WTF is Bug Chasing about anyways?

[Bbucko]

I have an acquaintance who intentionally went out of his way to catch HIV about 5 years ago. His 'logic' was that he now knows he has it and does not have to 'worry' and found it 'liberating'. He is not a youngin' (about my age) and an intelligent and accomplished educator....I really can not wrap my mind around it. Another disturbing thing I have heard from younger folks is "by the time I get sick, they will have found a cure'....ummm...HELLO!!??!!...it's been 30 years.

My guess is that some people view people living with long term HIV and the miracle of suppression meds as making HIV a chronic, manageable disease...like diabetes. I wish they could talk to people I know who are on those meds and hear firsthand some of the God-awful side effects (and cost) involved before making a conscience decision to become infected.

There's a lot of truth in this. For some guys, it's survivor guilt, for others it's a "let's get it (infection) over with so I don't need to 'worry' about it any more". I really don't think that I need to explain how deeply damaged some gay men get on their way to adulthood, nor how deeply self-destructive and nihilistic they can be.

The other side of the coin is one that Big Pharma and the medical community have pushed for years, which is referred to with some bitterness amongst us old LTS (long-term survivor) dinosaurs as AIDS-Lite: take your meds, eat well, get plenty of sleep and you'll be fine. Being HIV+ has been compared to Diabetes for years now by those whom I refer to as AIDS minimizers. Minimizing the impact of HIV infection does no one any favors unless you have something to sell. And yes, I believe it's as cold as that.

Oh shit yeah, I forgot about the other side of the coin! "Gift-givers" What in the hell is that about? How does someone get sexual pleasure from having infected someone else?

My last, nine-year relationship cannot be understood without understanding how a broken condom (and the subsequent accidental seroconversion of my now-ex) led me to the greatest shame and guilt I've ever felt. I felt so responsible for him that I held on to a completely toxic and highly corrosive relationship until I was broken physically, emotionally and monetarily. It's been six years now since I fled in the middle of the night in response to a death threat that he meant with complete sincerity, but I still haven't recovered or healed completely.

The Gifter mentality is sociopathic and profoundly evil. There is nothing remotely sexy about it; fortunately, it's also extremely rare. Much more common is a laziness of spirit that breeds a kind of apathy regarding one's sexual partners. It's a kind of casual, stupid every-man-for-himself attitude that can't be arsed to disclose and an over-reliance on the myth that topping is "essentially safe" among HIV+ bottoms. This isn't Chasing or Gifting, it's just mass stupidity: a sexualized DADT

Anyone who knows me knows that I simply don't/won't consider a sexual encounter with someone who's HIV negative: I always ask and I always, always disclose.

 

[luka82]

I just realised what this thread is about. I can really be so literal that it makes me daft.
I just don`t get it. I`m a mild hypochondriac myself. And you know what that means-I caught it, I have it or I`m 5 mins away from death.... The thing with me, the thing what scares me more than the idea "I have it" are the chances I might have given it to someone else. I don`t know how I would live with myself knowing I have passed it out to someone. I`m not just talking about AIDS and STD`s.
Hil I do not know what the turn on is for these people, but people should value life more.

 

[helgaleena]

Bbucko: not a mass murderer :hugs:

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

There's a lot of truth in this. For some guys, it's survivor guilt, for others it's a "let's get it (infection) over with so I don't need to 'worry' about it any more". I really don't think that I need to explain how deeply damaged some gay men get on their way to adulthood, nor how deeply self-destructive and nihilistic they can be.

So you would say then that in some cases this self-destructive impulse is probably a vaguely suicidal one?

There are though some bug chasers for whom the actual notion of "infection" seems to be the source of sexual arousal, and there are even some as I mentioned for whom it is not what disease they are being infected by but simply the fact that they have been infected with something (HIV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, whatever) which seems to give them pleasure. Some trumpet how frequently they have to visit the clap doctor, and wear their infections as a kind of sexual costume which it seems some Tops are also aroused by. The term "Aids Whore" is used and is a badge of sexual distinction.

The other side of the coin is one that Big Pharma and the medical community have pushed for years, which is referred to with some bitterness amongst us old LTS (long-term survivor) dinosaurs as AIDS-Lite: take your meds, eat well, get plenty of sleep and you'll be fine. Being HIV+ has been compared to Diabetes for years now by those whom I refer to as AIDS minimizers. Minimizing the impact of HIV infection does no one any favors unless you have something to sell. And yes, I believe it's as cold as that.

I can totally buy this, I meet younger gay guys who genuinely do not understand that HIV is nothing like having a normal chronic condition and that treatments are far from 100% effective in all cases.

My last, nine-year relationship cannot be understood without understanding how a broken condom (and the subsequent accidental seroconversion of my now-ex) led me to the greatest shame and guilt I've ever felt. I felt so responsible for him that I held on to a completely toxic and highly corrosive relationship until I was broken physically, emotionally and monetarily. It's been six years now since I fled in the middle of the night in response to a death threat that he meant with complete sincerity, but I still haven't recovered or healed completely.

And though the consequences were highly destructive for you, I think that's exactly what might happen to anyone with a sense of compassion, empathy, and who would be in the process of dealing with their own health problems too.

The Gifter mentality is sociopathic and profoundly evil. There is nothing remotely sexy about it; fortunately, it's also extremely rare. Much more common is a laziness of spirit that breeds a kind of apathy regarding one's sexual partners. It's a kind of casual, stupid every-man-for-himself attitude that can't be arsed to disclose and an over-reliance on the myth that topping is "essentially safe" among HIV+ bottoms. This isn't Chasing or Gifting, it's just mass stupidity: a sexualized DADT

Anyone who knows me knows that I simply don't/won't consider a sexual encounter with someone who's HIV negative: I always ask and I always, always disclose.

How rare do you think "Gifting" is? If the internet is anything to go by (and it usually isn't) it would seem to be becoming more popular... :frown1:

 

[mitchymo]

Bug-chasers are dumb.
Gift-givers are evil.

The idea of being in charge of your own mortality is the dumbest possible reason i've heard so far. Walk out tomorrow, get run over by a truck. There is no control over your own mortality until the day you kill yourself ACTUALLY.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Bug-chasers are dumb.
Gift-givers are evil.

The idea of being in charge of your own mortality is the dumbest possible reason i've heard so far. Walk out tomorrow, get run over by a truck. There is no control over your own mortality until the day you kill yourself ACTUALLY.

What I meant by saying I understood the desire to be in charge of one's own mortality is that I can understand that if I could choose how I would die, I would. Naturally I'd choose something calm and healthy and quick and a long, long time in the future.

 

[Bbucko]

Bbucko: not a mass murderer :hugs:

Hugs back, sweetheart.

So you would say then that in some cases this self-destructive impulse is probably a vaguely suicidal one?

Not splitting hairs, but I'd say more nihilistic than suicidal; these are simply guys who feel they have nothing left to lose and who have little or no self-esteem. I'm reminded of Tom Wait's song $29.

There are though some bug chasers for whom the actual notion of "infection" seems to be the source of sexual arousal, and there are even some as I mentioned for whom it is not what disease they are being infected by but simply the fact that they have been infected with something (HIV, Gonorrhea, Syphilis, whatever) which seems to give them pleasure. Some trumpet how frequently they have to visit the clap doctor, and wear their infections as a kind of sexual costume which it seems some Tops are also aroused by. The term "Aids Whore" is used and is a badge of sexual distinction.

Sexual wiring is a really hard thing to explain, Hilly. But even someone as depraved and jaded as yours truly cannot understand the fucked up behavior you're describing. I've made it a life-long pattern to not inquire too deeply into the mental illnesses of others, lest a greater understanding lead to assimilating it. I have enough issues of my own, thanks.

The only thing I'll say is that, in some sick-fuck kinda way, these people seem to have embraced a kind of cult of self-destruction as a way of taking control over their lives through sheer chaos. It makes my head hurt.

I can totally buy this, I meet younger gay guys who genuinely do not understand that HIV is nothing like having a normal chronic condition and that treatments are far from 100% effective in all cases.

AIDS-Lite is one of the biggest reasons why I gave up on a HIV support website after it had been purchased by a tool for Big Pharma. With the sell-out, the moderators and administrators switched from an open and unbiased forum to one which pushed a minimizing agenda 24/7.

Freaked-out n00bs would create accounts begging to be spoon-fed the AIDS-Lite message only to be confronted by LTS such as myself (and many others) with some cold hard reality regarding the toxicity of the meds and their ineffectiveness for so very many. When several LTS, who needed that website due to frail health and complete isolation were banned for "excessive negativity" I picked up my ball and went elsewhere (here, actually).

And though the consequences were highly destructive for you, I think that's exactly what might happen to anyone with a sense of compassion, empathy, and who would be in the process of dealing with their own health problems too.

I put my needs and concerns so low in terms of priority that the results left me shattered. There's no other word to use.

How rare do you think "Gifting" is? If the internet is anything to go by (and it usually isn't) it would seem to be becoming more popular... :frown1:

As I said above, I honestly think that actively seeking HIV negative guys to infect is actually very rare. In 2005 I wrote this highly polemical screed on the subject and published it on The Spin Cycle. Though the tone is much more bombastic than I'd use today, my opinion regarding the whole subject hasn't changed all that much.

Much, much more common in my experience is the apathy and nihilism I discussed above, fueled by Tina/Special K/name your poison. I'm not any sort of prohibitionist, but even I recognize the unique scourge illicit drugs inflicts on our community.

Nothing will change until we raise gay men to love themselves as they are instead of twisting them into contemptuous, tightly-wrapped balls of utter self-loathing.

 

[mitchymo]

What I meant by saying I understood the desire to be in charge of one's own mortality is that I can understand that if I could choose how I would die, I would. Naturally I'd choose something calm and healthy and quick and a long, long time in the future.

Most people would understand the desire, but as i said, its a dumb reason to be a bug-chaser, aids or not, there is still no control.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Much, much more common in my experience is the apathy and nihilism I discussed above, fueled by Tina/Special K/name your poison. I'm not any sort of prohibitionist, but even I recognize the unique scourge illicit drugs inflicts on our community.

Nothing will change until we raise gay men to love themselves as they are instead of twisting them into contemptuous, tightly-wrapped balls of utter self-loathing.

This is such an incredibly important message. I feel like we've all been so focused, and probably rightly so, on wider social attitudes towards homosexuality in the last 40 years or so, and struggling to gain equality, that personal inner development and positive consciousness raising has been somewhat left behind.

I completely agree that we need to raise healthy, and self loving gay men who do not end up on a path to self-destruction.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Most people would understand the desire, but as i said, its a dumb reason to be a bug-chaser, aids or not, there is still no control.

Well from my own perspective all reasons for bug chasing are somewhat opaque.

I'm really trying to get to the root of the psychology of it because it's so hard to fathom.

 

[TomCat84]

Folks, despite what you say- for the VAST majority of new infections- at least in the first world, HIV IS a manageable condition on par with diabetes, as long as the infected take very good care of themselves and have access to medical care. It isn't like most people find out they are positive and immediately start sprouting purple blotches ala Philadelphia. Would you want it? No. Is it an immediate death sentence? Absolutely not. Is intentionally infecting people on par with mass murder? NO! Is it sickening, and deserving of punishment? YES! Stop sensationalizing HIV infection.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Folks, despite what you say- for the VAST majority of new infections- at least in the first world, HIV IS a manageable condition on par with diabetes, as long as the infected take very good care of themselves and have access to medical care. It isn't like most people find out they are positive and immediately start sprouting purple blotches ala Philadelphia. Would you want it? No. Is it an immediate death sentence? Absolutely not. Is intentionally infecting people on par with mass murder? NO! Is it sickening, and deserving of punishment? YES! Stop sensationalizing HIV infection.

OK you're entitled to your view, but if I'm looking for a clear informed view of what it's like to live with HIV I'm probably going to go with what those friends and acquaintances of mine who are HIV+ tell me.

I don't think anyone has sensationalised HIV in this thread, certainly not me in any case.

 

[mitchymo]

Well from my own perspective all reasons for bug chasing are somewhat opaque.

I'm really trying to get to the root of the psychology of it because it's so hard to fathom.

I would understand it as a mental issue of some sort. I definately wouldn't call it a sexual fetish of any kind.
As a mental issue, its got to be pretty fucked up and perhaps psychologists could answer the question better than any ordinary person.

 

[nudeyorker]

Tomcat I'm glad you are doing well and happy and leading a full life. I wish all my friends who have died from Aids related illness were here so I could say the same thing to them.
I don't see where anyone here has sensationalized HIV.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

Tomcat I'm glad you are doing well and happy and leading a full life. I wish all my friends who have died from Aids related illness were here so I could say the same thing to them.
I don't see where anyone here has sensationalized HIV.

Yeah and I don't think this thread is really about HIV per se, it's about how some people intentionally abuse themselves in a very serious way for pleasure and the people who enjoy abusing them in this way for their own pleasure.

 

[mitchymo]

Is intentionally infecting people on par with mass murder? NO!

Its not on par, but it is extremely close tho.

EDIT:- specific circumstances obviously, not one person deliberately infecting just one other person, but when someone does it to dozens of people knowing they are infected...

 

[Snozzle]

I can really be so literal that it makes me daft.

If you also don't get jokes and have trouble relating to people, consider that you may be borderline for Aspergers. Here's a questionnnaire Knowledge is power.


As for the bug-chaser syndrome, I once knew a depressed guy who planned to commit suicide by HIV. I recommended against it, but I don't think many are like that. But could there also be an inverse lottery effect? You buy the ticket as an aid to daydreaming about what you'd do if you won. The pleasure is in the daydreaming. Perhaps they imagine living with HIV is something like being in La Traviata (ie romance and passion enhanced by fragility).

 

[Bbucko]

OK you're entitled to your view, but if I'm looking for a clear informed view of what it's like to live with HIV I'm probably going to go with what those friends and acquaintances of mine who are HIV+ tell me.

I don't think anyone has sensationalised HIV in this thread, certainly not me in any case.

TC's poz.

He and I have had this discussion (n00b vs LTS) in private. I can respect his attitude as a coping mechanism and I hope it works for a long time for him. I cannot impose my reality on him, nor do I wish to. This is a subject on which I agree to disagree with him.

'Nuf said.

 

[D_Tim McGnaw]

TC's poz.

He and I have had this discussion (n00b vs LTS) in private. I can respect his attitude as a coping mechanism and I hope it works for a long time for him. I cannot impose my reality on him, nor do I wish to. This is a subject on which I agree to disagree with him.

'Nuf said.

I didn't know that, sorry if I offended you TC (though I don't think I said anything off did I? :redface , like I say though I'm just going on what people I know in my real life tell me. But in any case the actual nature of HIV as a disease and what it's like to live with hasn't really been the topic of this thread, nor was it intended to be.

 

[Bbucko]

Its not on par, but it is extremely close tho.

EDIT:- specific circumstances obviously, not one person deliberately infecting just one other person, but when someone does it to dozens of people knowing they are infected...

I strongly disagree with criminalizing illness, and unless this person rapes his partners, then any resulting seroconversion is the responsibility of the person who consented to unprotected sex.

I know a woman who was infected by a closeted, unfaithful husband on the DL, and even she accepts this line of reasoning. The minute we start dividing up people living with HIV/AIDS into neat, discrete piles of "innocent" and "other" we perpetuate a stigma that is a crushing burden to those who live with the virus.