Bareback

According to the sexual health doctor I've seen lots of straight identifying men believe that HIV is a gay disease. These same men then have bareback sex with other men, but because they are straight they can't catch it... :worried: Lots of them have wives.:tired_face:
 
Following the results of Partner, Partner 2 and other studies. We now have a situation where the guys presenting the llowest risk of someone catching HIV from barebacking are...

POZ guys who are on meds and long term undetectable.

Followied by guys on prep.

Second highest risk are those depending upon the test results and others being "cleans".

Why you may wonder. Quite simply because the only guys who know their status with absolute certainty are poz.

Everyone else is potentially 3 months out of date. They could go get their negative test result, walk out of the door and pick HIV up the same day. Meanwhile they can potentially be going around shagging believing themselves to be negative and they aren't.

This not a criticism of anyone doing bb - I do. But try and get a better understanding of how to assess the risks.

This may not be quite right, but it seems to me that the "undetectable poz are the safest" take depends on an assumption that poz people are more trustworthy than neg people.

Here's how it seems the risk would play out if we assume all of the types you mentioned are trustworthy:
-Undetectable poz would be a remote-to-nonexistent risk.
-On PrEP would also be a remote-to-nonexistent risk, assuming the person actually takes the pill consistently (this follows from this hypothetical person being assumed to be trustworthy).
-The testing-dependent scenario would be the same as well, if the person had not engaged in any risky behavior in the three months preceding the test and since the test.
-The only risky scenario would be if the tested person had engaged in risky behavior since three months before the test.

Here's how it seems the risk would distribute if we don't assume trustworthiness:
-Poz person could be lying about any number of factors (including undetectable status), and so the risk would be considerable.
-PrEP person could be lying about consistency of taking his/her pills, and so the risk would also be considerable.
-Tested person could be lying about test results, and so the risk would also be considerable.

What am I missing here? If my evaluation is correct, it seems like the critical difference is primarily in whether the individual is trustworthy, not in what the person's claimed status is.
 
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What am I missing here? If my evaluation is correct, it seems like the critical difference is primarily in whether the individual is trustworthy, not in what the person's claimed status is.

You aren't missing anything but my way of thinking on this goes as follows.

1) Guys who are not on PrEP.

A tiny number of infected people will still test negative at three months, as they are slow to sero convert, so this isn't completely reliable but, on the whole, it's good enough. If you receive a needle prick injury when working with blood that potentially has HIV (this happened to my mother) testing at 6 months is required to completely rule out HIV infection.

Lots of guys who aren't on PrEP don't understand the whole window period malarkey. If you're finding a random person to have sex with, on somewhere like Grindr, then they are most likely engaging in regular casual sex. This isn't always the case, but on the whole, I wouldn't trust someone to remember the exact date they last had a shag unless they had texts, or similar, in their phone, to remind them. Some won't have had sex for a long period of time, because they don't have casual sex, so with them there's nothing to remember. It could have been well over a year and they've been tested within the last month or so. These people should be guaranteed to be negative but, unless you're in a relationship with them, you aren't going to have sex with them.

2) Guys who are on PrEP.

This should theoretically be incredibly safe but it has been shown that being forgetful is a thing. If you're taking it one pill a day, and have been taking it for months, then missing one day, every once in a while, isn't going to do much. It has been shown that taking 4 pills a week, they call it the Ts and Ss, (you take pills on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday) also provides an excellent level of protection. So if you accidentally go down to 6 pills a week, when you forget a dose, it's not really that much of a problem.

The guys taking PrEP know that they need to do this so they don't get HIV. Thus the incentive to remember to take it is high. Nevertheless this is a risk you take when trusting someone. If you are talking to someone about barebacking with them and they mentioned they are on PrEP, either in their profile, or during the conversation, then it's wise to ask them questions about it. Say things like you're interested in taking it yourself and get them to talk about it with you, discussing side effects they had, how long they had to wait until they were told it was safe to go bareback, where did they get the pills, how can you go about it etc. Know this information yourself before you talk to them. If they don't know a lot about it, take forever to answer, as if they are looking the information up, or seem stingy with the conversation, don't meet with them.

3) Guys who are HIV+ but UD.

There's stigma attached to this. A whole lot of stigma. No one is going to advertise themselves as HIV+, undetectable or not, if they really are HIV negative (or believe that they are). If someone wanted to trick you into barebacking with them then they'd try pulling fast one by lying about being on PrEP or lying about their recent HIV tests/recent partners. In the first case they'd scare away lots of men who don't understand UD means untransmittable and make the job of hooking up even harder.

No one with HIV wants to give HIV to anyone else unless they are insane. It's also illegal to lie about your status in a situation where you know you're HIV+ and are going to engage in any activity that could infect someone. People who take PrEP know that taking it stops them from catching HIV, it's a good incentive to take it. But those with HIV know that taking their pill(s) stops them from dying. An even bigger incentive to take them if you ask me! So they are unlikely to forget, or will have timers/reminders set up so that they really don't forget. There is the slim chance that an UD person might not be UD due to forgetting meds or their status having changed since their last check-up, but this is unlikely.

Besides their status, what else could a positive person be lying about? If you're going to have sex with them the only thing you really care about is if they are in fact UD or not. And, as I said before, lying about that is illegal. It's also fairly simple to ask a HIV+ person when their last check-up was and what medication they are on. Ask questions about it to see if they have the right answers. Most HIV+ UD people are perfectly aware that there's stigma and are perfectly happy to discuss things, if it helps put your mind at ease, before fucking with them. Just be polite and friendly. If you are polite, and friendly, and are met with incorrect answers, question dodging, delayed responses, or just the person turning hostile, block/forget about them. This isn't someone you want to be meeting with. Heck this isn't someone you want to be meeting with for any reason lol, let alone sex.

Though my absolute number one piece of advise is to ask if said person is drunk or high. First of all their dick probably won't work well in either state and no one wants to play with that. Secondly substances affect the brain and you don't want someone, with an impaired state of consciousness, answering your questions about their sex life.

No one is perfect, we all forget to ask certain questions before meeting up with someone some of the time, god knows I have, but just be careful and if anything feels weird don't go.
 
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Thanks man. Can't remember the last time I used one.

My philosophy is that a guy worth fucking is a guy worth breeding. If I can’t shoot in his hole, I’d prefer to just jerk off.
 
I like how you think. What’s yours?
Spot on, if a guys worth fucking he's worth doing bareback, and if a guy thinks I'm worth fucking then its going to be rubber free so I feel his spunk inside me, and if he wants to add another load all the better. Most loads probably about 9 or10 in a cave and I confess I couldn't keep it all in


DD ANOTHER
 
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Spot on, if a guys worth fucking he's worth doing bareback, and if a guy thinks I'm worth fucking then its going to be rubber free so I feel his spunk inside me, and if he wants to add another load all the better. Most loads probably about 9 or10 in a cave and I confess I couldn't keep it all in


DD ANOTHER

So hot. I’m almost always a top and the sloppiest hole I ever had was with 13 loads. IML a few years back. Guy after guy unloaded and I was so lucky to be next to last. The only problem with a sloppy hole like that is the tops get off faster and faster once they know how much cum they are churning.
 
You guys, I don’t know and I don’t think it’s the appropriate topic for this matter, but I’ll shoot my shot because I have literally nobody to talk to about it.

I’m 28 and I didn’t have sex (anal penetration) since 2012. I’m usually a bottom but I always have the fantasy to fuck a dude. I did it last week (22/12) for the first time with a guy that I met on Grindr. (Basically it was a booty call).

He had a huge kink for fisting. So I did it to please him and then I made the biggest mistake of my life. He took my penis close to his rump and I put it right into his bootyhole (without condom or prep). I fucked him a lil bit (for about 1 minute approximately) but raw. (Without cumming or visibly precumming)
After another fisting session, he asked me to fuck him again, I ask for a condom and I fucked him again with a rubber this time.

However now I’m scared for my life and I’m highly remorseful for fucking that unknown dude raw. I don’t know why I wasn’t strict the first time. I think I was so « eager » to fulfill my fantasy, that I disconnected any type of discernment in that moment.

I’m really afraid to being HIV infected in consequence. I keep repeating the events since last week and now I feel that my life took a weird turn. As if, my life wasn’t the same anymore.

I’m more of a romantic, lovey/doves type of dude; I despise booty calls, because I’m not comfortable enough with sex to doing it regularly, plus I need to care about the man with who I share my body with to be really turned on. I wanted to see what having random sex was about, but while I had a great pleasure doing it, I feel that I also made the biggest mistake of my life.

Now, after just one week, I have a sore throat, as if I’m about to catch a cold (which a sign of primo-infection). I know a lot of external factors could play in it. It’s winter, I live in France, there’s COVID, etc... but still. I’m more afraid than ever and despite bareback could be fun for some, to me, it turned to an absolute nightmare.

I’m really sorry to kill the party’ but again I have nobody to talk to. Thanks in advance for those who took the time to read me.
 
First of all you need to calm down. Take a slow deep breath. Hold it for 5 seconds. And Slowly breathe out. Do it again.

One week is a bit too soon, as far as I understand, to be exhibiting symptoms for the acute, initial, infection stage of HIV. It usually takes about 2 weeks for anything to happen. So relax. If you've got a sore throat it is most likely for the bunch of other reasons you mentioned above. But if we're talking about STDs it's far more likely that you've got Gonorrhoea in your throat than anything else.

When it comes to HIV transmission, topping carries less risk than bottoming. There is also the fact that only doing it for a few seconds will reduce the amount of virus you would, potentially, be exposed to vs fucking him for hours. It takes a certain amount of any virus/bacteria for you to get sick. It's known as the infectious dose. Recent research has shown that it's impossible for you to get HIV from a HIV+ sex partner if their viral load is undetectable. When you have sex with them you are still exposed to HIV, it's just not enough of it to get infected. There is also the fact that repeated exposure to HIV (having bareback sex often) apparently increases your chance of actually catching it, vs just a one off.

Basically the above means that things could have been worse.

What you need to do now is keep calm and wait. If the sore throat doesn't go away within two weeks a trip to a sexual health clinic might be a good idea. You will need to wait 6 weeks, from the date you had sex, before you can have a HIV test that will do any good. You will then need to retest after another 6 weeks just to make sure. Most doctors and sexual health clinics would be happy to consider you HIV- after both your 6 and 12 week tests come back negative. But if you wanted to be absolutely sure another one at 24 weeks (6 months) would be completely unequivocal.

Now onto the other part of you feeling bad about having a hook-up. We've all been there. Even those of us who enjoy hook-ups. We've all had bad ones we regret. But this is experience. Part of me thinks you are mixing up the worry of HIV with the fact that you say you are a romantic lovey/dovey kind of guy. There's nothing wrong with wanting to experience different aspects of your sexuality before you get into a relationship. In fact I highly recommend that people do. That way you learn what you enjoy, what you don't and learn what you need to be sexually satisfied. It's much better to learn that before you start a relationship and then have to endone because he doesn't like sucking dick and you need blow jobs in your life to be happy.
 
Just to amplify a bit of @MancmanMatt 's excellent advice above:
My husband of 32 years was VERY sexually active in Washington DC in the early 80's just before AIDS became a pandemic for our generation of gay men. BUT, he was always a top. He sucked a lot of dicks and fucked a lot of different guys and was out most nights of any week. He has never tested positive for HIV. He's part of a major longitudinal study of HIV negative and HIV negative men and has been tested every 6 months for 35 years.
Almost all of his friends died, but a few are still living very well with the medicines developed in the last 20 years. He was the only one in his peer group who never bottomed.

I think your chances of getting Covid or one of the other STDs are much higher than getting HIV.

Again, breath deeply. AND continue to have fun!
 
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I'll just add to this I have a friend who is HIV+. He became infected years ago and before the common wisdom was that it's best to treat early. This was around 2004.

Back then they would let the disease progress naturally and as long as you were healthy they would leave you alone.

Well my friend was in a long term relationship with this guy for five+ years. My friend is a total bottom and his boyfriend always topped. They didn't use condoms and the top never got HIV either. Take from that what you will.
 
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If nothing else it has stimulated some good debate that, for once, has included the aspects many would rather ignore and NOT think about - such as proper interpretation of an HIV test result.

Also that HIV treatment is light years beyond what many who have no direct experience of HIV believe it to be. Hell, there are those that still think it a death sentence. Late onset diabetes can be far far worse!

For me it still comes down to some very simple things :

1. Make sure you REALLY understand the risks by keeping up to date with accurate information from sites such as TheBody: The HIV/AIDS Resource and i-base.info (some others are less reliable due to their dependency on funding from condom advocacy).

2. Don't leave leave it up to the other person to tell you their status. Whatever the law says in your country, ultimate responsibility for your health is YOU.

3. If you want to know the other person's, ask direct questions, not this ambiguous "clean" claptrap.

4. Be clear in your own mind about what level of risk you are willing to take.

Make your own decisions and don't leave it up to someone else.

Having done all that, short of someone deliberately setting out to infect others - we have just such twisted individual rightly languishing in one of our prisons - accept the fact that whatever the outcome, you are 50% responsible.

If can't accept that responsibility, perhaps bareback is not something you should be doing....

If can do all the above (including taking responsibility for your own deco) HAVE FUN
 
You aren't missing anything but my way of thinking on this goes as follows.

1) Guys who are not on PrEP.

A tiny number of infected people will still test negative at three months, as they are slow to sero convert, so this isn't completely reliable but, on the whole, it's good enough. If you receive a needle prick injury when working with blood that potentially has HIV (this happened to my mother) testing at 6 months is required to completely rule out HIV infection.

Lots of guys who aren't on PrEP don't understand the whole window period malarkey. If you're finding a random person to have sex with, on somewhere like Grindr, then they are most likely engaging in regular casual sex. This isn't always the case, but on the whole, I wouldn't trust someone to remember the exact date they last had a shag unless they had texts, or similar, in their phone, to remind them. Some won't have had sex for a long period of time, because they don't have casual sex, so with them there's nothing to remember. It could have been well over a year and they've been tested within the last month or so. These people should be guaranteed to be negative but, unless you're in a relationship with them, you aren't going to have sex with them.

2) Guys who are on PrEP.

This should theoretically be incredibly safe but it has been shown that being forgetful is a thing. If you're taking it one pill a day, and have been taking it for months, then missing one day, every once in a while, isn't going to do much. It has been shown that taking 4 pills a week, they call it the Ts and Ss, (you take pills on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday) also provides an excellent level of protection. So if you accidentally go down to 6 pills a week, when you forget a dose, it's not really that much of a problem.

The guys taking PrEP know that they need to do this so they don't get HIV. Thus the incentive to remember to take it is high. Nevertheless this is a risk you take when trusting someone. If you are talking to someone about barebacking with them and they mentioned they are on PrEP, either in their profile, or during the conversation, then it's wise to ask them questions about it. Say things like you're interested in taking it yourself and get them to talk about it with you, discussing side effects they had, how long they had to wait until they were told it was safe to go bareback, where did they get the pills, how can you go about it etc. Know this information yourself before you talk to them. If they don't know a lot about it, take forever to answer, as if they are looking the information up, or seem stingy with the conversation, don't meet with them.

3) Guys who are HIV+ but UD.

There's stigma attached to this. A whole lot of stigma. No one is going to advertise themselves as HIV+, undetectable or not, if they really are HIV negative (or believe that they are). If someone wanted to trick you into barebacking with them then they'd try pulling fast one by lying about being on PrEP or lying about their recent HIV tests/recent partners. In the first case they'd scare away lots of men who don't understand UD means untransmittable and make the job of hooking up even harder.

No one with HIV wants to give HIV to anyone else unless they are insane. It's also illegal to lie about your status in a situation where you know you're HIV+ and are going to engage in any activity that could infect someone. People who take PrEP know that taking it stops them from catching HIV, it's a good incentive to take it. But those with HIV know that taking their pill(s) stops them from dying. An even bigger incentive to take them if you ask me! So they are unlikely to forget, or will have timers/reminders set up so that they really don't forget. There is the slim chance that an UD person might not be UD due to forgetting meds or their status having changed since their last check-up, but this is unlikely.

Besides their status, what else could a positive person be lying about? If you're going to have sex with them the only thing you really care about is if they are in fact UD or not. And, as I said before, lying about that is illegal. It's also fairly simple to ask a HIV+ person when their last check-up was and what medication they are on. Ask questions about it to see if they have the right answers. Most HIV+ UD people are perfectly aware that there's stigma and are perfectly happy to discuss things, if it helps put your mind at ease, before fucking with them. Just be polite and friendly. If you are polite, and friendly, and are met with incorrect answers, question dodging, delayed responses, or just the person turning hostile, block/forget about them. This isn't someone you want to be meeting with. Heck this isn't someone you want to be meeting with for any reason lol, let alone sex.

Though my absolute number one piece of advise is to ask if said person is drunk or high. First of all their dick probably won't work well in either state and no one wants to play with that. Secondly substances affect the brain and you don't want someone, with an impaired state of consciousness, answering your questions about their sex life.

No one is perfect, we all forget to ask certain questions before meeting up with someone some of the time, god knows I have, but just be careful and if anything feels weird don't go.
This may not be quite right, but it seems to me that the "undetectable poz are the safest" take depends on an assumption that poz people are more trustworthy than neg people.

Here's how it seems the risk would play out if we assume all of the types you mentioned are trustworthy:
-Undetectable poz would be a remote-to-nonexistent risk.
-On PrEP would also be a remote-to-nonexistent risk, assuming the person actually takes the pill consistently (this follows from this hypothetical person being assumed to be trustworthy).
-The testing-dependent scenario would be the same as well, if the person had not engaged in any risky behavior in the three months preceding the test and since the test.
-The only risky scenario would be if the tested person had engaged in risky behavior since three months before the test.

Here's how it seems the risk would distribute if we don't assume trustworthiness:
-Poz person could be lying about any number of factors (including undetectable status), and so the risk would be considerable.
-PrEP person could be lying about consistency of taking his/her pills, and so the risk would also be considerable.
-Tested person could be lying about test results, and so the risk would also be considerable.

What am I missing here? If my evaluation is correct, it seems like the critical difference is primarily in whether the individual is trustworthy, not in what the person's claimed status is.

You're not missing anything.

As I think I put at the end of one of my earliest posts under this topic :

Ultimately it always comes down to one simple thing - to what degree do you believe what the other person(s) told you, and to what degree do they believe you?

Trust - which can be both justly earned, and misplaced. Irrespective of orientation, sexual position, HIV status or even your favourite colour lol
 
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I love taking a bare cock but for a random hook up it’s just irresponsible to not use a condom with a new / random sexual partner. People lie, I am not going to take your word for it. If it’s a regular, trusted fuck buddy then I would relax the rules but not for a one time hook up.