Yours truly being accused of thinking about doing something violent

zgrog2000

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You mentioned that your future as a writer was in peril because the school is censoring you. I'd recommend that you attempt to fit into the fairly wide boundaries that society has established as normal behavior and finish your basic education. Trench coats are fine if you are in a trench or in a really bad storm and don't want to get your nice clothes wet but they really aren't normal.

You've got a lot time to venture outside the bounds of "normalcy." You need to learn to follow the rules before you start to make your own.

If other kids are talking about you it might be time for a self examination and see what you can do to fit in to normal behavior patterns while still expressing yourself.

It is difficult to branch out if you haven't built a good foundation.
 

AndrewEndowed24

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It always amuses me to see a purposefully provocative writer express moral outrage when people are actually provoked. Do you think that the subject of violence, or any other potential subject of fiction would be the least bit interesting if it didn't strike a cord with the real world in which most of us live? If fiction were merely fiction, i should see no reason to trouble myself with it as it would have no effect, neither enriching nor diminishing, my experience of life. The delusional controversial writer often wants it both ways, he uses (or perhaps exploits) frightening subjects to infuse his work with power and yet cries foul when people are legitimately frightened -but if fictive violence were unable to frighten, it would be impotent and useless in art. My point is that in a world in which everyone assumes an immitigable gulf between fiction and life, his writing would no longer be controversial or even interesting. Buck up and be thankful as a writer that there are still people you can offend, it means you still have a shot at being paid for it someday. I wouldn't be surprised if your work benefited from the paranoid atmosphere of our public schools, you have to recognize that you benefit from the existence of the attitudes you are deriding, a meditation on violence would be pretty trite if voiced in the wider world, but in the public schools it gains the power of the protest piece. It's sort of like the way Solzhenitzyn doesn't read so well now that Communism is on a rapid decline.
 

AndrewEndowed24

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This observation isn't directly related, but i'll give it anyway. I've noticed an unhealthy extension of the idea of artistic and intellectual freedom occurs when we actually give intellectuals and artists a free-pass, indulging moral turpitude and a lack of logical rigor, so long as their ideas are new and creative. This seems to me to be utterly backwards, we are asking less of intellectuals than we ask of ordinary citizens -allowing them to be a good deal worse than the rest of us- shouldn't we instead ask more from them and hold them to a higher standard?
 

hypolimnas

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Don't let school interfere with your education.



I have some advice if you wish to criticise intellectuals.

1. Consider the conventional usage of capital letters.

2. Check to see that you have structured your sentences properly.

3. Consider using evidence to support any opinions you may have.

These three things can give the impression that you have received a basic education, and that you may be worth listening to.
 

AndrewEndowed24

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hypolimnas said:
Don't let school interfere with your education.



I have some advice if you wish to criticise intellectuals.

1. Consider the conventional usage of capital letters.

2. Check to see that you have structured your sentences properly.

3. Consider using evidence to support any opinions you may have.

These three things can give the impression that you have received a basic education, and that you may be worth listening to.

In response to 1: You're calling me out on capital letters? Either you're joking or you are in fact a joke.

2: Please, if you can't parse my sentence structure you should ask a grownup to read my post out loud to you.

3: This isn't an academic research journal. There is plenty of precedent on this board for simply presenting a view point and leaving it at that.

And on that note- isn't it a bit hypocritical of you to present yourself as an authority on how to go about criticizing intellectuals in as much as you haven't presented any evidence to support such a claim? The view you are presenting is actually a good example of what I am criticizing, your eagerness to insulate intellectuals from criticism is indicates that you too are a subscriber to the popular notion that intellectuals should be treated with kid gloves, as if they were 'innocents abroad'. No one would say that I should use a simple sentence structure or capital letters if I were criticizing say garbage men... but for intellectuals, the popular perception seems to be that special rules apply because they are special people. But this is obviously absurd, intellectuals are in less need of such paternalistic protection than most groups and are probably more capable of directly defending themselves against various criticisms than others.
 

madame_zora

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DC_DEEP said:
Here's a pertinent question for everyone: What is the purpose of going to school? Let me knock two misperceptions out of the way from the start.

If the goal is simply to download a bucket o' knowledge and facts into our little brainpans, that's what libraries are for.

If the goal is to prepare you for a career, apprenticeships would still be the norm for any chosen profession.

So, what does that leave? If school is redundant for learning facts, and redundant for learning trade skills, what purpose does K - 12 (and to a lesser degree, college) serve?

Babysitting. As long as your kid doesn't "act out" and eats his cookies and milk like a good little boy/girl in this "don't rock the boat" institution, he'll get along just fine.
 

DC_DEEP

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madame_zora said:
Babysitting. As long as your kid doesn't "act out" and eats his cookies and milk like a good little boy/girl in this "don't rock the boat" institution, he'll get along just fine.
You misunderstood my question. I'm not asking "what purpose does it serve," I'm asking "what purpose should it serve?" Everyone is so quick to criticize the public schools, but no one is willing to offer solutions. What SHOULD the schools be doing?
 

madame_zora

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DC_DEEP said:
You misunderstood my question. I'm not asking "what purpose does it serve," I'm asking "what purpose should it serve?" Everyone is so quick to criticize the public schools, but no one is willing to offer solutions. What SHOULD the schools be doing?

That's not really fair, they should be doing what they did when I was in school- teaching kids what they needed to learn with regards to the basic subjects, and getting them interested in things that suit their talents to prepare them for work or further education. They should be encouraging curiousity with the world, as well as the thinking process. I am positively aghast that so much changed in two short decades that the entire purpose and function of schooling no longer exists. I know this is not impossible, because it already happened with me.

I really don't think it's too much to ask in a state where we have a fucking lottery to supposedly support the school system that the politicians get their fucking greedy paws out of it so we don't have to rely on people voting to increase their property taxes to support the schools systems. What happens with the levies is that people who don't have school aged children just won't vote for them. And really, why should they? We're all well aware of the theft of the school money, so why would we throw good money after bad, knowing those tickets we scratch off aren't doing their jobs anyway? What would make us believe the tax levies aren't going straight into someone's pockets, like Taft and Noe?

What needs to happen is accountability from an independant review board for the money, and the school's performance. Underperforming schools should be brought up to standards, lest they lose their funding. Academics need to be prioritised over fucking sports- my daughter's school actually cut a zoology course the same year the vice principle bought a big screen tv so they could watch playbacks of the football games in style. Fucking obnoxious!

The thing is, most of the residents here know how much money has been stolen and how badly the education system is suffering for it. We're just not willing to throw good money after bad to a bunch of liars and thieves. We also know how unlikely it is that ANY of the money will be returned, or anyone actually prosecuted, this shit's been going on too long. My daughter actually had some text books that were written in the 70s! Someone needs to strangle the fucking republicans here, but the sheeple just can't quite connect the dots as to who the theives really are, despite the overwhelming evidence- just like everything else in this goddamned country right now.
 

DC_DEEP

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madame_zora said:
That's not really fair, they should be doing what they did when I was in school- teaching kids what they needed to learn with regards to the basic subjects, and getting them interested in things that suit their talents to prepare them for work or further education. They should be encouraging curiousity with the world, as well as the thinking process. I am positively aghast that so much changed in two short decades that the entire purpose and function of schooling no longer exists. I know this is not impossible, because it already happened with me.
Keeping in mind that basic subjects can be learned outside the school, and vocational or professional skills could be taught in apprenticeships, I think your statement, which I highlighted above, is the biggest part of it. Yes, high school classes should impart some knowledge, but their purpose really should be learning how to learn. Another important aspect of school is something like an apprenticeship in living in society. I don't agree with rules for the sake of rules, but having some guidelines is important - both for maintaining order, but more importantly, to teach the concept that there will always be rules.
I really don't think it's too much to ask in a state where we have a fucking lottery to supposedly support the school system that the politicians get their fucking greedy paws out of it so we don't have to rely on people voting to increase their property taxes to support the schools systems. What happens with the levies is that people who don't have school aged children just won't vote for them. And really, why should they? We're all well aware of the theft of the school money, so why would we throw good money after bad, knowing those tickets we scratch off aren't doing their jobs anyway? What would make us believe the tax levies aren't going straight into someone's pockets, like Taft and Noe?
Alright, now you may preach to the choir. It is the same in every single state that has a state lottery. In order to get the idea of "gambling" past the fundies, they claim "all revenues beyond basic administration will go to the schools." None that I know of have seen it yet. Teacher pay in every single state of the union is just absolutely pathetic. Teachers, across the board, have the lowest pay-to-training ratio in the country. No other profession that requires that level of education, and that level of licensing, and that level of continuing education, and that much paperwork and documentation, and such long work hours, pays so little. It infuriates me that money earmarked for education goes elsewhere, the schools remain underfunded, and the criminals/politicians get off scott-free. It infuriates me that a small rural school district will hire 7 coaches, 4 full-time coaching assistants, 2 part-time coaching assistants; while they have one half-time music teacher (to teach general music, vocal music, and instrumental music), one full-time art teacher, three english teachers, two science (chemistry, biology, physics, general science) teachers, two history teachers, one business/typing teacher, one vocational teacher, and two math teachers. What kind of priorities is that? The athletics department has a gym that puts Gold's to shame and each team gets new uniforms every year, but the physics teacher has to show a video for some of the lab experiments because they don't have the equipment?
What needs to happen is accountability from an independant review board for the money, and the school's performance. Underperforming schools should be brought up to standards, lest they lose their funding. Academics need to be prioritised over fucking sports- my daughter's school actually cut a zoology course the same year the vice principle bought a big screen tv so they could watch playbacks of the football games in style. Fucking obnoxious!
Every school district in a "lottery state" should be receiving the funds promised. Forget an independent review board, every lottery needs to be audited by an independent accounting firm, and every politician who has misappropriated funds needs to do prison time. Hard time. Schools that do not perform up to standards doesn't necessarily need to lose funding, but an action plan must be developed, and if performance does not improve, then those responsible for implementation of the action plan should be replaced. Teachers need to be relieved of the burden of policing so that they can teach. Parents and students both need to be held accountable for the students' performance and behavior.
The thing is, most of the residents here know how much money has been stolen and how badly the education system is suffering for it. We're just not willing to throw good money after bad to a bunch of liars and thieves. We also know how unlikely it is that ANY of the money will be returned, or anyone actually prosecuted, this shit's been going on too long. My daughter actually had some text books that were written in the 70s! Someone needs to strangle the fucking republicans here, but the sheeple just can't quite connect the dots as to who the theives really are, despite the overwhelming evidence- just like everything else in this goddamned country right now.
Of course the residents know how much money is being embezzled. But they keep re-electing the same crooks. Here's another of my wonderful "novel ideas": hold the politicians accountable for school improvement. Any politician who claims "we just don't have the money for the schools" better have a good explanation, right? Reorganize the local school boards so that they are made up of classroom teachers, not the local bankers, politicians, and farmers. Have them rotate on the school board for a fixed term, then back to the trenches.
 

DC_DEEP

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By the way, Madame and others, no one has yet answered my question. Apparently a teacher is in the wrong if they overreact to a student's work of fiction. But if a student turns in an especially graphic, violent story, and the teacher does nothing, would you blame the teacher if the student did actually act out his story and go on a shooting rampage? Would anyone accuse the teacher of "missing the warning signs?"
 

dolf250

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DC_DEEP said:
You misunderstood my question. I'm not asking "what purpose does it serve," I'm asking "what purpose should it serve?" Everyone is so quick to criticize the public schools, but no one is willing to offer solutions. What SHOULD the schools be doing?
I will relate my experience with one English teacher who actually wanted us to learn. It is not what I would necessarily advocate for the entire educational system (it would be impossible to implement in science where you need labs and such) but he was the only teacher I had that seemed more concerned with what we could LEARN than what we could recite.
In his class if you did not like your mark on any assignment you were free to rewrite it and submit it again until the end of the term. You could rewrite it several times and would be graded on each effort. I know that many students did not take advantage of his generous offer (I can only imagine the extra work for him of grading and then going back and changing marks) but some did. It also taught people that in his class, at least, you were ultimately responsible for your grade. He said he was more interested to see that you could learn with each new attempt than saying that you did poorly on your first try and getting a low grade. He made an impression on me that learning and the final result of what you could learn on your way was more important than what you do on your first attempt and I tried to carry that thought outside of school and into life.

As for the question of what should the educational system be doing I would like to see them concentrate on the process of learning rather than reciting. If a child does poorly on an assignment because he did not understand the Pythagorean theorem it would seem that it would benefit him to be allowed to learn it rather than giving him the next assignment that not only relies on his basic understanding of the theorem but builds on it. I know that some of this is impractical for already overworked (and as you pointed out, underpaid) teachers, but the system does not seem to be working as it is presently set up.
 

DC_DEEP

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Thanks, dolf, I think you are starting to get the idea here.

Now, class, your assignment for tonight is to summarize the membership on the school board for your local district. How many? What occupations? Term lengths? And what are their qualifications to make policy decisions for the school district?
 

mephistopheles

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madame_zora said:
Here's an irony: LINittanyLion, he posted LITTANY of people and things the angels came to address, why did YOU take it so personal? Do you see musicians or mall-goers complaining?

Actually, in schools where sports are a big deal (like Colerain High School where my daughter went) sports players are DEFINITELY treated like idols- they get passed through classes whether they show up or not. If you're NOT into sports, you are discriminated against in very obvious ways. This might not be happening in your school, but it is certainly NOT an unknown phenomena.

No one's taking a stand against people who play sports, but why on earth would it be unfair to take a shot at the ones who use their "hobby" to elevate themselves above others? You're smarter than this, why did you take a few words out of the context of the whole sentence?

Well, I believe he's got a biased opinion, personally.

Lintannylion, you played sports in highschool, you've already mentioned this... so how do you know what its like to be the guy that ppl dont like becuase he doesnt play sports? And you think it's not true, but i can tell you right now, just becuase you dont know that it was going on doesnt mean that it wasnt going on.
 

AndrewEndowed24

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Our education system is not primarily for the service of individuals as such but is designed to promote certain useful (and dare I say it, good) societal tendencies. It's coercive properties are in fact it's primary virtues. We see that the presence coercion (which is reduced the higher you go) is the primary difference between schools and other educational institutions (such as libraries) that are explicitly voluntary and for the individual's enjoyment, and it also show us why they are irreplacable by those voluntary institutions. The fact that education does benefit individuals who have it 'inflicted' upon them is an ancillary benefit, but it is also one of the reasons they haven't been scrapped like other institutions that require complete altruism, so this factor is significant.
 

D_Sheffield Thongbynder

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What is the purpose of public education? Its original intent was to educate the citizenry into capable voters, and that essentially meant making people literate; it did a good job of that. In the past hundred or so years, however, public schools have been designated as the panacea for all of society's problems, and because of these impossible expectations, the system has been programmed to fail. It can't realistically be expected to be parents, to train for professions, to teach students how to cope with personal and societal problems, etc. Mandates have also required school systems to address every student's physical, mental, and emotional needs needs, and the amount of paperwork involved is staggering. My gf teaches in public schools and is a dedicated, outstanding teacher in a largely successful system that works in spite of the impossible tasks it is asked to accomplish.

That said, because the assigned task of creating a functionally literate society is so vital to a democracy, there must be accountability. Poor teachers should be weeded out, school boards shouldn't be allowed to intefere with trained educators, and communities need to be empowered to insist that their reasonable needs are being met. The latter does not mean ceding their parenting responsibilities to schools,

As for M's situation, everyone on this board could probably cite personal examples of poor teaching, insane decisions by administration, unresponsive/inept teachers, ad infinitum. He is a smart kid who will persevere, and so will the flawed system. It's the best we can hope for given the contrsaints and outrageous expectations heaped upon it. I can think of no other profession that is expected to be all things to all people for so little compensation in return.
 

D_Herin_Ghan

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madame_zora said:
Here's an irony: LINittanyLion, he posted LITTANY of people and things the angels came to address, why did YOU take it so personal? Do you see musicians or mall-goers complaining?

Mme. Just to clear something up, my name LINittanyLion stands for Long Island (where I'm originally from) Nittany Lion (the mascot of my university...PENN STATE!).

madame_zora said:
Actually, in schools where sports are a big deal (like Colerain High School where my daughter went) sports players are DEFINITELY treated like idols- they get passed through classes whether they show up or not. If you're NOT into sports, you are discriminated against in very obvious ways. This might not be happening in your school, but it is certainly NOT an unknown phenomena.
True enough, that being said..the elevated status of an athlete also brings much unwanted attention in high school, which was the basis for my argument as well. In my school, musicians most certainly got preferential treatment..it was the athletes the administration was out to get.

madame_zora said:
No one's taking a stand against people who play sports, but why on earth would it be unfair to take a shot at the ones who use their "hobby" to elevate themselves above others? You're smarter than this, why did you take a few words out of the context of the whole sentence?

Because it's a misguided assumption on his part. He wasn't talking about kids knowingly using their status to elevate themselves, he used an example of a kid who got away with DUI, which many people have gotten away with before. Especially minors! That was my main point as well. It's not like the kid goes "oh I'm a football player..I'm above the law" that was a case of leniency on the cop.

I still believe this to be a case of jealousy on his part.
 

hypolimnas

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I can think of no other profession that is expected to be all things to all people for so little compensation in return.[/quote]

Some people here will know that I have spent many years training school teachers, and researching aspects of education. There were many dimensions to my work. As well as training teachers, some of my work included assessing their delivery of assessment tasks to students.

I became interested in educational theory while I was at high school. I was curious about the way in which institutionalisation is both controlling, and empowering. I did develop many other research/academic interests as well.

Education should not be regarded as consumer item, like junk food, for example. Students can become interested, and active particpants, in the creation of their own education. I feel, that if they need protein, then a little hunting, and gathering, will serve them well.

Here are some ideas that I still find interesting.

In some situations, in some circumstances, the democratic goal of liberating education can lead to irresponsibility if the students perceive it as expecting less from them. The responsible educator has to be… the teacher, leading as the professor and learning as the student, making an open atmosphere in a number of ways, but never, I repeat, never, an atmosphere of laissez-faire, laissez-allez, never, but a democratic atmosphere yes. Then,by doing that, the students begin to learn a different way. They really learn how to participate. But what is impossible is to teach participation without participation! It is impossible just to speak about participation without experiencing it. We cannot learn how to swim in this room. We have to go to the water. Democracy is the same. You learn democracy by making democracy but with limits.
Paulo Freire, A Pedagogy for Liberation: Dialogues on Transforming Education, 1987: 89-90.

Education either functions as an instrument which is used to facilitate the integration of generations into the logic of the present system and bring about conformity to it, or it becomes 'the practice of freedom', the means by which men and women deal critically and creatively with reality and discover how to participate in the transformation of their world. Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed (1970, 1995).

Any situation in which some individuals prevent others from engaging in the process of inquiry is one of violence. The means used are not important; to alienate human beings from their own decision-making is to change them into objects.
Paulo Freire Pedagogy of the Oppressed (1970, 1995).