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Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by MisterMark, Sep 17, 2003.
If you chose "None of the above", please let us know who you do support. Thanks!
gigantikok: I'd make a pretty safe bet that the Democratic nomination will go to Howard Dean.
Longhornjok: I am interested in seeing what General Clark's campaign does, now that he's in the race. I think Dean's too liberal for the majority of the electorate, so I'm not sure he'll get it, Gig.
mindseye: I agree in part with Longhornjok here -- it's way too early to hand over the nomination to Dean. Dean was smart enough to start very early and build momentum, but the early starters often run out of money and momentum part-way through. (Two examples: In the New Hampshire primaries, Paul Tsongas beat Bill Clinton in 1992, and McCain beat Bush in 2000.)
On the other hand, I disagree with his assessment that Dean is "too liberal" for the electorate. I think an electorate that's increasingly frustrated with Bush's handling of both domestic and foreign affairs is a lot more open to the idea of change than he gives them credit for.
I don't think Bob Graham has much of a chance, but I wouldn't be surprised if the winner chose him as a running mate in order to have a Floridian on the ticket.
hawl: Hope no one minds another John Kerry plug-www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/. Compare his experience, let alone his electability, with any of his opponents. At least Dean seems to have gotten a lot of people excited, but I hope he's just the rousing opening act. I don't see anything wrong with Dean being the Vice-Presidential nominee.
gigantikok: Well, all I know is what I see, and I see ALOT of support for Dean on my campus. I'm in Utah of all places, and I see alot of student support for Dean. He's getting them interested. Then again, many students are allergic to voting...
Longhornjok: [quote author=mindseye link=board=99;num=1063826281;start=0#3 date=09/18/03 at 23:26:21]I disagree with his assessment that Dean is "too liberal" for the electorate. I think an electorate that's increasingly frustrated with Bush's handling of both domestic and foreign affairs is a lot more open to the idea of change than he gives them credit for.[/quote]
I didn't say a lot of voters aren't open to change; I don't think Bush has it sewn up at all. It's just been a long time since a liberal or even a moderate liberal has been elected to the Presidency in this country. Clinton was somewhat liberal as governor, but he moved to the center in order to win the election. As a rule, the primary voters tend to be more impassioned partisans, so each Party sometimes nominates a candidate with more extreme views (left or right). They almost always have to tone that down and move to the center for the national election, though. Clinton did it, Bush did it... well, Bush claimed to do it, etc.
aj2181: [quote author=gigantikok link=board=99;num=1063826281;start=0#5 date=09/19/03 at 16:43:39]Well, all I know is what I say, and I see ALOT of support for Dean on my campus. I'm in Utah of all places, and I see alot of student support for Dean. He's getting them interested. Then again, many students are allergic to voting...[/quote]
Your right Gig, I've seen the same thing in Indiana on my campus. I see bumper stickers with Dean for President on them I think to myself "where the hell did those come from!" I am surprised by the early support for Dean, but as Mindseye pointed out he hasn't won the nomination yet.
Geez its hard to find anything to disagree with so far...you guys seem to have hit all the nails square on the head
I hate to say this but I want the Democratic nominee to be someone who can win. I'm willing to forgo having a liberal nominee........I want a victory!
hawl: "Too liberal" is not the key issue. I think the central problem with Dean, and the one that keeps being overlooked by his supporters, has always been his lack of serious experience, especially in foreign policy. While Kerry and more recently Bush have been playing global and domestic hardball in D.C. for years, Dean has been what, Governor of Vermont? That's like saying you've run a successful retirement community! In this "wartime period", experience-wise he makes Bush seem like an elder statesman. The Republicans have been licking their lips like wolves for so long about Dean that their lips are chapped :-[.
Longhornjok: Well, I dunno that being governor of Arkansas makes you any more worldly than being gov of Vermont.
gigantikok: Ha, good point, LHJ.
Today, I caught a squib on Dennis Kucinich on CNN. Of all the candidates, for me he is the unknown. I do not agree with him on free trade, but I do understand his frustration on the loss of manufacturing jobs in the U.S.
He is the first candidate that I have heard that would levy a payroll tax (around 7%) to pay for universal health care. Wow....what a liberal idea! Or is it practical conservatism? In January or February, I went to a workshop in which the topic was on regaining the competitive edge in manufacturing. The most interesting presentation was on GATT and how in this decade, the U.S. would have to address/adopt a system of universal health care in order to remain competitive. huh? As I remember, the crux is that employer-sponsored health plans in the U.S. are considered a benefit under GATT. Discretionary expenses may not be used in the determination of the cost to produce a product; e.g., steel. However, a payroll tax for univeral health care is an expense and can be used to calculate costs. To level the playing field (according to GATT) and to regain/maintain economic competitiveness, it is likely this will be a hot issue. I am glad someone is beginning to talk about it.
SpeedoGuy: [quote author=Longhornjok link=board=99;num=1063826281;start=0#9 date=09/19/03 at 18:47:46]Well, I dunno that being governor of Arkansas makes you any more worldly than being gov of Vermont. [/quote]
or gov of Texas, for that matter!
We need another Republican candidate to give moderate and liberal Republicans a choice.
Poverty rate up, median income down for second straight year [Dallas Morning News headline, 9/26/03]
Oh yeah, another big story in Dallas is arrest for shop lifting a $1500 wallet and other things; the woman was selected by Vogue as the best dressed in Dallas. So maybe Dubya really does need to do something to aid the wealthy so the crumbs can trickle down....like abolish taxes for all incomes over $100,000. Life is tough when the well-dressed have to use a five-finger-discount to maintain a lifestyle.
Maybe we need another Republican candidate...to inject sanity into a failed economic policy. Would it be too much to expect someone articulate and intelligent?
hawl: This seems like the most realistic appraisal of the current state of things-www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/3151.htm. Note that this cynical native New Yorker (I love the fact that he is a close cousin of both Roy Cohn and Jules Feiffer!) points out that while Bush is in serious trouble, he isn't yet if Dean is his final opponent. This article cheered me up about Bush's opposition seemingly getting their act together and having no patience this time with divisive clowns like that loser Ralph Nader-www.villagevoice.com/issues/0339/goldstein.php.
awellhungboi: Hmm, although I think he makes some good points about how weak Bush is, I don't believe, given his career and personal history, anything Dick Morris says. That Post article you link to, rrrrrr, reads like just more vaguely disguised Clinton bashing to me. (The Clintons are behind Clark! He must be stopped!!) I think there is some genuine excitement and curiosity about Clark. Although Gen. Clark may still blow it, what career cynics like Dick Morris miss is how refreshing a non-politician candidate can be to many voters. I think Mr Morris picked up more from Roy Cohn's side of the family tree, than Jules Feiffer's.
On another note that others have raised, it's pretty rare for an incumbent prez to have someone from the same party run against him. Think of the damage Ted Kennedy did to Jimmy Carter in 1980, or the trouble Pat Buchanan gave ol what's his name in 1992. If Bush continues to fumble, I wouldn't be surprised, though, to see some Republican upstart jump in. It probably wouldn't be McCain, but rather somebody trying to make a name for him or herself, and get a future job as a commentator on Fox.
awellhungboi: Oh, a clarification to my last post. When I say 'how weak Bush is' I mean how vulnerable he now appears to be in next year's election, not how much power he has. He is probably the most powerful President since Lyndon Johnson.
Solis24: I'm not a US citizen but I would go for Dean. "too liberal" doesn't exist where I come from, considering that the US has pretty much always been further to the right than any government that we've ever had in Canada (and we never get anything but somewhat right or center-right). Amen to Monstro in saying that Clark must be stopped for being the Clintons diversion in this game, Clinton were diguised republican anyway, no matter what he might have said before getting elected he promised nice things on one side and actually did the opposite... Someone with true interest in mending the holes from within the country instead of cavorting around the world with big words and big tanks should be supported, as far as I'm concerned... Voilà...
awellhungboi: Thanks, Solis, but actually I'm a Clark supporter. I was just offering an example of what I took to be the upshot of Mr. Morris' article, when I wrote (The Clintons etc. etc.) I should have put it in quotation marks, to make that clearer. I believe the claim that the Clintons are behind Clark to be completely spurious. Bill Clinton made a very disappointing move to the right in large measure because of the advice he received from Dick Morris after the disasterous, (for Democrats,) mid-term elections in '94.
Don't get me wrong, there are powerful forces and organizations behind Clark right now--but not Bill Clinton--rather the people behind Bill Clinton. I think Clark can win, and I hope he does, although in theory my own positions on things are a lot closer to Dennis Kucinich's.