Dating a former member of the ab...

[EvilFairy]

So recently I started dating this guy from the South. We get along great, have hella awesome conversations, he treats me very well. He is sweet and always complimenting me and makes me feel wanted. We have lot in common with interests in music and such. I am very attracted to him, and the sex is great. He looks a lot like Edward Norton in American History X... Complete with the swastika tattoo, and a bunch of other tattoos branding him as a racist, and member of the Aryan brotherhood....

I had no idea about the tattoos or Ab membership until we were having sex for the first time. I admit it shocked me a lot. I am mixed race, Mexican, French, Spanish, Italian, and Norweigen. I had told him this when we first started talking. He never indicated it was an issue. As a matter of fact his children are mixed race, as is his ex wife.

I kinda freaked out when I saw them. He noticed and told me he grew up in a very racist and close minded town. He said that he grew up with that way of thinking, and was a AB member for a long time. He says that as he grew older he out grew his former way of life and thinking, and only sees people now not color. I want to believe him.

I am so confused and conflicted over this. This guy is honestly like almost perfect in everyway for me, but I don't know if I can get over the tatts. I know he can always cover them and he has mentioned he wants to do so. He has already covered some of the more extreme ones, but I know they were there.

I don't know much about skinheads/neo nazis/ the KKK or AB, but I do know that the are very strict in their beliefs. I don't know if it's possible for someone to really stop being racist. Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Hatt_101]

Wow. Can't say that I've ever known any body like that but if he's willing to cover them up and says he's changed I guess there's no reason not to believe him. Everyone deserves a second chance right.

 

[giantsfrey]

ask him if he'd be willing to get them removed or covered. it's not always a pretty, cheap or enjoyable process, but nothing worthwhile ever is cheap and easy. if it's important to you, it should be important to him. i'm sure if he had some ex girlfriend's name on his arm, he'd get that inked over or removed, right?

 

[Bigthick7in]

Did you even watch American History X ? It's a example of how how people can change their racists views. Actions speak louder than words. And it sounds like him having been married to a mixed race woman, having kids with her and now dating you is pretty good evidence what he's saying is true. One of the wonderful things about human beings is our ability to change. Perhaps your the one that needs to change and simply accept the person he's become and put away your prejudices about his past lol. Just trying to stir up some further thought.

 

[ronin001]

I have had friends who fell in love and switched their family religions, for the sake of love and marriage.
Think of it along the lines of him being an X convict, who has served his time and now wants to lead a normal life.

Past and Present

All things are possible, good luck

Ro

 

[KennF]

This is an odd set of circumstances to leave out of a relationship. I am not sure my comments are going to make sense or come across as put together as I prefer. But I'm going to give it a shot.

The fact that he grew up in a different culture than you is something that you are going to have to face head on within yourself. The tattoos and extremist upbringing is more than just the tattoos. So, whether he covers them up or not is really immaterial on the surface. It may have some impact on how others interact, but isn't the core issue.

Asking him to cover them up is the same as asking him to deny something that he was a part of him. He may choose to cover them up as a sign that he wants to put it behind him, but that is something he has to decide for himself and should, in my opinion, never be asked of him without a really strong external reason (ie: it is holding him back from getting a job; or; he is embarrassed to take off his shirt or go swimming for fear of exposure; etc...). Your discomfort alone is not, and should not, be enough reason for you to ask.

I would feel that you don't accept me for who I am. That includes the good, bad, and ugly of who I am. And you will set yourself with a personal obstacle for him to overcome. He will never feel 'good enough' if you don't accept him completely for what he was and is now.

You can say, "I hate those symbols and what they represent. I think they are not who you are now. And I love what you have become." Saying it is a way that acknowledges they are in the past.


As for your internal conflict... well that is something you need to deal with. I will share my experience and hope it helps...

My husband was raised by two racists. They instilled a general belief that whites were better. And he jokingly says racist comments to enjoy any get shock value. I don't like the comments and don't give him any 'fun' when he uses them. I've told him I find them in poor taste and they aren't funny. He admits he doesn't feel "that way" but still ... on some level that is how he sees the world. He then chooses to override his upbringing and make a game of out of his upbringing and mock himself. That's how he deals with the fundamental behavior he grew up with.

For me, I also have to accept, that was how he was raised. If I love him, then I have to accept all of what he was, because I can't change it. I can only change my reactions and deal with who he is today. If he behaves like a racist, then I can't accept that. If he behaves like an idiot trying to get attention, then I tell him that. But to ask him to deny his parents and upbringing? I can't do that.

Sorry it is so jumbled and not put together well, but *shrug* I felt it may help you to hear it.

 

[EvilFairy]

I appreciate the feedback. i would never ask him to cover them up, that's something he has to want on his own. I accept the fact that he has changed, and i'm glad cause i think he's pretty awesome. I guess I'm worried about the social thing. I love going to concerts and playing pool and stuff. I have some friends that are of other races. they ave asked me not to bring him along.

 

[KennF]

Well, that may be a loss for them but something your boyfriend should understand. The issue is about perception.

The fact that he is wearing those symbols, if they are showing, people are going to think that he endorses those symbols.

Your reaction is just as critical as his. This may be a topic of conversation, and you should be prepared to respond.

(BTW - This is the reason I don't recommend tattoos in general. You have to live with them announcing your association with the symbol, even if you change your mind later)

 

[622675]

Check out the link. Tattoo removal is an interesting process. Not sure what the cost is, but it appears to be fast and painless.

 

[keenobserver]

From what you have written, I am inclined to believe he has changed - and is not the person who he was when he was attracted to the AB. My hang up is the tattoos. I respect the point of view that he should without any prodding or asking want to remove these symbols on his own. That does not seem likely to happen. If I was you I would have a conversation about the tattoos. My concerns are while he may have changed, he is advertising to the world he has not, and too many people are going to take it at face value that he still embraces very hateful beliefs. For that, given his own signage I cannot blame them. This is going to create barriers for him, you, and his kids. It will affect his employment prospects, housing prospects and social prospects - this will also impact his kids.

My other concern will be that his kids will emulate the tattoos, not really understanding what they mean, simply because they want to be like dad. Tattoos, once obtained are hard to remove.

At one point in his life he cared enough about his bad beliefs and associations to carve them into his skin. If he wants to be away from that, he should want to have them removed. Not covered. Removed. It won't be easy, cheap or fast but it is what is called for.

Having said all of that, I would continue to see him and date him, and allow your feelings to move to their logical, true, heartfelt conclusion. The tattoos would not be a deal breaker for me - at this time. Maybe in the future, maybe never. I say this because asking him to remove them will be a big undertaking and I respect it will likely take him a while to wrap his head around it - if ever.

Love is hard to find in this world, and in the end we are all "warts and all." If he checks all the other boxes that matter to you, then after having a talk about the tattoos, accept what he is and move forward.

 

[Zarathrustra]

Hi, I meant to reply to this yesterday but here I am 24 hours later, which is actually a good thing because it's actually gave me time to look at it slightly differently and although I intend to say exactly the same as I was going to say yesterday I have an addition to it also.

It's understandable the thoughts and concerns that you're having regarding this situation. And ultimately all of what you have said boils down to the fundamental question which you used as a statement in the second to last sentence of your post, "I don't know if it's possible for someone to really stop being racist".

I totally understand where you are coming from here because it would seem reasonable to assume that once a person has had an extreme racist view of the world for a certain amount of time then it becomes an essential part of who they are as a being. It becomes habitual and therefore like all habits that are either good are bad; changing them is not an easy task.

Humans are very complex creatures and very much a product of their surroundings and more so their upbringing. It would be easy for me to criticise racist views and behaviour because I myself am not racist. However I am lucky, as I have been told many times by my friends, in the fact that I was brought up in an environment that was free of racism and predjudice. The major influences in shaping my character did not have these traits, although I did see it happen elsewhere. My best friend from the age of five was my next door neighbour who was black, him and his family were from Bangladesh, to me it was never the colour of his skin that was important, but I witnessed first hand the racism that he suffered and it never made sense to me. Add to this that my Dad was disabled and also experienced a massive amount of predjudice that I became tangled up in and then the picture has been created in which I would never and could never be predjudice in any way whatsoever.

These were my two great gifts that I was given and as I got older I began to think that I was extremely lucky to have been given such amazing gifts. With this also came the realisation that not everyone is so lucky in this way and then thoughts about how a different enviroment would have produced a different me. When you look at the situation that you are describing with your new man it is the exact opposite to mine and could be described as underpriviliged regardless of whether or not it was a financially unstable upbringing. What could possibly be worse than being brought up in extreme circumstances like that and having your character formed for life because of it, a character that was out of step from the rest of reasonable society, and more worryingly that it was all percieved as normal and not wrong at all. To me the fact that your man was so very obviously lost in that world and yet now seemingly isn't makes him absolutely unbelieveably amazing without question.

From the little bit that you did say, it kind of makes sense and follows what I would expect in this situation. Obviously and quite rightly you were shocked by that nazi tattoos and who wouldn't be, they defy all logical explanation. Yet at the same time it was inevitable for you to find out this way and he probably knew it. Should he have mentioned it immediately to kind of 'clear the air'? I doesn't make sense to, it would be strange. Obviously you know him better than any of us and I truly believe that you would know if he was racist, because apart from the fact that you seem like a fairly good judge of character who takes no crap from anyone, plus the fact that you are female and therefore possess superior intuition skills... beyond this the thing that would most show would be an obvious hatred of other races. In my experience with people who are involved in the most extreme right wing groups they don't just dislike ethnic minorities they seethe, they boil internally, there's is more than just an intellectual obscure point of view that seems a bit twisted, it is everything, it is the world, it is the universe and no other matters in existence could come above it. Their commitment to and belief in the cause that they have makes the most devout of religious people look decidedly lazy in the worship of their particular deity. There are plenty of signs on the outside of a pressure cooker that tell you exactly what is going on inside, it's just the way that it is.

So, ultimately you would know if he was still an extreme racist, but like I said at the beggining of my long and rambling reply that wasn't the question you were really asking. You really asked, "I don't know if it's possible for someone to really stop being racist". Anything is possible within realms of homo sapien, human beings have the potential for many amazing feats and this situation if it is as I believe true, is one of those amazing feats. The kind that perhaps only 1 in a million of us could achieve because the odds are so unbelievably stacked against. Most people wouldn't give in, because most people in that situation would not see that anything was wrong in the first place and therefore nothing to struggle against to have the opportunity of giving in.

You seem really happy in your world at the moment and yet understandably this was seen as a potential unexplainable conundrum. Trust your own judgement and I really hope that further down the line this becomes another one the reasons why you think he is awesome and perfect.

Yeah, what I wrote was long long long but hey I got there in the end, I hope I made some kind of sense.

Take care,
Have fun.

Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice

 

[wnjcwjkk]

That's an interesting situation.

I would think that if he truly was completely changed, he would want them covered up. Yeah they represent a significant part of his past, but they represent who he was, covered would represent who he is now. There's also a lot of risk of them causing a stir amongst your friends, maybe even reflecting negatively on you. But that's his choice and nobody else can make it. I would just be worried that it's a sign he may not be completely over that idealogy.

I will say this. A lot of those AB leaders can be very charismatic and they seek out young disillusioned kids, give them a father figure, a family, make them feel wanted, respected, loved? "I've got your back." And they indoctrinate them. These people are in bad situations, so they're looking for something, some group to place the blame on. They aren't bad people, just lost and needing somebody to give them direction. Maybe they didn't get enou love and compassion, so it's hard for them to sympathize with other people, but as they grow, develop, create new bonds, they start to gain a new understanding of people outside their world.

Just watch the documentary Skinheads USA on HBO, you'll see tons of kids like that and the asshole who indoctrinates them and the tactics used.

My point is, all these people deserve a second chance, and forgiveness, IF they show true repentance. Talk is cheap, the only way he could really show that is by covering up those tats, in my opinion.

You gotta learn the root of why he got into that, what changed his way of thinking, what are his views now I that idealog, You gotta ask and find out what reason he gives for not covering up the tattoos. It's just my opinion, but "I keep them to remind me of my past" is a BS excuse, there has to be a deeper reason. Cause it's both that hard to get those removed or changed, hell just put a big red circle with a diagonal line through it lol.

 

[lafever]

So recently I started dating this guy from the South. We get along great, have hella awesome conversations, he treats me very well. He is sweet and always complimenting me and makes me feel wanted. We have lot in common with interests in music and such. I am very attracted to him, and the sex is great. He looks a lot like Edward Norton in American History X... Complete with the swastika tattoo, and a bunch of other tattoos branding him as a racist, and member of the Aryan brotherhood....

I had no idea about the tattoos or Ab membership until we were having sex for the first time. I admit it shocked me a lot. I am mixed race, Mexican, French, Spanish, Italian, and Norweigen. I had told him this when we first started talking. He never indicated it was an issue. As a matter of fact his children are mixed race, as is his ex wife.

I kinda freaked out when I saw them. He noticed and told me he grew up in a very racist and close minded town. He said that he grew up with that way of thinking, and was a AB member for a long time. He says that as he grew older he out grew his former way of life and thinking, and only sees people now not color. I want to believe him.

I am so confused and conflicted over this. This guy is honestly like almost perfect in everyway for me, but I don't know if I can get over the tatts. I know he can always cover them and he has mentioned he wants to do so. He has already covered some of the more extreme ones, but I know they were there.

I don't know much about skinheads/neo nazis/ the KKK or AB, but I do know that the are very strict in their beliefs. I don't know if it's possible for someone to really stop being racist. Any advice or comments would be greatly appreciated.

You're just dating him, testing the waters let's say.
Just make sure you're not dating him for all the wrong reasons, like pissing off your parents just for kicks for example.
Think about how the relationship will strain you and your family before you get too serious.
Know this, you'll never know if he loves you for who you are or loves dominating you because of who you are.
If you're curious about the future and starting a life and or family with this guy look no further than his path with his ex-wife and kids, chances are greater than not you'll fair as well as they have with him.
Until he get's all his racist tats covered you'll never really feel in your heart that he's changed, cover ups are a quick and easy way for someone to show you that they've moved on.
Getting tats removed is an excuse, it means that they're still a part of that person.
Know that forgiving others is the path to righteousness and that forgetting is the conundrum.
With that being said.
If you believe that he loves you enough for you to risk your future and you're going to give this guy a chance that he probably doesn't deserve and thus grace is bestowed upon him with a chance to start a new life with you then take his ass down to the tattoo shop and get his shit covered up.
Make him choose, you or the tats.
If he throws it up in your face about you giving him an ultimatum you say to him you're damn right and ask him, Am I not worth it?
Because you are, worth it in every way imaginable.
Least not forget, you're the catch.

C.

 

[lafever]

Lest not forget!

Sorry, about any typo's.

5(five) F$@&'n minutes is not enough edit time, some of us are multitasking(hint).

C.

 

[KennF]

It's just my opinion, but "I keep them to remind me of my past" is a BS excuse, there has to be a deeper reason.

I am curious where you interpreted his reasons for not covering them up.

Yeah they represent a significant part of his past, but they represent who he was, covered would represent who he is now.

You ask great deal of someone when you ask them to deny their past or cover up their past. And your expectation that he should just do it to show the world only shows that you don't accept him for what he is now.

It has to be his choice to change his branding, and it has to be his desire without any ultimatum. If she comes in and says, I can date you because of the tattoos, then she doesn't accept him. He didn't change from the moment she met him. Only her perception of his childhood changed.

 

[KennF]

Lest not forget!

Sorry, about any typo's.

5(five) F$@&'n minutes is not enough edit time, some of us are multitasking(hint).

LOL AGREED!

 

[longandskinny]

"True repentance"? "Path to righteousness"? LOL is this place turning into a Christian forum?

 

[longandskinny]

Let's be realistic: what matters more to you, being with this guy or the approval of your friends? That will tell you what you should do.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

The term "repentance" is not just relegated to Christianity, it's about showing remorse for past actions and a resolve to change. I'm sure you knew that, not being snippy here, but I am definitely not Christian, spirituality to me is a private, individual thing.

No, I don't feel like looking back at my post lol, but I thought I said she (or he?) should find out what his reasoning was, somebody else mentioned that as a possible reason, I was saying I felt that just wasn't a good reason, but yeah you're right, not my place to decide. No assumptions made on my part though, even if it sounded like it.

Very intriguing topic though, something I never really thought about.

 

[wnjcwjkk]

But yeah, it is asking a lot to ask someone to deny or cover up their past, no doubt.

But also, these symbols (I'm assuming stuff like the swastika, the SS tattoo, the 88 (double H for Heil Hitler) etc.) carry with them a history of brutality, concentration camps, stomping blacks, Jews, gays, etc. To some, they represent the superiority of whites, others will say they are ok with other groups, but think whites should stay amongst their own. So they represent more than just his past, they represent an ideology (and yeah, you could say they represent whatever the wearer feels they represent to him, which is completely valid).

Out of context, without hearing his explanation, these tattoos make a pretty clear statement to anybody who sees this. So you need to take into account wether you're okay with that.

You also have to take into account that if these tattoos would, in fact, alienate you from your friends, and this guy recognizes that, but still doesn't mention he's considering having them changed, is he worth investing in a relationship with. I know that I want my S/O to be close with her friends and family, I would never want her to isolate herself to be with me, if the reason was something that I could easily change.

I'd be curious, if he weren't open to the idea of removal, why is that too much of a sacrifice to him, whereas he feels it's okay for you to sacrifice other relationships.

Also, on that token, how good would friends be if they couldn't accept somebody who they know makes you happy?

Also, is he worried about what his kids would feel about his tattoos? I'm genuinely curious to hear more of this guy's story.

Not making any judgements or assumptions, I make an effort not to do those things, I'm just posing questions for you based on the information given.

Let us know more. Not that I'm getting entertainment from your personal life lol, but I'd like to discuss more, hear more of your and his thoughts, it's a fascinating situation to me.


There was a time when I was younger that I was fascinated with the Neo Nazi, Skinhead movement, I wanted to find out what makes them tick, like Scientology, Serial Killers, Mormons, Taliban, etc. etc. (NOT saying any of those are comparable, just that it's a culture that I want to understand).