Zulu king's circumcision decree

Discussion in 'The Healthy Penis' started by sexplease, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. sexplease

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  2. Gaydoc

    Gaydoc New Member

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    It is of medical importance! In South Africa, at a very minimum, 25% of the general population is HIV positive. Circumcision reduces the rate of female to male transmission by about 50%. I'm not too interested in the Western nut cases out there who want to keep their foreskins in some sort of 21st Century chastity belt rather than lose it, but if a bit of a snip (done under sterile conditions, not one knife fits all...) improves your odds significantly in seeing a birthday 5 to 10 years down stream, hell, get cut for God's sake! HIV in Africa is very easy for 1st World/Western citizens to sweep under the carpet. Over there, however, without adequate medical care or medication, it is one horrendous personal and societal problem. Yes, I'm an MD, and yes, I am pro circumcision.
     
  3. B_Mister Buildington

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    21st century chastity belt?
     
  4. thadjock

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    yeah, the message Gaydoc and others like hiim are selling is:

    once you get cut you can fornicate without fear!

    line up boys, once your foreskin is gone your worries about HIV are over!

    the problem is that this mischaracterization of research will result in increased HIV infection rates, because the real HIV problem in africa is due to underlying behaviours (rampant promiscuity, gang rapes, incest, etc.) none of which will be modified circumcision.

    but go ahead Gaydoc, tell us how evil foreskin is, it's great to have a panic monster on the scene. you really should have just edited your post to the last 4 words.
     
    #4 thadjock, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  5. Smartalk

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    Perhaps Gaydoc could tell us how much he and his colleague's get paid for performing circumcisions. I am sure it would make a difference to his life style with the loss of income, is it any wonder US medics are pro circumcision. Maybe parents would think twice if they had to pay the cost of the proceedure, instead of the medical insurance companies. We dont have epidemic numbers of HIV in the UK considering the vast majority of UK men are left in their natural state.....that being uncircumcised.
     
  6. mandoman

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    Yeah, anybody who wants to have a whole body in the US is a nut case.
    If your Hippocratic Oath was shoved up your ass, you wouldn't know it.
    What does 'first, do no harm" mean to you, when it comes from removing healthy body parts from a non-consenting person? Ever taken an ethics class?
    Or read a study on HIV from Cameroon, Rwanda, Ghana, Malawi, Australia, Canada, etc? You are one ill informed bigot.

    And the answer to the original poster's question is no.
    This is a tribal, cultural, and probably a religious ritual.
    Would you knock the knife out of a mohel's hand, and tell him the kid should be brought to the hospital? There is no medical objective here, it is a cultural ritual.

    The answer to how much Gaydoc pockets, is on the average, $650, for about 2 minutes' work, and ignoring the screams of those who can't protect themselves.
     
  7. B_Mister Buildington

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    Why do you say he is a bigot?
     
  8. D_Cateryke Cheesysmell

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    First post....I was looking for something more substantive than "Hi here's my junk" to enter the board with....guess I found it. Here's my .02 for those who are interested.

    I'm not a doctor but......circumcision has been shown to reduce female to male HIV infection in specific groups (such as those who already have another STD) in several large studies in Africa. Source

    That being said, provided they sterilize the knife/flint/rock or whatever they're using...even in a fire for a few minutes, the risk of HIV transmission from that implement should be close to nil. Accidental castration/mutilation leading to suicide because your medicine man is tipsy off smirnoff is another matter. (yikes)

    I agree that Gaydoc is being a tool. for decades folks have cited vague "health" and "cleanliness" reasons for circumcising infants. If you live in a western country and don't shoot heroin or have bareback sex in a greyhound bus terminal with streetwalkers or Magic Johnson, you will likely never get HIV.

    He is right about the infection rate in SA though. 25% is a lowball estimate everywhere except the richest, most westernized parts of the country. source. They are so far beyoned screwed, they are in the delivery room and starting to dilate....


     
  9. mandoman

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    Female circumcision has been proven conclusively to lower the HIV rate of infection in women, in African studies. Should we implement immediately? I don't hear anybody screaming yes, but with the 3 other incomplete studies, I hear everyone from Gaydoc to the CDC, and the WHO screaming it. Where is the balance, sanity, and basic respect in that?

    Gaydoc is a bigot because he swallowed the kool aid that the foreskin is always wrong.
    American anatomy and physiology textbooks often leave out the foreskin, like it doesn't exist, or won't be there long, anyway. In the 1870's, circumcision cured masturbation, insanity, and paralysis. Later, it was for cleanliness in the trenches of WWI. After that, it was because it is cleaner, and prevents cancer of the penis. Once these two were disproven, now, it is trotted out to fight HPV and HIV, even though circumcised guys have higher HIV infection rates in more than half of the studies done. We have effective vaccines for HPV for men and women. Gaydoc would still have us cutting infants. It's not ethical, the American public is no longer buying it. The Canadians, British, New Zealanders, and Australians all used to routinely circumcise, and now none of them does. They figured out that the money could be better spent, on real cures.
    A real tool for the Africans would be educating them on what causes HIV, and giving them condoms. But this discussion is not about preventing HIV. It is about a Zulu ritual.
    Gaydoc pulled it off track with his little infomercial. It is bias, it is based in ignorance, and it is not a practice beneficial to the American public, or any other public for that matter.
    Nobody needs to have the two most erotic parts of their body amputated or damaged, on the vague, unproven hope that it will benefit somehow, as shown in the studies manipulated by Halperin, grandson of a mohel, who would like to continue his grandfather's tradition in the guise of modern medicine. There will never be a study in America, because it would endanger the easy money machine, an estimated $1 billion a year. Not to mention that the foreskin belongs to its owner, and that it is unethical to remove healthy body parts for profit.
     
  10. SirConcis

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    You cannot compare western lifestyles and values with afircan ones. You cannot apply the cut/uncut statistics of the western world to those in africa.

    In western world, HIV is caught/spread differently than in Africa.

    In Africa, circumcision makes a big difference for young adults because this is the time they have multiple female mates, and when female mates have multiple male mates. If you sleep with 15 women per month, delaying your catching HIV by 6 months will have prevented your spreading the disease to 90 females, and if each female sleeps with 20 males, that is a hell of a lot of people to whom you didn't give HIV. So *ANY* measure to reduce incidence of AIDS is very effective in trying to control the epidemic.
     
  11. dc46064

    dc46064 New Member

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    What is wrong in the world today. Seems like all they want to do is figure out someway to cut up our dicks! Whats the problem here people. God made us , does he make mistakes? Cirm and hiv, this is called a mess....... Its called wear a condom, its that simple.
     
  12. mandoman

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    Right. And if they wore a condom each time, they'd be 99% infection-free.
    If they get circumcised, they'd still get HIV.
     
  13. jmen8229

    jmen8229 New Member

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    I notice the CDC looks to the studies of those African nations that have a higher circ rate and lower HIV rate to say that it is useful in the population at large. However, I have yet to see the study that acknowledges that the US, with one of the highest circ rates in the Western world, does NOT have the lowest HIV rate. I'm no doctor, but something doesn't add up.
     
  14. durbantom

    durbantom Active Member

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    Come on people, It's pointless some of you getting on your high horses, bashing the doctor on this forum, and judging practices and the AIDs pandemic from your 1st world reference points.

    I live in Africa and grew up as a young lad on a farm in Northern Zululand. Although I would be classified as belonging to the white race group, I consider myself a WHITE AFRICAN. My ancestors sailed to Africa 200 years ago from Europe, some took black women to be their brides, and others married women from Europe.

    In the Zulu tradition it is still customary practice to pay for your bride / buy her from her parents for the equivalent of 10 ~ 20 head of cattle.

    Traditional Zulu men's Wealth / status is measured by how many wives you have, AND HOW MANY CHILDREN YOU FATHER. Our county's prime minister, President Zuma has just taken his 5th bride, and is most proud of his achievement, and I'm told, has his sight on another bride.

    Because children are an indicator of wealth or potential wealth, it is very common for an African Zulu woman to fall pregnant by her lover, to prove her fertility.

    The introduction of white Christian missionaries a few hundred years ago, introduced to the Zulu culture, the idea of monogamy, as well as other things like the wheel.

    The wheel was a rip roaring success, but monogamy was not.


    Circumcision in many African regions is NOT routinely performed on infant males, but is a rite of passage into adulthood. The teenage boys have it very tough during their period of training to be a man, and they proudly and WILLFULLY proceed with the circ ceremony. For eternity this ritual has been performed in very remote and rural areas. No shelter, No running water, No bandages, No proper surgical tools, totally inadequate hygene, AND ABSOLUTELY NO OUTWARD SIGNS OF PAIN, NO CRYING OR COMPLAINING.

    Modern doctors are encouraging safer methods of performing this ritual.

    ----

    Circumcision seems to be mandatory for certain tribes, but not for others.

    We have HIV awareness campaigns on TV, RADIO, PRESS, BILLBOARDS. However there is a very strong denial that HIV exits, and certain groups of the population are dying like flies. The funerals at weekends line up at cemeteries. Our province of Kwa Zulu Natal, is said to have the highest HIV infection rate in the world. CONSERVATIVE ESTIMATION IS 42% AND CLIMBING.

    This means statistically in every mini bus people transporter, there will be 5 or 6 HIV + passengers.

    There are complete villages devoid of people altogether / inhabited by babies and children up to 12 and very old people. All of the productive adults have MYSTERIOUSLY died.

    It is thought by medics, (who are working mostly for free as volunteers through international health organizations.) that the uncircumcised penis, sometimes traps vaginal fluid under the foreskin. The longer HIV+ fluids are in contact with the fragile mucous membranes of the penis, the more chance there could be of HIV transmission.

    Condoms dished out by the health department are not popular at all. 1) Size is said to be too small. 2) A white coloured condom does not look at all kewel or hip worn on a brown coloured penis.

    I had the very difficult task of translating to a young Zulu man, who is employed by me, that he is HIV +

    This Zulu man and I are very close - we work together as a team, and because I care a great deal about him and his future, will do everything possible to prolong his good health.

    So in closing, if circumcision in the adult male population makes the circ'd penis skin tougher and prevents female to male transmission by even 1% then several thousand lives would have been saved, and several thousand less AIDs orphans will be on this planet.

    Millions of beautiful children are born and are growing up without adult supervision, proper infrastructure, without family unity, love and nurturing.

    Will these AIDs orphans become sociopaths, and a threat to society in the next generation?

    White passionately African, living on the Eastcoast of Southern Africa.

    Tom Durban
     
  15. durbantom

    durbantom Active Member

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    Condoms are in the towns and cities. Not easy to find rural areas.

    The free ones from the government hand outs, tend to be too small, too tight and too white, and look ridiculous on a dark cock.
     
  16. durbantom

    durbantom Active Member

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    FINALLY, a man with empathy and insight.
     
  17. durbantom

    durbantom Active Member

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    Who dictates that a Zulu must go to, and obey a medical doctor. Witch Doctors / herbalists are esteemed members of the Zulu society, and are even recognised on major medical schemes as medical practitioners.
     
  18. jmen8229

    jmen8229 New Member

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    obviously, castration (saltpeter?) would also decrease the risk of HIV to the general population so I doubt that is the point of the rant

    the problem with HIV, for the most part, is one of behavior. you can promote behavior but you can't control it entirely. so the problem with Africa is that Africans behave in a way that makes them more susceptible to HIV....basically, from what I am hearing, it is in fact "their own fault"
     
  19. durbantom

    durbantom Active Member

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    I don't believe that the doctor is saying "once you get cut you can fornicate without fear! "

    The reality is that most of Africa is in complete denial regarding HIV, death certificates never state HIV as underlying cause of death. Natural causes is stated as cause of death.

    The reality is that the population is fornicating "without fear, or reasoning."

    If getting cut, makes the head skin tougher and less able to transmit the virus, then it will behave as a barrier of sorts to infection, sort of built in condom effect, but undoubtedly less effective.

    I read the doctor's meaning to say " irrespectively, pro-circ, or not pro-circ every little bit of prevention helps." the fact that he just happens to be pro circ, was an aside comment, which could have been left unmentioned.

    For what it's worth, I am not pro-circ with regards infants. It's a choice that the infant can and should be able to decide on when he's an adult.
     
  20. ericbythebay

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    Sex is sex, Africans don't do it differently, so why can't the pro-circ results be reproduced elsewhere?

    Also, the claim is that the rate of female to male transmission is reduced. What about male to female transmission? Sounds like a bad solution to me.
     
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