You americans, why are you cut ?

B_Chris63

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Doesn't he post everything to the help desk? Thought I recalled seeing another post where someone asked him to stop.
you are right darling mistakes of a beginner ! where can I post elsewhere, i do not find "new thread" if someone can HELP ! S O S merci !
 

goldeneye

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Without having read any of the thread responses, an equally valid question is, "Why aren't y'all?"
 

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goldeneye, there are only 21 posts prior to yours. You couldn't take the time to read some of them?

I'll answer you're question anyway: they [continental Europe] didn't get bamboozled by false claims of "preventing" maladies which were specious decades ago and disproved now.

Let me pose a question to you, goldeneye, why did we buy into a scam and they didn't?
 

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goldeneye, there are only 21 posts prior to yours. You couldn't take the time to read some of them?
But then he might need to look too at all the circumcision threads and then if he read them all and every post he would not be able to post again for a year or two there are so many

I'll answer you're question anyway: they [continental Europe] didn't get bamboozled by false claims of "preventing" maladies which were specious decades ago and disproved now.
May be it was to make it so it would be easier to tell Americans from Europeans and had nothing to do with bamboozling

Let me pose a question to you, goldeneye, why did we buy into a scam and they didn't?
Or maybe perhaps it was so we rich americans could show the world how we are wealthy enough to throw money away on needless cuttings.


As to buying into scams SteveHd, I was born at a time where circumcising was routine but my parents were against it They were ahead of their time.
 

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Hi Jason,

What could we do to get insurers to disinclude circ from their policies? It sounds like they don't care one way or the other, except from the point of cost savings, which is the only way they care. I think it would help, because you know as well as I do that anything included in health insurance is enticing to people because they see it as a way of getting value out of it - without thinking what that may mean.

In the U.S. my opinion is that we frequently have way too much health care and not enough health. People on a dozen prescriptions crying for more prescription drug insurance dollars is a good example. And a dozen is by no means an upper limit.
 

ManiacalMadMan

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ManiacalMadMan, my post was specifically directed to goldeneye not you.



I am entitled as any other to respond to a post Would you like me to go through all of your posts where you have responded when not directly spoken to? It is an open board an all are entitled to respond where and when they want
 

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You're right. They don't care because they just pass along the cost to the policyholder. The insurance company doesn't particularly care how much coverage costs because costs are based on the doctor's fee. Whether we or another company covered the policy, the cost stays the same so it's not as though we could compete on a cost basis. Dr. X is going to charge $200 whether we covered the procedure or another company did. Now we can save money by negotiating a lower fee from the doctor if the doctor participated in our health plan but even those are fees are pretty standard.

In truth, the only way to halt coverage for circumcision is to make coverage for it cost so much that policyholders, in the form of employers, see such savings from not covering it that their bottom line is measurably impacted. The only way to do that is to make it cost much more for a doctor to perform. A few more court cases like the Stowell case or some spectacular awards for botched circumcisions should do the trick. The more malpractice insurers see risk in covering the procedure then the higher their premium demands from the physician doing the procedure. Some OB procedures are extremely expensive to cover because the risk of a malpractice suit are high but these are serious, necessary, sometimes life-saving procedures. Circumcision isn't so why should a doctor perform one if his malpractice premiums go way up because he performs them? Sure he could just pass along a much higher bill to the insurance company but given the lack of necessity, most policyholders would balk at purchasing coverage for it.

Everything comes down to a cost/benefit basis. Policyholders will purchase coverage for what they believe offers the most value to their group participants and leave out what doesn't. Insurance companies can only negotiate a price with its network providers so far as the doctor sees some profit from performing a procedure. If a circumcision costs Dr. X $400 in malpractice premiums but can only negotiate a price of $200 with the insurance company, then he won't do them unless he knows he can bill the parents the difference and still include a profit. The problem is that malpractice costs are spread over all procedure practitioners. Dr. X may not have any malpractice suits but Dr. Q does. Dr. Q's suits raise the cost for all other doctors, including Dr. X. As a result, the costs of doing the procedure gets raised for all doctors and that means the health insurer can only negotiate so far since all doctors have the same cost basis. We can't ask Dr. X to receive $200 while Dr. Q receives $400 because Dr. Q's botch jobs have raised the costs for every other doctor. All the doctors now need to charge $400 to see any profit.

The health insurer doesn't care how much the cost is. We just tack it on to the policy and present the bill to the group policyholder. If the policyholder wants to buy coverage for it, then it gets included. If they don't, it's excluded. Our price won't be much more or less than any other insurer because all insurers have to work with the same doctors whose cost basis doesn't change based upon the healthplans they participate in.

Insurers actually see little or no profit from health policies. The competition is so fierce that margins have been reduced to nil. Profits are made from investing the received premiums in other financial vehicles. In some cases insurers actually lose money but if they're capable of offering health plans as parts of other larger comprehensive insurance plans then they'll make profits in other areas of the package (liability, worker's comp, fire, life, etc.). Large plans like these are drawn-up by brokers and then shopped among insurers.

Insurers will offer circumcision so long as doctors offer it and people want it. It's the most popular non-dental surgical procedure in the United States so the cost savings can be substantial, but the only way to do that is to raise the cost of it so high that policyholders don't see a benefit in offering it to their insureds. Given that circumcision is relatively cheap and quick to perform, doctors generally see a quick $50 to $75 in their pocket doing something that's low risk (in their assessment) and relatively high profit. Even if the insurance doesn't cover it, the doctor can charge the insureds and most will pay it given the relatively nominal cost. That's why the cost for the doctors has to rise. If a doctor says he performs 100 circumcisions a year then his malpractice insurer will raise premiums to cover those. What has to be made expensive is the malpractice cost because then policy holders and parents will balk at paying such outrageous fees for something so (in their minds) trivial, and doctors won't want to perform it because of the costs to them in malpractice premiums.



Hi Jason,

What could we do to get insurers to disinclude circ from their policies? It sounds like they don't care one way or the other, except from the point of cost savings, which is the only way they care. I think it would help, because you know as well as I do that anything included in health insurance is enticing to people because they see it as a way of getting value out of it - without thinking what that may mean.

In the U.S. my opinion is that we frequently have way too much health care and not enough health. People on a dozen prescriptions crying for more prescription drug insurance dollars is a good example. And a dozen is by no means an upper limit.
 

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One other thing.

National health care will kill circumcision faster than anything else you can imagine and do so within a generation. The cost structure of national plans is such that it isn't worth it.
 

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Okay. That's dumb, but for the record, men can get by without a foreskin - after a fashion, as people get by without many other small body parts.

gee, thanks so much for respecting my decision. :rolleyes: it's "dumb." hmm...and people wonder why it's so hard to have an intelligent discussion on the internet. :tongue:

and if men can get by without a foreskin, then why is my decision to someday have my sons circumcised dumb? personally, i prefer being circumcised and i'm grateful my parents had me cut when i was born. so i'm going to do the same for any sons i may have someday. and if they're pissed at me about it for some reason...well, they can come on the internet and bitch about it like everyone else. :biggrin1:
 

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Imagine if your sons come to you and say 'dad I find I can't have sex comfortably, I have skin bridges which constantly cause infections and my scar bothers me,' do the sensible thing and let it be their decision, you're pleased with your circumcision, they might not be.
 

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Or do what I'm doing. When my sister had her son I told her that if wants to be circumcised when he turns 18 I will pay for everything to have it done by any doctor he wants anywhere. I put $500 aside in a separate account just for this and if he turns 18 and wants it done then I'll use the money accrued over the next 15 years to pay for it OR he'll get a hell of a nice 18th birthday present.

I think what frustrated dxj was that you seemed to put very little thought into something that's traumatic and life-changing for someone else. Maybe you have done more research and have made a decision based upon that. You are cutting off sexually sensitive, useful parts of your son's body so simply saying you will do it to your sons because it was done to you seems rather cavalier. You say you prefer to be circumcised yet you have not experienced both states and that is rather like saying you prefer Chinese food to Indian food without having tried Indian food.

Whatever you decide, I hope you will carefully consider what it is you're doing. As has been pointed out, as a parent you should fully consider what surgeries you subject your child to particularly when they're not necessary. There are risks up to and including death.
 

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what i'm saying is that it was done to me with no negative side effects. i'm still an upright, functioning human being who loves sex and has no problem with the act (beyond, occasionally, finding a partner for it). and in fact having seen uncircumcised penises and talking with friends who weren't cut, i find i'm personally GLAD my parents did it. so as they made the decision for me with no harm or trauma, i'll make it for my sons. how is that offensive? am i supposed to consult random strangers on the internet on how to raise my children? or worse, let the government decide? flip it around and imagine i had called him or anyone else on this thread "dumb" for NOT having their children circumcised, or called their parents "dumb" for not having it done to them. pretty insulting. pretty unnecessary to the conversation and discourse at hand. but because i'm the big bad man who supports circumcision, it's okay for him to call me such. yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense...

i'm not denigrating anyone else's decision for themselves or their family. because that's between them and their family and their own reasonsings, be they religious, cultural or whatever. i don't see it as a huge leap to expect the same level of respect from others. then again, this IS the internet so maybe it's just a pipe dream...
 

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When you make a post on the internet you're automatically leaving yourself open to comment/criticism from random strangers, and why are you seeing it as a criticism and not simply an opening of discourse.
You didn't suffer any bad effects from your circumcision, however, there are plenty of guys on here who did suffer from it, it's really a matter of luck as to whether your sons will be glad or really unhappy about it. Parents do make choices for their kids, but they're usually choices that have to be made for them while they're still children, where they go to school, vaccinations, what morals you will try to give them, but those are all choices that have to be made, circumcision isn't a choice that has to be made, it's one that can be safely left to them.
 

dcwrestlefan

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this debate is so tired. it pops up frequently.

if you like being cut. cool. if you like being uncut. cool. the "this is baby mutilation" argument makes me lmfao though.
 

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No, you're supposed to weigh the benefits and disadvantages, investigate just what is done, how it is done, and why you're doing it. If you're happy you're circumcised, good for you.

But what if someone said you couldn't be circumcised even if you wanted to be?

I think a lot of guys choose to circumcise their sons because if they don't then it somehow makes their own penis something less than it ought to be. Because it was done to them and it's irreversible then something in them forces them to think it was the best thing for them despite the fact that there are a lot of complications, pain, and risks not to mention you're sexually desensitizing your sons. None of that, however, seems to matter. Maybe men see their sons' penises as extensions of their own, a reflection on their sexual value.

The fact is your penis isn't operating as designed nor is it as sensitive as it could be. No physician group recommends circumcision any longer yet we still do it. There's a disconnect that must be connected to something emotional because when weighed objectively, either on a medical, individual liberty, or human rights scale, there is no supporting it.

I talk about circumcision to guys and they frequently laugh or grasp their groin and groan, even refuse to watch one. Something is telling them there is something wrong with it but something stronger is telling them to do it to their unconsenting son despite the fact that too much skin could be taken, bleeding could be excessive, septicemia could set in causing loss of the genitals, or their son could die. Your son will carry a scarred penis for the rest of his life because despite medical opinion, you wanted your son stripped of some of the most erogenous tissue he has.

That's why it's so frustrating. No matter how much medical or humanist information you give so many people, they just won't accept it because to say circumcision is bad is to say their own penis (or that of their husband) has something wrong with it, and that generally evokes great anger in people. If only we could let go of anger long enough to consider the effect that anger has on the people we love most, namely our children.
 

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When you make a post on the internet you're automatically leaving yourself open to comment/criticism from random strangers, and why are you seeing it as a criticism and not simply an opening of discourse.
You didn't suffer any bad effects from your circumcision, however, there are plenty of guys on here who did suffer from it, it's really a matter of luck as to whether your sons will be glad or really unhappy about it. Parents do make choices for their kids, but they're usually choices that have to be made for them while they're still children, where they go to school, vaccinations, what morals you will try to give them, but those are all choices that have to be made, circumcision isn't a choice that has to be made, it's one that can be safely left to them.

i don't see how calling me or my parents "dumb" is a valid comment or criticism in a rational discussion. now, if we're having an irrational discussion, then i'll kindly tip my hat and be on my way. otherwise, no, i don't see it as an "opening of discourse" to question my intelligence for stating my opinions and values on the subject.

it's a personal and complex issue, so i'm certainly not going to let it be dictated to me by strangers on the internet, any more than i would expect any of you to look at my posts and say "well, hey, if HE'S going to get his kids circumcised, then maybe i should too!" sorry if this isn't an open exchange of ideas. the original poster asked a question. i answered it. rather matter of factly, yes, because at the time i just wanted to voice my personal stance on the matter. i wasn't expecting to be insulted on the matter or i'd have taken my opinions to a more tolerant forum.
 

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this debate is so tired. it pops up frequently.

if you like being cut. cool. if you like being uncut. cool. the "this is baby mutilation" argument makes me lmfao though.

If the person is a baby and if you're cutting off normal healthy tissue then by dictionary definition, it IS mutilation. Saying it isn't is to deny reality.
 

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I didn't call your parents or you dumb did I? In the past parents accepted circumcision because that was what the norm was, we have more knowledge now and I would hope everyone making an irrevocable decision for themselves would read up on it, but when it comes to making irrevocable irreversible decisions for someone else I would hope they'd leave the choice with the only person it has any effect on.
 

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No, you're supposed to weigh the benefits and disadvantages, investigate just what is done, how it is done, and why you're doing it. If you're happy you're circumcised, good for you.

But what if someone said you couldn't be circumcised even if you wanted to be?

I think a lot of guys choose to circumcise their sons because if they don't then it somehow makes their own penis something less than it ought to be. Because it was done to them and it's irreversible then something in them forces them to think it was the best thing for them despite the fact that there are a lot of complications, pain, and risks not to mention you're sexually desensitizing your sons. None of that, however, seems to matter. Maybe men see their sons' penises as extensions of their own, a reflection on their sexual value.

The fact is your penis isn't operating as designed nor is it as sensitive as it could be. No physician group recommends circumcision any longer yet we still do it. There's a disconnect that must be connected to something emotional because when weighed objectively, either on a medical, individual liberty, or human rights scale, there is no supporting it.

I talk about circumcision to guys and they frequently laugh or grasp their groin and groan, even refuse to watch one. Something is telling them there is something wrong with it but something stronger is telling them to do it to their unconsenting son despite the fact that too much skin could be taken, bleeding could be excessive, septicemia could set in causing loss of the genitals, or their son could die. Your son will carry a scarred penis for the rest of his life because despite medical opinion, you wanted your son stripped of some of the most erogenous tissue he has.

That's why it's so frustrating. No matter how much medical or humanist information you give so many people, they just won't accept it because to say circumcision is bad is to say their own penis (or that of their husband) has something wrong with it, and that generally evokes great anger in people. If only we could let go of anger long enough to consider the effect that anger has on the people we love most, namely our children.

and those of us who have done some research and just genuinely disagree with all of the above? i don't see circumcision as a bad thing and i'm certainly not going to have it done to my sons to make up for some perceived inadequacy in my own penis. i LOVE my penis. i LOVE sex and how it feels. people tell me i'm missing out on something because i don't have a foreskin...but i certainly don't feel like i'm missing out on anything. because sex as it is is awesome.

and regardless of whatever medical quotes we want to bandy about from either side, the truth is that those aren't the only issues. there are also religious, cultural, traditional matters to consider. maybe they're not yours personally or you eschew them, but they are cherished by some. so why not let it be an option instead of trying to force your values on to someone else, especially when you would be equally outraged by someone trying to force theirs on you?

i've had this debate a few times now and it just gets tired because it's like debating why i eat meat with a vegetarian. they see themselves as this holy missionary sent to save me from myself and the naughty bad choices i make and i don't appreciate the self righteous tone. i never degrade or insult anyone for being a vegetarian or being uncircumcised or anything. and yet i'm somehow an awful person for having different principles and values.

consider it if you will for a moment in terms of abortion. i don't know any of your personal feelings on the matter, but i'm pro choice. i don't personally think it's a "good" thing, but i do think it's important that it be the choice of the parties involved rather than outside meddling from those ideologically opposed to it or the government. and regardless of the metaphysical debate about when "life" begins, the truth is that it is the destruction of a potential person, a developing human being. and that child has no say or decision in their fate. so if i support that...then parents choosing to remove what is, in my opinion, an almost vestigial piece of flesh pales in comparison. those are MY values, MY principles, MY beliefs, MY opinions. and they're no less valid than yours, no matter what kind of banner of "humanism" you want to wrap yourself in.