don't want to hear the 'rationale'; I want it outlawed and the facilitators imprisoned.

Well, yes, but in the countries where FGM occurs, attitudes are such that arresting the perpetuators is probably impractical. Laws work only when they are supported by the populace. So probably the only way to end the practice is to change the social attitudes which support the practice.

In the countries to which people who support FGM migrate, the situation is different. There the law can be more effective, although probably less than 100% effective. If people who support FGM know that they will have to deal with the law if they mutilate anyone or arrange for anyone to be mutilated, they will be less likely to do it. But still that is not foolproof. They could send a girl back to Africa and when she returns mutilated, they could claim that it was unexpected and done without their approval. And, if the parents were arrested for having a daughter mutilated, who would take care of the daughter?

Unfortunately, some problems do not have simple solutions. Sometimes we have to struggle with problems for a long time before they are solved. Remember we are dealing with a very different culture and it is a culture that embraces some attitudes and practices which are incompatible with civilization, at least in the opinion of most of us.

In addition to passing laws in countries to which people who support FGM migrate, more must be done. Those people could be required to attend classes which explain clearly why the practice is unacceptable. The classes could be addressed by people from those countries who oppose FGM. Cases could be presented in which girls have died of infection following the "procedure", and also cases in which women have died in childbirth because of it. It may be possible to force people to attend such classes by requiring deportation unless they do attend the classes.

In the countries where FGM is practiced, many of the people are very religious and use religion to rationalize the practice. It may be possible to educate the religious leaders in those countries so that they will see that FGM is an unacceptable evil that must be ended. Then, they would work on their followers. Providing financial support to people in those countries who oppose FGM could be helpful.

I have tried to present solutions which may work. Has anyone else? Or do others posters simply react without carefully thinking the problem through to find solutions? Mere emotionalism does not solve problems.
 
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This is becoming ridiculous.

One does not solve problems by tearing out one's hair and jumping up and down shouting, "Stop! Stop! Stop!" That accomplishes exactly nothing and is likely to distract from putting in the effort to understand the problem fully to make it possible to find effective solutions. What is needed is cool-headed thinking rather than useless emotion. Then, the problem can be more effectively addressed and stopped.

There is a precedent from China. For centuries, women had their feet bound. To understand how horrible the practice was, one has to understand what the procedure was. A young girl's feet would be broken so that the forward part of the foot would be folded under, making the feet appear small and, to twisted minds, beautiful and dainty. Women with bound feet experienced no end of trouble with them. There was constant pain and the only way they could walk was to balance on their heals (try it to see how awkward it is); even then, they could not walk very far. It was impossible to wash the feet properly, so they always stank and there was a constant risk of infection. Parents had it done to their daughters to increase the likelihood that the daughters would have a good marriage. The practice gradually faded out as those objecting to it got men to agree never to marry a woman with bound feet. The communists finally put an end to the practice.

The most effective way to end FGM may not be to make it illegal, although that should also be done. Getting men to agree not to marry women who have been mutilated would go a long way to ending the practice, and that may be the most effective way to do it. But again, tearing out one's hair and screaming "Stop! Stop! Stop!" is unlikely to be effective.

During the Middle Ages, there were professional beggars; the profession was inherited, like other professions. To enhance the ability of their children to beg, beggars would intentionally cripple them. Until past the middle 1800's, in Italy, some parents had their boys castrated while young hoping that that would enable them to earn a good living by singing. That was successful for only a very few of them; the rest had their lives damaged with no compensating benefits.

So mutilating children is nothing new and it has always been despicable. But it is senseless to insist that people who are not exceedingly emotional about it are heartless. There are many evils in the world. We should work to end them as effectively as possible and not be obsessed with the emotional state of those who recognize evil as evil. In any case it is inappropriate to tell others what emotions they should experience.

I had no idea my use of the word "absolutely" could have such a profound impact.

You will have to forgive me though, as I am not the type to sit idly by and wait for the debate and legislation to correct injustices. If I seen someone holding a knife to your cock or a young girls clit I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on them.

IMHO if you maim or physically hurt the innocent you have no place in society. Your respect for others peoples lives and bodies, is a direct correlation of how I will respect your culture or religion. Fuck political correctness.
 

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IMHO if you maim or physically hurt the innocent you have no place in society. Your respect for others peoples lives and bodies, is a direct correlation of how I will respect your culture or religion. Fuck political correctness.

Will you be going down to your local burger bar or pizza place to sort out the adults who are feeding fat kids these foods, sodas and candies?

I knew some people in the UK who let their 14 yr old smoke and drink vodka.

Whilst we find the practice outrageous, and yes physically worse than male circumcision, you are dealing with deeply felt cultural identity issues. We are dealing with people who consider us from a different planet and with luxury of choice. You may think that child labour is a disgrace, but are you going to put food on their family's plate every day?

At least the campaign began some time ago, but I think it will still take several generations for it to stop.
 
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Will you be going down to your local burger bar or pizza place to sort out the adults who are feeding fat kids these foods, sodas and candies?

I knew some people in the UK who let their 14 yr old smoke and drink vodka.

Whilst we find the practice outrageous, and yes physically worse than male circumcision, you are dealing with deeply felt cultural identity issues. We are dealing with people who consider us from a different planet and with luxury of choice. You may think that child labour is a disgrace, but are you going to put food on their family's plate every day?

At least the campaign began some time ago, but I think it will still take several generations for it to stop.

Have to disagree with you, you are talking about using physical force in overpowering a helpless person and then maiming them vice personal choices. Junk food analogy is probably better suited to a drug dealer. Comparing the child labor law is probably closer to human trafficking; your comparisons just don't work along the same path for me.
 

Drifterwood

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Have to disagree with you, you are talking about using physical force in overpowering a helpless person and then maiming them vice personal choices. Junk food analogy is probably better suited to a drug dealer. Comparing the child labor law is probably closer to human trafficking; your comparisons just don't work along the same path for me.

These are things we do in the West, they shock other people. Would you accept someone else legislating against the way you have always lived your life? Would you accept it if the rest of the world legislated against cutting boys for example or everyone carrying guns? The rest of the world looks at our double standards in their eyes in this respect. This was the point I made badly perhaps earlier in the thread.
 

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Ahhhh yes, it's ok to take away another human being's ability to have an orgasm...because it's culture.....

This debate is always argued by guys who still own their glans penis. I bet they wouldn't be very happy without the ability to orgasm- EVER. But hey....culture and all that jazz.
 

_yayme

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Ahhhh yes, it's ok to take away another human being's ability to have an orgasm...because it's culture.....

This debate is always argued by guys who still own their glans penis. I bet they wouldn't be very happy without the ability to orgasm- EVER. But hey....culture and all that jazz.

I agree its like where do these "cultures" get their reasoning from
 

Drifterwood

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Ahhhh yes, it's ok to take away another human being's ability to have an orgasm...because it's culture.....

This debate is always argued by guys who still own their glans penis. I bet they wouldn't be very happy without the ability to orgasm- EVER. But hey....culture and all that jazz.

The point is not that it is OK, the point is that it is incredibly difficult, for all the reasons discussed in the Unicef report, to implement change.
 

FRE

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I had no idea my use of the word "absolutely" could have such a profound impact.

You will have to forgive me though, as I am not the type to sit idly by and wait for the debate and legislation to correct injustices. If I seen someone holding a knife to your cock or a young girls clit I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger on them.

IMHO if you maim or physically hurt the innocent you have no place in society. Your respect for others peoples lives and bodies, is a direct correlation of how I will respect your culture or religion. Fuck political correctness.

I wouldn't blame you for yielding to the temptation to pull the trigger. It would be exceedingly difficult to hear someone screaming in extreme pain without reacting like that. It's discouraging to know that a culture or society can be so sick as to tolerate such things. Unfortunately, such reactions, though they may help one person, are not enough to end the practice.
 

FRE

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Ahhhh yes, it's ok to take away another human being's ability to have an orgasm...because it's culture.....

This debate is always argued by guys who still own their glans penis. I bet they wouldn't be very happy without the ability to orgasm- EVER. But hey....culture and all that jazz.

Some people do use culture as an excuse, as you know. I do not understand or agree with the idea that all cultures are equal and should be respected as such. That doesn't mean that all cultures should be the same, but all cultures should at least have an adequate concern for other people and avoid harming other people.
 

FRE

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I couldn`t be arsed to go threw the whole thread. But here is what I KNOW and what I THINK!
Not only does the FEMALE MUTILATION represent the removal of clitoris, it often represents the removal of OTHER HEALTHY female reproductive organs. There are many factors why it`s done, and they can all be called by one name -MISOGYNY!
Women shouldn`t enjoy sex, women are dirty if they have their clit, women can`t give birth to male children, women are more prone to be obsessed by the devil with their clit intact, women can become LESBIANS with they clitoris, they won`t get married....There are many, many more. it has nothing to to with religion, but unfortunatelly many religious groups (not only muslim) have adopted that cruel tradition.
Unfortunately, it`s done to women by other women. But the idea, thousands of years old, was MEN`s!

When I lived in Fiji, while I was with some Muslim men, the topic of FGM came up. Everyone was against it, and one man said, "Women are entitled to that pleasure too." And, as you say, FGM is not limited to Muslims; even some Christians practice it.