You americans, why are you cut ?

the_reverend

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I didn't call your parents or you dumb did I? In the past parents accepted circumcision because that was what the norm was, we have more knowledge now and I would hope everyone making an irrevocable decision for themselves would read up on it, but when it comes to making irrevocable irreversible decisions for someone else I would hope they'd leave the choice with the only person it has any effect on.

no, you didn't. i feel like you and i are having about the closest thing i've seen in this thread to an actual reasonable discussion on the matter. but my initial responses were towards another individual who did say that my decision or reasoning, or that of my parents was "dumb." which is all i was initially taking offense to. i love disagreement! i think argument is vital. it's when it descends into petty name calling that it loses its value.

thank you for dealing with me like a rational respectful human being. it's much appreciated.
 

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Abortion is the choice of the woman having it, I don't make any pretences it has anything to do with the rights of an unborn fetus, it's the choice of the woman whose body that fetus resides in which override the rights of an unborn. To eat or not eat meat is the choice of the human who's doing the eating nothing to do with the animals rights. Circumcision should be the right of whoever's body it's being performed on. It's about human choice, humans are at the top of the food chain and they're the ones who get to make the choice.

In many places circumcision is accepted but the majority of the world gets by very well without circumcision which is why so many Europeans question it, if any custom that some people found unpleasant wasn't questioned it would never be seen for what it was - a custom which isn't necessary and doesn't have any benefits.
 

the_reverend

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Abortion is the choice of the woman having it, I don't make any pretences it has anything to do with the rights of an unborn fetus, it's the choice of the woman whose body that fetus resides in which override the rights of an unborn. To eat or not eat meat is the choice of the human who's doing the eating nothing to do with the animals rights. Circumcision should be the right of whoever's body it's being performed on. It's about human choice, human's are at the top of the food chain and they're the ones who get to make the choice.

but it's also the elimination of that child's life, or at least the potential for life. the person they might've been ceases to exist. and they have no say or decision in that. comparatively speaking, for whatever the parents' reasoning might be, circumcision is rather small. you can frame the argument about being a woman's choice, and it is. but it doesn't change the fact that you're irrevocably changing the course of another life by eradicating it without its consent. irrevocably changing someone's johnson by cutting off a bit of flesh is tame in comparison.

my point is that being pro choice on EITHER issue is about exercising options. i don't think parents who have their son circumcised are any less valid in doing so than those who say "no, never" or those who decide "we'll leave it up to him when he's old enough to decide for himself." as long as no one agenda is being forced or enforced by outside parties (eg: banning all abortion vs. having mandatory abortions), then i see nothing wrong with it.

In many places circumcision is accepted but the majority of the world gets by very well without circumcision which is why so many Europeans question it, if any custom that some people found unpleasant wasn't questioned it would never be seen for what it was - a custom which isn't necessary and doesn't have any benefits.

and if those of us who believe in such customs didn't stand up and say "now, hold on a minute...our beliefs are valid too," then the world would be a much lamer place to live in.
 

SpoiledPrincess

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I wasn't drawing any parallels between abortion and circumcision, I was trying to reinforce my feeling is that it's all about choice, it's my choice to have an abortion, it would have been my son's choice to have a circumcision.
 

the_reverend

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I wasn't drawing any parallels between abortion and circumcision, I was trying to reinforce my feeling is that it's all about choice, it's my choice to have an abortion, it would have been my son's choice to have a circumcision.

right, but i AM drawing parallels because in both instances, the parents are making a decision that affects the child. and thus pointing out, not saying anyone else has to agree with this logic, but if i'm pro choice in one, for the same reasons i'm pro choice in the other as well.
 

SpoiledPrincess

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In the case of an abortion the woman isn't making any decision for that child (except in the case of it being deformed or suffering from a disease) she's making one for herself, it's her body, she has the right to choose what happens to it. I presume from your posts you're not Jewish or Muslim and in that case in Europe unless there was a medical reason for circumcision you wouldn't even be considering it, you say that

as long as no one agenda is being forced or enforced by outside parties

and I believe that in the USA there is an agenda being pushed upon people to circumcise and it's so invidious that people don't even seem to realise it's being spoon fed to them.
 

the_reverend

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In the case of an abortion the woman isn't making any decision for that child (except in the case of it being deformed or suffering from a disease) she's making one for herself, it's her body, she has the right to choose what happens to it. I presume from your posts you're not Jewish or Muslim and in that case in Europe unless there was a medical reason for circumcision you wouldn't even be considering it, you say that

as long as no one agenda is being forced or enforced by outside parties

and I believe that in the USA there is an agenda being pushed upon people to circumcise and it's so invidious that people don't even seem to realise it's being spoon fed to them.

well, it's not being spoon fed to me. and if others are so weak willed as to have their decisions swayed so easily one way or the other, than that's a pretty sad commentary on them.

and regardless of if she's making the decision for herself or for the child, her decision has an effect on the child (read: it destroys it. pretty large effect, when you think about it). to say otherwise ignores a lot of the serious facets of the issue.

for the record, i am neither Jewish nor Muslim. I am Christian, with a lot of strong Eastern overtones of Zen Buddhism and Taoism. just to give you the fullest context. :cool:
 

the_reverend

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"Cherished customs" include female genital mutilation as well. Should we defend that?

no, because that's an utterly brutal practice used to subjugate female sexuality thus reenforcing the patriarchal status quo. i wouldn't defend having sex with a virgin to rid one's self of AIDS either, which is also a custom in those areas of the world. nor would i defend the custom of mandatory abortions or killing of female children in Asia, which are far more akin to female "circumcision" than its male counterpart (in name only).
 

jason_els

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So it's wrong only because it's used to subjugate female female sexuality? What if mothers want their daughters to be circumcised? Plenty of women in Africa think circumcising their daughters is a good idea because their parents told them it is.

Our parents tell us that circumcising our sons is a good idea too.

Men cutting off parts of other men is acceptable because the social reasons behind it are somehow more noble in your cultural perspective?

And yes, male circumcision can be as analagous to female circumcision. Removing the foreskin is the same as removing the clitoral hood and forcing the clitoris to become an external organ.

You know that band on the underside of the penis? The frenulum? Well that's one of the most sensitive parts of the entire male body. Circumcision usually removes all or some of it. As sensitive is the frenar band. Circumcision removes that entirely. If female circumcision is designed to degrade female sexual pleasure, I submit that male circumcision does the same thing.

You do not know what you are missing. You have never felt the sensations from those areas because they are gone from your body.

Why endanger your son with needless surgery?
Why remove sexually sensitive tissue from his body?
Why do you believe you have the right to remove normal, healthy parts from another person against their will?
 

London_Calling

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reverend, you say in one of your posts that you prefer being cut but how would you know? What do you have to compare it to? If you had been cut later in life, fine, but you were cut as a newborn so have no comparison. You may prefer the way it looks to an uncut dick but you'll never know if it feels better.
 

the_reverend

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So it's wrong only because it's used to subjugate female female sexuality? What if mothers want their daughters to be circumcised? Plenty of women in Africa think circumcising their daughters is a good idea because their parents told them it is.

Our parents tell us that circumcising our sons is a good idea too.

Men cutting off parts of other men is acceptable because the social reasons behind it are somehow more noble in your cultural perspective?

And yes, male circumcision can be as analagous to female circumcision. Removing the foreskin is the same as removing the clitoral hood and forcing the clitoris to become an external organ.

You know that band on the underside of the penis? The frenulum? Well that's one of the most sensitive parts of the entire male body. Circumcision usually removes all or some of it. As sensitive is the frenar band. Circumcision removes that entirely. If female circumcision is designed to degrade female sexual pleasure, I submit that male circumcision does the same thing.

You do not know what you are missing. You have never felt the sensations from those areas because they are gone from your body.

Why endanger your son with needless surgery?
Why remove sexually sensitive tissue from his body?
Why do you believe you have the right to remove normal, healthy parts from another person against their will?

why do you believe you have the right to tell me or others what to do? in most cases, female circumcision involves not only the removal of the hood, but of the clitoris itself. i'm not condoning cutting off the head of the penis. and again, i really don't see how i could be missing out on much when sex is already spectacular (and when i hear so many of my female friends complaining about premature ejaculation, maybe too much sensitivity isn't a good thing. :tongue:).

my main point is that i have a differing point of view on the subject. i don't consider yours any less valid nor am i demanding you circumcise your sons or impose my beliefs on to you. so what gives you the right to do that unto others? the only person...the ONLY person...who is going to have any other say in whether or not my sons get circumcised is their mother. and the girls i've dated so far have all preferred circumcised penises, so if that track record holds there probably won't be much dissent. so what business is it of yours? until i start coming at your kid's wang with a scalpel, don't fret over mine.

mmkay?
 

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I believe anyone who sees children being subjected to things they disagree with has a right to stand up for those children who can't stand up for themselves. Forty years ago if the net had been around there'd have been parents arguing it was in the child's best interests that they were punished by being beaten with a belt, now no one would defend that position. In another forty years we'll look back and view circumcision in the same light. Altering another's body without their explicit permission is assuming you have rights of ownership of that body.
 

the_reverend

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reverend, you say in one of your posts that you prefer being cut but how would you know? What do you have to compare it to? If you had been cut later in life, fine, but you were cut as a newborn so have no comparison. You may prefer the way it looks to an uncut dick but you'll never know if it feels better.

as i've said a few times already, nor do i care. because it feels great. no, i don't know personally. just from talking with uncut friends who described the pros and cons of it to me. and after considering what they said, i realized i like how it looks, how it feels, everything about it. i'm proud of my cock. if my parents had decided to leave it be, i might be just as proud or i might've stormed into a doctor's office when i turned 18 and said "get rid of the damn thing." no way to know one way or another...but what i can be fairly certain of is my belief that no one here or in the government has the right to get involved in what is, for many people, a fundamental religious ceremony and for others a tradition or custom. that would remain true because those are the values i was brought up with.

i was cut and i'm fine. none of my friends who were cut have any complaints whatsoever (at least, not about that :wink:). so i don't see it as this grand evil that so many people here are attempting to portray it as. i think it can be a good thing, and i'll pass that on to my sons. and that's mine and my future wife's decision, not anyone else's.

I believe anyone who sees children being subjected to things they disagree with has a right to stand up for those children who can't stand up for themselves. Forty years ago if the net had been around there'd have been parents arguing it was in the child's best interests that they were punished by being beaten with a belt, now no one would defend that position. In another forty years we'll look back and view circumcision in the same light. Altering another's body without their explicit permission is assuming you have rights of ownership of that body.

and again, the parallel to abortion comes to mind. because i'd say "death" is a pretty big alteration to someone's body, not to mention their mind and soul. so are those pro-life protestors in the right to stand outside of abortion clinics and use scare tactics to drive people away, refusing to open their minds to any other points of view and shouting down any dissent because in their minds they're protecting the children?

i disagree about the forty years analysis you've given. it's been thousands of years since the custom was put in place. it's evolved and progressed and been refined over the years, but it's still here. most of the people i hear complain about it, at least amongst men, are uncut. the majority of those of us who went through it are doing just fine, thanks.
 

SpoiledPrincess

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Human rights have been viewed very differently in the last hundred or so years, we've seen women's suffrage, the battering of your kids outlawed, female genital mutilation outlawed in many countries, it's only recently that the viewing of wives and children as chattels has been advanced. Forty years was a conservative estimate, it will be banned.
In England unless you move in Jewish/Muslim circles it's actually hard to find a doctor that will circumcise, they have the freedom to refuse to carry out a medical procedure they disagree with ethically. I have three friends who are gp's none of them will circumcise.
 

the_reverend

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Human rights have been viewed very differently in the last hundred or so years, we've seen women's suffrage, the battering of your kids outlawed, female genital mutilation outlawed in many countries, it's only recently that the viewing of wives and children as chattels has been advanced. Forty years was a conservative estimate, it will be banned.
In England unless you move in Jewish/Muslim circles it's actually hard to find a doctor that will circumcise, they have the freedom to refuse to carry out a medical procedure they disagree with ethically. I have three friends who are gp's none of them will circumcise.

and that's entirely their right and i applaud them. just means i'll have to make sure to find one who will. :biggrin1: that, or marry a Jewish girl. which i'm fine with. dated a couple, neither had much of a problem with me being a goyim. :cool:

and i disagree about it being banned here. or if it is, it's going to be indicative of some even more serious problems in the culture. at which point i take my family and move up into the mountains. :tongue:

anyway, i think i'm done here. you're clearly not going to change my mind and i'm not even trying to change yours. so we're just going back and forth and getting nowhere. the popular image of the child screaming at a braying donkey to describe an interent argument comes to mind (i call the donkey! ;) ). besides which, i'm just rather bored with the whole thing. i can see why so many others were frustrated when this thread went up. i only just endured it for a few pages, i can only imagine how bored those who've witnessed it for the umpteenth time must feel.

peace out. enjoy your fleshy bits. :p
 

hawkgirl

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I made my ex husband get circumcised and he preferred cut to uncut. This was after 32 years of carrying around his foreskin. He said that sex felt much better and that he never knew what he was missing and was glad he'd done it.

Took him about a month to heal to the point that we could have sex. He was in terrible pain for the first week and a half to two weeks. I had to take care of him and he popped pain killers all day long just to be able to barely move abound. His friends teased him. He had to take medicine every time I cleaned him and he would still scream.

Yet and still he was glad that he'd had it done after he healed and was able to have sex.
 
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deleted15807

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I made my ex husband get circumcised and he preferred cut to uncut. This was after 32 years of carrying around his foreskin. He said that sex felt much better and that he never knew what he was missing and was glad he'd done it.


Oh my goodness a circumcision satisfied customer. Let me mark the calender. They are not supposed to exist. I mean from reading above this simply cannot be possible. The foreskin literally unlocks sexual pleasure for all involved.
 

Dave NoCal

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It continues to amaze me how vehemently attached cut guys can be to the idea of cutting babies. People can talk about appendectomies, tonsilectomies, tattoos, piercings (including the peircing infant girls ears) and take in new information and ideas. I truly don't understand it. Why is it such an emotional topic?

I guess you could say that I am emotional about it but my opposition is congruent with my general beliefs and values about the individal's human rights, right to self determination, sexual freedom, and the idea an individual's body (yes, even a baby's) belongs to him or her and should only be altered due to actual medical necessity.

What are the general beliefs and values that support RIC?