Zulu king's circumcision decree

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SirConcis

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Female to male happens when HIV gets through the skin of penis. Male to female hapens when male ejaculates.

Condom is the best form of prevention, but condoms only work when they are used ALL THE TIME.
 

gymfresh

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Come on people, It's pointless some of you getting on your high horses, bashing the doctor on this forum, and judging practices and the AIDs pandemic from your 1st world reference points.

Circumcision in many African regions is NOT routinely performed on infant males, but is a rite of passage into adulthood.
Modern doctors are encouraging safer methods of performing this ritual.

But that's not what's happening here. The Zulus did away with circumcision 200 years ago. It is not a part of their culture and certainly not a rite of passage into adulthood or anything else. Prior to this recent decree male circumcision was unknown among Zulus, so they are most definitely not suggesting replacing a dangerous bush procedure with a clinical one.


It is thought by medics, (who are working mostly for free as volunteers through international health organizations.) that the uncircumcised penis, sometimes traps vaginal fluid under the foreskin. The longer HIV+ fluids are in contact with the fragile mucous membranes of the penis, the more chance there could be of HIV transmission.
There is nothing fragile about the moist mucous membrane surfaces of our genitals. In fact, they are hardier than other skin or dried mucous membrane surfaces. They are in fact the primary barriers to microbial infections and a key reason all of our orifices are lined with mucous membrane tissue. It has been shown that once these surfaces have been surgically altered to become exposed and dried out (as with circumcision), the protective component is lost. Moreover, circumcision removes the body's provision of langerin at the end of the penis, a primary natural "neutralizer" of viruses, including HIV.

The "guess" by the medics you mention is nothing more than an attempt to explain the results of 3 (among dozens stating otherwise) RCTs that were poorly conducted and halted early before the data fully converged to show no statistical difference. It was a poor guess, not supported by what is already understood about the nature of mucous membrane surfaces.

Lost in their zeal to promote circumcision is the inconvenient fact that there are 6 African areas in which the circumcised male population has a significantly higher HIV prevalence than the intact male population.

Bottom line: male circumcision does not reduce the FtM HIV transmission rate, but very likely does raise the MtF rate by up to 50%.

I have spent months in South Africa working on this issue, so I understand it reasonably well.

If getting cut, makes the head skin tougher and less able to transmit the virus, then it will behave as a barrier of sorts to infection, sort of built in condom effect, but undoubtedly less effective.

:banghead2: There is no, repeat no, scientific basis for the claim that drying out the mucosal surfaces of the penis renders it more resistant to disease. It was a theory put forth to try to explain otherwise inexplicable study results, but not based on sound facts; it was an intriguing sound bite that resonates with a circumcised population, as in the United States; nothing more.

What has been clinically shown, however, is that circumcised penises are more prone to microtears and microabrasions than intact penises, as dried skin rips more easily than naturally moist mucous membrane tissue, and reducing/eliminating the inherent mobility of penile shaft skin through circumcision increases this risk.

I have spoken with hundreds of HIV program managers in Africa, and the recurrent lament is that the costly proposed circumcision campaigns will wipe out their entire budgets for safer sex education and condoms. It is a tragedy.
 

thadjock

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when you really consider the metrics of sexual behaviour in africa, once you get to 6 degrees of separation (if even that many) a single HIV+ male could easily infect every woman and man in the villiage/tribe in very short order.

as far as i know circumcising a male who is HIV+ does not reverse his status, so what's to be done with the millions of already positive males? I doubt they'd all become voluntary celibate overnight.

though circumcising them would definitely slow them down for a while.
 

ManchesterTom

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But that's not what's happening here. The Zulus did away with circumcision 200 years ago. It is not a part of their culture and certainly not a rite of passage into adulthood or anything else. Prior to this recent decree male circumcision was unknown among Zulus, so they are most definitely not suggesting replacing a dangerous bush procedure with a clinical one.


There is nothing fragile about the moist mucous membrane surfaces of our genitals. In fact, they are hardier than other skin or dried mucous membrane surfaces. They are in fact the primary barriers to microbial infections and a key reason all of our orifices are lined with mucous membrane tissue. It has been shown that once these surfaces have been surgically altered to become exposed and dried out (as with circumcision), the protective component is lost. Moreover, circumcision removes the body's provision of langerin at the end of the penis, a primary natural "neutralizer" of viruses, including HIV.

The "guess" by the medics you mention is nothing more than an attempt to explain the results of 3 (among dozens stating otherwise) RCTs that were poorly conducted and halted early before the data fully converged to show no statistical difference. It was a poor guess, not supported by what is already understood about the nature of mucous membrane surfaces.

Lost in their zeal to promote circumcision is the inconvenient fact that there are 6 African areas in which the circumcised male population has a significantly higher HIV prevalence than the intact male population.

Bottom line: male circumcision does not reduce the FtM HIV transmission rate, but very likely does raise the MtF rate by up to 50%.

I have spent months in South Africa working on this issue, so I understand it reasonably well.



:banghead2: There is no, repeat no, scientific basis for the claim that drying out the mucosal surfaces of the penis renders it more resistant to disease. It was a theory put forth to try to explain otherwise inexplicable study results, but not based on sound facts; it was an intriguing sound bite that resonates with a circumcised population, as in the United States; nothing more.

What has been clinically shown, however, is that circumcised penises are more prone to microtears and microabrasions than intact penises, as dried skin rips more easily than naturally moist mucous membrane tissue, and reducing/eliminating the inherent mobility of penile shaft skin through circumcision increases this risk.

I have spoken with hundreds of HIV program managers in Africa, and the recurrent lament is that the costly proposed circumcision campaigns will wipe out their entire budgets for safer sex education and condoms. It is a tragedy.

Mr Gymfresh, it's great that you visited South Africa for a few months, I have lived in South Africa for 51 years, speak 3 of the 11 official languages and would love to see the solution to the AIDS crisis here.

It would seem that AIDS transmission in Africa is of interest to you, how would you stop the spread of this disease on our continent, if you were given the resources?

Ex President Dr Nelson Mandela was born where the Xhosa tribe come from. The Xhosas and Zulu people have a historical tribal quarrel, but are neighbours geographically. It is MOSTLY the Xhosa people who undertake ritual circumcision, but not EXCLUSIVELY. There are cultural exchanges between neighbouring tribes.

It is a pitty that the honorable Dr Nelson Mandela does not make more of a big deal about the AIDS pandemic. Regardless of who is in the Presidents seat, Nelson Mandela's voice carries enormous clout.

This is a copy of an article www.africanvoices.co.za/culture/circumsicion.htm

A discussion around (traditional) male circumcision in South Africa and how an understanding of the cultural issues involved can help us think usefully about the role of public health in relation to traditional practices.

MALE CIRCUMCISION IN SOUTH AFRICA
How does it relate to Public Health
Kathryn Stinson

"The most widespread form of bodily mutilation is male circumcision".

Ritual circumcision is practised across many cultures in the world and is one of the "most resilient of all traditional African practices within [the] urban industrialised environment". In South Africa, every year, young abakwetha (Xhosa: male initiates) are hospitalised or die from circumcision wounds undergone during traditional initiation rites. Ritual circumcision¹ under some circumstances can put young men at risk of contracting STDs, HIV/AIDS and other blood-borne infections. Countering this, new epidemiological research demonstrates that circumcised men carry a lower risk of contracting HIV than uncircumcised men. Merely from the above, it is indisputable that ritual male circumcision is a cultural issue that is complexly linked to public health.

¹Literature refers to circumcision in this cultural context as male circumcision, ritual circumcision , traditional circumcision or plainly circumcision. In that the act of circumcision is intricately involved in initiation rites, I have favoured the terminology ritual circumcision for purposes of this paper.

Society organises its members into certain hierarchies and groups with defined, distinctive roles. These organisational factors may be political, religious or economically determined and in turn, become guidelines that shape the practices and modes of living, ultimately contributing to a common cultural identity. Expanding on this, culture therefore directs and determines (all) aspects of human behaviour, interaction and belief systems, and is passed from one generation to the next, through articulated ritual, language and symbol.

Rituals are a means for society members to communicate values and ways of living, through psychological, social and symbolic interactions and teaching. Anthropologists categorise ritual in three specific ways:- those which are calendrical, those which address misfortune, and rites of passage . Male initiation rites fall into the latter, and illustrate the transition from boyhood (ubukhwenkwe) to manhood (ubudoda) . In this document, information is largely drawn from the initiation practices of Xhosa-speaking people for the sake of simplicity². No particular age is specified for these rites (boys between the ages of 15-25 undergo initiation), which illustrates that initiation is not linked to physical development and maturity, but is a socially significant act, resulting in the integration into the community and assurance of acceptance and respect from other community members. Initiation is an important social device in dealing with adolescence Ð the training and preparation provided at the initiation schools enables the shift from childhood behaviour to more complex behaviour expected in adulthood (Schlegal and Barry in).

²A review of the literature suggests that ritual circumcision is not exclusively practised by one cultural group (in South Africa). Historically, the Zulu circumcised, but the practice for ritual's sake has largely been modified/abandoned. The Tswana and Sotho and Shangaan-Tsonga also circumcise. Not all Xhosa-speaking groups circumcise, for instance it is not practised amongst the Bhaca, Mpondo, Xesibe or Ntlangwini.

When viewing rites of passage as rituals associated with times of change and crisis in the lifecycle, the ritual becomes a means of re-fashioning a body "at war with itself", with the healing being part of the transformation. Rites of transition involve the stages of separation, transition and incorporation (van Gennep in). Although ceremonies differ across different groups, certain commonalities exist, these including ritual sacrifice, seclusion (entering the bush and building temporary lodge), circumcision, and the painting of the skin with white clay, followed by the burning of the lodge and belongings at the close of the seclusion. Celebrations of the change in status accompany the incorporation of these men into the community.
 

ManchesterTom

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continued......

A profound aspect of the initiation school is the acquisition of cultural knowledge. It is where young men receive instruction in courtship and marriage practices. Cultural expectations regarding social responsibilities and their conduct as men in the community are transmitted and following initiation, men are afforded numerous privileges associated with their status. "Men who've been through initiation are distinguishable by their social behaviour and a particular vocabulary they learn during their time in the bush".

Helman describes that in terms of the physical, a person's status may be inscribed onto their body. Physical symbols placed on or incorporated as part of the body illustrate the relationship of an individual to their social context to the extent that "the body is the tangible frame of selfhood in individual and collective experience". Circumcision is one such example of permanent bodily alteration, which signifies membership to a particular group. Ritual circumcision becomes a health issue when certain problems/factors arise. These can be attributed to the following five factors.

1) The training and competence of the traditional surgeon (ingcibi) Inadequate training can lead to errors in surgical technique, and at times, surgeons have been found to be operating under the influence of alcohol.

2) The sterility and reuse of surgical instruments Traditionally an assegaai is used. Implements may be blunt or reused. This practice has been implicated in the spread of blood-borne infections, such as Tetanus, Hepatitis B and STDs, including HIV/AIDS. As yet, no study of HIV/AIDS in relation to ritual circumcision has been carried out, as youths presenting at hospitals are not routinely tested.

3) STDs Funani notes that traditionally, sex was proscribed before marriage, however, youth are becoming sexually active at an increasingly younger age and therefore there is a higher prevalence of STDs amongst initiates. This is transmitted through the use of equipment that is not sterilised between each use.

4) Aftercare Medical complications occur most frequently during the aftercare period of the initiate. A traditional attendant (ikhankatha) is ascribed to each initiate, and is responsible for bandaging the wound. Ischaemia (starvation of blood supply) or/and infection from the tight thong bandage wrapped around the wound, leads to penile sepsis and gangrene, with subsequent loss of penile tissue. Infection can spread throughout the body and ultimately, Septicaemia is the cause of most deaths from circumcision.

5) Another risk factor is severe dehydration, which is common in initiation schools, because initiates are discouraged from drinking fluid post circumcision. This is not only to prevent frequent urination, but is set as a test of endurance. This taboo, accompanied by climatic factors - initiation schools currently occur more often in the hot summer months, as opposed to autumn in the past - and the use of plastic building materials in lieu of traditional grass and leaves, contribute to a harsh environment that is not conducive to healing.

It is difficult to quantify the morbidity and mortality associated with ritual circumcision in South Africa, as actual numbers of youths partaking in these rites annually is indeterminable. This is largely due to the esoteric nature of the rite and as a consequence, data collection is scant. However, the issue may be illustrated in research carried out by Crowley and Kesner (1990), in which 45 youths presented with varying stages of septic circumcision at the Cecilia Makiwane Hospital (CMH), Ciskei between December 1988 and January 1989, resulting in a 9% mortality rate. Some presented with crush syndrome, indicating that they had been severely beaten, as result of heavy chastisement regarding adherence to the protocols of the school. Those who left the hospital alive, not only took with them penile deformity, but also lifelong psychological scars.

Members of the communities who practise initiation rites are aware of the associated health risks, and mothers in particular are concerned for their sons, yet their traditionally enforced social distancing from the ritual has resulted in a lack of influence on events. Meintjes found that in general, community members were not prepared to own the problem, and considered morbidity and mortality as par for the course. He elaborates that in interviews, people expressed that "deaths and injury were seen as a way of separating out those boys who were not fit to play the role of men in society." Compounding this 'natural selection' technique, another popular belief is that if an initiate suffers medical complications, he has brought it upon himself through some form of wrong doing, and is therefore being punished.

With so much at stake, it is understandable that hospitalisation is strongly resisted by afflicted initiates, and those who do present themselves for medical treatment face the risk of stigmatisation, abandonment by their families and ostracisation by their communities, due to the indeterminable status of their manhood.

It is debatable as to whether health care systems are able to cope with the socio-cultural aspects of this issue. There are conflicting reports on the degree of sensitivity with which it is handled, for instance Meintjes suggested that some health care workers are derogatory and judgmental, sometimes delaying surgical procedures and prolonging suffering in order to let the case resolve naturally, as an unnecessary adherence to cultural expectations and outcome. However, there is a move towards a compromise between cultural and medical perspectives in an effort to improve morbidity and mortality associated with ritual circumcision. In the 1990s, a programme was started in Alice to change the practices of traditional surgeons, with the result of an increased use of surgical scalpels and new blades for each initiate. At the same time, the Eastern Cape Health Department set up the Circumcision Task Team, based at CMH, under the auspices of Charge Nurse Henderson Dweba. The Task Team is sensitive to the fact that for many initiates, it is impossible to leave the school to get medical assistance, so the team treats cases medically in the bush where needed. Apart from this, Dweba runs an education programme that attempts to address the behavioural changes needed to lessen the risks of ritual circumcision, whilst upholding cultural values. For instance, by reverting to earlier traditional practices of arranging schools in the winter months, initiates can avoid the warm and humid conditions that aggravate infections, and by teaching initiates about the stages of wound healing, they are better equipped to pre-empt infection.

Governmental health policy also attempts to provide some protection for initiates. In 2001, the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) conducted preliminary investigations in an attempt to level cultural practice with the Constitution. Whilst acknowledging the positive role of initiation schools as cultural teaching institutions, it concerned itself with the investigation of several apparent human rights violations - for instance transgressions in the rights to life; human dignity; freedom and security of the person and health care, food and water. The Application of Health Standards in Traditional Circumcision Act (2001) attempts to regulate ritual circumcision practices by licensing initiation schools and subjecting them to regular checks by the Eastern Cape Health Department officials. Illegal schools face heavy fines for non-adherence. This attempt to work with traditional structures has provoked animosity amongst traditional leaders, who see it as interference, and the debate has yet to be resolved.

For Xhosa-speaking people who practice ritual circumcision as a cultural institution, alternatives are negligible to non-existent. Initiation is seen as the "formal incorporation of males into Xhosa religious and tribal life", and before circumcision, a male cannot marry or start a family, inherit possessions, nor officiate in ritual ceremonies. Medical circumcisions, performed by health care professionals, who substitute traditional equipment and dressings for medical ones, are deemed meaningless. However, recent literature encourages the introduction of safe measures of circumcision as a "potential public health benefit" in the fight against the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Circumcision, particularly pre-pubertal circumcision, has been associated with lowered risk of STD and HIV transmission. Circumcision as a health care intervention is a low cost and once off procedure, and hence is an attractive option for lowering disease risk, and presents as a problem only in a ritual context when sepsis is a potential health risk. In a South African study conducted by Rain-Taljaard et al, when asked whether they were in favour of circumcision if it were to reduce their chance of contracting HIV and STDs, over half the respondents agreed. The study also suggests a weakening of the cultural significance of ritual circumcision and an increase in the demand for medical circumcision in recent times, however, this was based on research carried out in Nigeria. It would be simplistic to project into the future and wish for such a local trend, when the majority of ethnic groups see circumcision as an integral component of initiation rites {Kauffman, 2004 #33}. More conclusive research into this area of circumcision and HIV/AIDS needs to be done, and more importantly in the interim, health policy needs to do more to creatively address and reduce the mortality and morbidity associated with ritual circumcision, whose strong cultural basis continues to be at odds with Western medical methods
 

gymfresh

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Durbantom, thank you for this information regarding the traditional tribal associations with male initiate circumcision and possible improvements to how it is carried out. I agree that it is imperative to proceed with sensitivity to cultural considerations regarding ritual, and certain logical modifications to how this particular ritual is carried out can significantly improve health outcomes. Some cultures have even embraced the replacement of male and female circumcision with other rituals to mark tribal life transitions, eliminating genital surgery altogether.

My point was that there is a faction that insists the matter is settled that male circumcision, simply the act of removing the male foreskin, reduces susceptibility to HIV seroconversion. It is logical that if this is proven medical fact, then it makes perfect sense in high HIV areas to encourage male circumcision.

The fact, however, is that this contentious issue is not settled. It does not explain how in numerous areas of the world, particularly Africa, intact male populations with very similar social and behavioral profiles have a notably lower HIV rate than neighboring circumcising populations. The mechanism by which circumcision is thought by some to reduce HIV susceptibility is speculative, and in fact runs counter to the known characteristics of the anatomy in question.

I share with you a deep desire to see the AIDS crisis halted. I have a particular affinity for the affected areas of Africa, having spent considerable time there outside of the volunteer work that I mentioned. You ask how I would like to see the spread of this disease slowed or stopped, given the resources.

The fact is that the educational and condom campaigns have had a real impact. Funding was not all it could have been, given the Bush administration's resistance to condoms as one solution. But even more important than these is the idea that HIV infected individuals need to get their viral loads down to undetectable levels, and the drugs to do this exist. Once undetectable, the odds of passing the virus drop dramatically, almost to nil when no other active infections are present. Making these drugs widely available is a difficult but not impossible challenge, and imparting the importance of keeping on a regimen is another challenge.

I'm not saying circumcision works but is objectionable or has less-costly alternatives. I'm saying male circumcision doesn't work against HIV -- indeed, more than one study suggests it may actually increase HIV transmission to women -- so it's precious funds down a rat hole.

The tragedy of the Zulu situation is that circumcision is being introduced into a noncircumcising culture for specious reasons. If it had cultural importance for the Zulu it would be worth examining the contexts in which it could be done safely, but that is not the case here.
 

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I don't know about HIV transmission and circumcision. What I do know is my circumcision has made my head dryer than usual, almaost like a texture. Rarely if ever do I cum off of getting head, takes forever to get me to that point and I can't help but think that it has something to do with being circumcised. Sex is great, but how much better would it feel intact? I'll never know. It should be the choice of the individual, my children will not be mutilated in this way......
 

B_dxjnorto

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Here's an excerpt of an essay by circumcision researcher Robert Darby. I've removed references because they appear far down the page, but I can IM them to anyone who wants them.
_______________________________

Why can’t the United States stop circumcising boys?

People have always eaten people,
What else is there to eat?
If the Juju had meant us not to eat people
He wouldn’t have made us of meat.

— Flanders and Swan, “The Reluctant Cannibal”

The unquestioning acceptance of routine circumcision of a newborn … deserves a hard look and wide-ranging debate.

— Marianne Legato, “Rethinking circumcision”


The pediatrician spent hours resuscitating and assessing the injuries of a boy who had been born unable to breathe, without a pulse, and with a broken humerus and depressed skull fracture resulting from a difficult forceps delivery. He then visited the mother, whose first question was “When can he be circumcised?” Such a sense of priorities spotlights the privileged place of male circumcision in modern America and highlights the difficulties in explaining what Edward Wallerstein has called “the uniquely American medical enigma”: why routine circumcision persists in the United States long after it has been abandoned in the other English-speaking countries which originally took it up. Despite statements from the American Academy of Pediatrics and the College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in 1971, 1975, 1978 and 1983, he noted in 1985 that the practice had abated little. Even today, after further statements in 1989 and 1999, the operation is performed on over half of all of newborns.

An American paradox
The American situation remains a conundrum: why has a custom initiated by our Victorian forebears continued to prosper in the age of medical miracles, and in the world’s most scientifically advanced superpower at that? Some doctors blame parents for demanding circumcision, while parents accuse physicians of suggesting, and even urging the operation, and of not warning them about possible risks and adverse effects. Critically-minded pediatricians admit that the “circumcision decision” is no longer a medical one, but a “cultural ritual”, and call for “the organized advocacy of lay groups … rather than the efforts of the medical profession”, while others object to the interference of “outsiders” in what they insist is a strictly clinical question. Wallerstein felt the practice continued because both “medical and popular literature abounds in serious errors of scientific judgement, equivocation and obfuscation”, with the result that the medical profession is reluctant to take a firm and consistent stand. Although few think there is any compelling value in circumcision, and many regard it as cruel and harmful, doctors seem mesmerised by the force of parental demand and social expectation; like the sorcerer’s apprentice in Fantasia, they watch helplessly as the waters mount, waiting for the master magician to return and restore normality.

The US experience stands in sharp contrast with that of the other countries in which routine circumcision became common. In Britain the procedure was widely recommended in the 1890s, reached its peak of popularity in the 1920s (a rate of about 35 per cent), declined in the 1950s and all but disappeared in the 1960s. In Australia the incidence of circumcision peaked at over 80 per cent in the 1950s, but declined rapidly in the 1980s after statements by pediatric authorities, and now stands at about 12 per cent. The Canadian pattern is broadly similar to the Australian, though the decline was slower until the late 1990s, when rates fell sharply. In New Zealand the procedure was nearly universal between the wars, but fell so precipitately in the 1960s that it now affects less than 2 per cent of boys. We thus face a classic puzzle of comparative sociology: Why did routine circumcision arise in the first place? Why only in Anglophone countries? Why did it decline and all but vanish in Britain and its dominions? Why does it survive in the United States?

Nobody has firm answers to these questions. The rise of circumcision was associated with the “great fear” of masturbation and anxiety about juvenile sexuality generally; the misidentification of infantile phimosis as a congenital abnormality; the rise of puritan moralities in the nineteenth century; dread of many incurable diseases, especially syphilis; and the rising prestige of the medical profession, particularly surgeons, leading to excessive faith in surgical approaches to disease control and prevention. Most of these features were common to all European countries, however, and the factors which provoked the Anglophone Sonderweg remain obscure. (Perhaps language itself is the key.) The fall of circumcision in Britain was associated with the rise of modern medicine, especially the discovery of antibiotics; the decline of anxiety about masturbation; concern about complications and deaths; and the development of a more positive attitude to sexual pleasure. In 1979 an editorial in the British Medical Journal attributed much of the trend to better understanding of normal anatomical development and the consequent disappearance of fears about childhood phimosis.
 

JTalbain

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It would seem that AIDS transmission in Africa is of interest to you, how would you stop the spread of this disease on our continent, if you were given the resources?

I would provide as much money and as many doctors as was neccesary to get the Thai vaccine for HIV which was 31% effective up to 100%.

As has been said though, this is a cultural ritual, it isn't even being done before the children are sexually active, so many of them are already infected. This isn't about a leader instituting circumcision for the proposed medical benefits, it's about a leader using proposed medical benefits from a study to revive a preexisting cultural ritual.
 

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It is of medical importance! In South Africa, at a very minimum, 25% of the general population is HIV positive. Circumcision reduces the rate of female to male transmission by about 50%. I'm not too interested in the Western nut cases out there who want to keep their foreskins in some sort of 21st Century chastity belt rather than lose it, but if a bit of a snip (done under sterile conditions, not one knife fits all...) improves your odds significantly in seeing a birthday 5 to 10 years down stream, hell, get cut for God's sake! HIV in Africa is very easy for 1st World/Western citizens to sweep under the carpet. Over there, however, without adequate medical care or medication, it is one horrendous personal and societal problem. Yes, I'm an MD, and yes, I am pro circumcision.
There is no conclusive scientific evidence for those results. The studies are inconclusive.

People should stop using circumcision as an excuse to mutilate a baby boys penis (have you ever watched this procedure being done? It's horrific). There is no reason for it except religious (vomit) and aesthetic. Want to prevent HIV transmission...? Wear a condom or abstain from sex. Mutilating a penis does not save lives, in actual fact it can kill (traditional healers perform circumcision on young boys, whilst drunk, with no medical knowledge, in dirty conditions).

And that Zulu "King" Zweletini is a good-for-nothing. He recieves R60 million (about US$10 million) every year for his community, yet none of that money is spent on the people. He just spends it on himself and his many wives, so that they may live in luxury.
 

CPTguy87

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I don't know about HIV transmission and circumcision. What I do know is my circumcision has made my head dryer than usual, almaost like a texture. Rarely if ever do I cum off of getting head, takes forever to get me to that point and I can't help but think that it has something to do with being circumcised. Sex is great, but how much better would it feel intact? I'll never know. It should be the choice of the individual, my children will not be mutilated in this way......
Sorry mate, it is. It really sux. i wish parents and doctors would stop mutilating baby boys!

Not having the foreskin causes more friction on the glans, which reduces sensitivity.

Try foreskin restoration, you won't be sorry.
 

CPTguy87

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It is of medical importance! In South Africa, at a very minimum, 25% of the general population is HIV positive. Circumcision reduces the rate of female to male transmission by about 50%. I'm not too interested in the Western nut cases out there who want to keep their foreskins in some sort of 21st Century chastity belt rather than lose it, but if a bit of a snip (done under sterile conditions, not one knife fits all...) improves your odds significantly in seeing a birthday 5 to 10 years down stream, hell, get cut for God's sake! HIV in Africa is very easy for 1st World/Western citizens to sweep under the carpet. Over there, however, without adequate medical care or medication, it is one horrendous personal and societal problem. Yes, I'm an MD, and yes, I am pro circumcision.
Clearly you have no issue with mutilating and causing large amounts of pain to newborns, which already have hypersensitive immune systems. The fact of the matter there is no conclusive evidence on either side, to say that it reduces the risk of infection. Condom use is the most effective preventative measure (besides abstinence).

And the reason why there are so many infections in SA is because our useless ANC government doesn't bother about educating the underprivileged, and there is cultural stigma attached to condom use (white man's evil invention).

How about letting the individual decide what to do with HIS foreskin when he is old enough to make an informed decision.
 

CPTguy87

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It is of medical importance! In South Africa, at a very minimum, 25% of the general population is HIV positive. Circumcision reduces the rate of female to male transmission by about 50%. I'm not too interested in the Western nut cases out there who want to keep their foreskins in some sort of 21st Century chastity belt rather than lose it, but if a bit of a snip (done under sterile conditions, not one knife fits all...) improves your odds significantly in seeing a birthday 5 to 10 years down stream, hell, get cut for God's sake! HIV in Africa is very easy for 1st World/Western citizens to sweep under the carpet. Over there, however, without adequate medical care or medication, it is one horrendous personal and societal problem. Yes, I'm an MD, and yes, I am pro circumcision.
And the rate of infection is closer to 17%... still high but not as high as 25%.

Also, Asia recently overtook Africa in percentage of population that is infected with HIV.
 

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Thank you, DurbanTom, for your concise, informative and unemotional contribution to this thread. I actually learned something in reading this thread, first time since the OP's initial post.

I cuma zimba zimba zia. I cuma zimba zimba zee. I cuma zimba zimba zia. I cuma zimba zimba zee.
 

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It is of medical importance! In South Africa, at a very minimum, 25% of the general population is HIV positive. Circumcision reduces the rate of female to male transmission by about 50%. I'm not too interested in the Western nut cases out there who want to keep their foreskins in some sort of 21st Century chastity belt rather than lose it, but if a bit of a snip (done under sterile conditions, not one knife fits all...) improves your odds significantly in seeing a birthday 5 to 10 years down stream, hell, get cut for God's sake! HIV in Africa is very easy for 1st World/Western citizens to sweep under the carpet. Over there, however, without adequate medical care or medication, it is one horrendous personal and societal problem. Yes, I'm an MD, and yes, I am pro circumcision.

circ. is rape and expect nothing less from a drug dealer. Don't ever take the advice of an MD.
 

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once upon a time no one believed that "germs" existed, and we all thought that contact with any gay male caused AIDS, or even blamed poppers. the medical pro's know what they are talking about.
from a lay persons point, uncut=touch your dick to pee or get UTI.
how many guys wash after pissing? cut=slip it out piss bounce twice whip it back in
no need to touch it, well unless you are a shower
the uncut portion of foreskin is very thin like mucosa of the nose or mouth, easy to infections or virus passing thru it.
well that is what PBC/Nova/discovery channel says anyways :)
if you dont have a culture of prevention, or the money to pay for drugs and treatment
it is the cheapest way to just circumcise
 

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the uncut portion of foreskin is very thin like mucosa of the nose or mouth, easy to infections or virus passing thru it.
well that is what PBC/Nova/discovery channel says anyways :)

Could be important information -- except it's complete bollocks. Moist mucosal tissue is some of the most resilient, disease-resistant tissue on the body, which is why all of our orifices are lined with it. Dried-out mucosal tissue is more prone to tearing and also loses its resistance to viral and bacterial infection.

The TV stations are just parroting the nonsense that they hear some defenders of the African RCTs say. It's not based on any studies.
 

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Perhaps Gaydoc could tell us how much he and his colleague's get paid for performing circumcisions. I am sure it would make a difference to his life style with the loss of income, is it any wonder US medics are pro circumcision. Maybe parents would think twice if they had to pay the cost of the proceedure, instead of the medical insurance companies. We dont have epidemic numbers of HIV in the UK considering the vast majority of UK men are left in their natural state.....that being uncircumcised.

It may be true that the UK doesn't have epidemic levels of HIV/AIDS, but that is also because the general public health of the UK far exceeds that of most African countries. The access to things that help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS (contraceptives/ educational resources/ etc) are not as available to many in Africa. I agree that it should be emphasized that their circumcision is not a free pass to have unprotected sex, but it is for a medically important and, in my opinion, necessary reason. Would you rather decree that all your males have their foreskin safely removed--which kills no one--or not, and let HIV continue to ravage your people, which, needless to say, kills people. The key to public health is prevention, and I support Gaydoc for having his priorities in order. This arms-in-the-air behavior over the loss of a small flap of skin (because it defiles a man's natural state) is ludicrous.
 

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circ. is rape and expect nothing less from a drug dealer. Don't ever take the advice of an MD.

Yes, please continue to ignore your MD's advice, its not like he is trying to save your life and improve your health or anything.

If cutting a small flap of skin saves the lives of others, then, by all means, cut that sucker off. There comes a point where the health of the many is more important than the opinions of the few...oh wait, the health of the many is ALWAYS more important.