circumcision debate

Discussion in 'The Healthy Penis' started by D_Rod Staffinbone, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

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    #1 D_Rod Staffinbone, Mar 26, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
  2. matt121matt121

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    I always hate when I see these studies, as they are so flawed its not even funny.

    I agree with the UK, the US medical professions do seem to have an addiction to circumcision, they have been using it as a cure all for everything for decades.

    If you look at the history in the past they've said it cures everything from masturbation to insanity, all of which have been proven wrong, only after millions of infants, boys, and men, are subjected to the practice.

    And what they don't tell you is that the US has one of the highest HIV rates, and one of the highest circumcision rates historically overall, now how would you explain that?

    My theory on this that is just my personal opinion, is that due to the higher circumcision rate, it makes guys penis's less sensitive to sensation which makes guys less inclined to use condoms every time they have sex. I know from personal experience the VERY few times that I have had unprotected sex, that it was a MUCH more pleasurable experience than with a condom.

    I'm cut looser than many guys, but I still know that I have had a sensation loss, and I think that circumcision actually causes me to masturbate more than I normally would since it is extremely hard to feel fully satisfied, and I also believe that it could be a contributing factor as to the reason why I'm GAY.

    I can't begin to imagine how circumcised straight guys who have only ever participated in heterosexual sex must feel, since personally for me the majority of my sexual sensation, especially if I'm going to be able to have true orgasmic sensation does not come from my dick.
     
  3. Box_Man

    Box_Man Member

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    i'm sorry but god, can we please not start another one?
     
  4. jjsjr

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    thank you, boxman!!


    there are plenty of threads with great points and opinions...
    many pages long.

    Just run a quick search, trust me, you'll find plenty.
     
  5. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

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    too much is not enough.
     
  6. lokican

    lokican Member

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    I don't know what you mean by it being a contributing factor to you being gay? I don't see the connection
     
  7. Phil Ayesho

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    Actually, those are pretty stupid things to suggest a linkage to.

    Of course- it was NOT adopted for any of those reasons, but to combat the spread of syphilis and gonorrhea. And, In fact, during the period in which it was most prevalent- 15 years after adoption, the US did have the lowest rate of tranmission of those diseases in any western country.


    In point of fact the US has nowhere near the highest HIV rates, in the heterosexual community, its among the lowest.

    The high rates in the gay community are well understood to relate to the combination of secondary infections, drug use, and rampant promiscuity that defined the gay community in the 70s, when the disease spread the fastest.

    Epidemiological studies show clearly that widespread sterile circumcision reduces transmission rates ( for example- Israel has one of the lowest HIV rates of all )

    The risk factors that raise the rates are intravenous drug use... and promiscuity.
    Africa is greatly plagued simply because in most African cultures it is fairly normal for a man to have a wife AND at least 2 concurrent mistresses.
    Whereas in the west most infidelity is short lived and sporadic.

    This may not seem like a big difference, but its at least 2 orders of magnitude an increase in the number of pathways for transmission to progress.
    Like having the critical number of interlinked computers that allows a virus or worm to spread like wildfire.



    Okay, in the second paragraph you CONDEMN people for making stupid excuses and association regarding the benefits of circumcision...

    And yet in this paragraph you opt to make the exact same kind of unsupported and hyperbolic associations regarding the detriments of circumcision.


    Try working from a fact based argument. Unless you were circumcised AFTER you became sexually active, you have no basis on which to form any belief about a loss of sensitivity.
    You have no basis on which to suggest that circumcision results in less frequent use of condoms.
    No basis on which to suggest it results in greater masturbation.

    Its just shit you said that reflects an insupportable bias on your part.

    Most men who get circumcised later in life report INCREASED sensitivity, not decreased. However... a great many of these men are seeking circumcision because they have phimosis or some other malformation of the foreskin that complicates their sexual performance.
    i.e.- given the common reasons for late circumcision, you would EXPECT the data to show a bias for men who think it has improved their sexual function.

    Thus, since the foreskin is as vestigial in humans as is the appendix or wisdom teeth, we can fully expect a very high rate of complications in these no longer really useful structures, as genetic drift sets in.

    For many, their wisdom teeth come in with no problems- for others, they must be cut out or pulled to prevent a host of painful conditions.
    For the appendix... many have it their entire lives... but for some, having it removed is a matter of life and death.

    Likewise, the foreskin is a feature with a high complication rate born of its high genetic variability. (i.e. no useful function providing selection pressure to keep its formation within a functional range )

    For many men circumcision is enormously beneficial... for other it may make little or no difference.

    But we absolutely KNOW that the foreskin is vestigial, and unnecessary. And we absolutely know that its removal DOES reduce transmission rates of certain select STDs.



    I think its fine for everyone to have their preference and their opinion.

    However, the pressure to OUTLAW it is pure busybody fascism of the worst sort.
    And the fact that these movements to outlaw it tend to resort to lies, misrepresentations and unsupported anecdote, rather than actual hard data, is just more proof that these people are are as unethical and as intellectually dishonest as their arguments..

    Those opposing it have ZERO evidence of any long term harm. They simply have a foreskin fixation they demand other's adopt at the point of the law.

    As with any hotly debated issue without any compelling public interest either way...
    the only Rational position respectful of the rights and opinions of others is to leave it up to them.
    Do as YOU please, but keep your foreskin fixations outta my business.


    The State should never be allowed to enact laws that it can not prove are in the compelling interest of the people.
    At least, not if you want to preserve any form of freedom.
     
    #7 Phil Ayesho, Mar 26, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2009
  8. herkimer snow

    herkimer snow New Member

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    Maybe your foreskin is vestigial. Mine has proven to be an integral part of all kinds of sexual activity. It functions and has a purpose. If it's vestigial it's like a gall bladder or a spleen. You can live without either, but they both have a normal bodily function. So does a foreskin.
     
  9. thadjock

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    u disappoint me phil,

    if you're going to make the case for circumcision eliminating syphillis and gonorrhea, you need to include a little footnote about a thing called pennicillin and the second generation of antibiotics that also came into widespread use at the same time the wave of circumcisions were taking place.

    cheap, widely available drugs are what lowered the std transmission rate in the US, not circumcisions.

    the really dangerous "take-away" from this most recent jack-eyed african male study is that african (and all cut guys) will have been convinced that thier risk of getting or passing an STD will be eliminated by being or getting circumcised. think of all the unintended consequences of THAT.

    welcome to the stupid human race.
     
  10. Plebh

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    I'd agree with the UK view on this one (No bias being from the UK) but you can't look down upon the US for coming up with absurd reasons in the past. I remember reading about a guy around that time who promoted radioactive toothpaste as a good thing o.0
     
  11. Phil Ayesho

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    You disappoint me.
    You can not seem to tell the difference between CURING a disease that has been transmitted and TRANSMISSION RATES.

    Data on transmission rates are different than data on curing disease.
    For example Quinine can TREAT malaria, but it doesn't stop infection.

    But spreading a little diesel fuel on standing water WILL kill the mosquitoes that can carry malaria and REDUCE the number of people being infected- and therefore the NEED for quinine.

    15 years after the introduction of RIC, prescriptions given to treat syphilis began to fall markedly.
    Reports of infection fell markedly.

    I think any intelligent person can agree that it is far better to NOT get a disease in the first place, than to rely on it being cured after the fact...

    Especially since the disease in question today is HIV. Which is NOT curable.

    Antivirus programs interfere with the propagation of computer viruses by PREVENTING INFECTION... not curing the damage after the fact.

    If a specific percentage of potential infections can be prevented, then the virus can not become endemic.

    This is precisely why HIV in the heterosexual community is not as severe an issue in the US as it is in Africa.

    And every little bit helps.


    The real stupidity is to imagine that people's precious vestigial and often problematically useless flaps of foreskin are a more pressing need than preventing thousands from being infected with a deadly virus.
     
  12. matt121matt121

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    The foreskin is definitely not vestigial, I want mine back! (the real one not a fake one) The head of the penis was DESIGNED as an INTERNAL organ, and the foreskin is suppose to be the covering that keeps it an internal organ, to prevent it from rubbing on clothes, being exposed to weather etc. The body doesn't expose the most sensitive parts of women's bodies to be exposed to clothing and weather all the time, (least not to my knowledge, since I don't have sex with them).

    If you look at the history of circumcision, every time the rate starts to go down, there are people out there in the USA that just look for a new reason to try to get it started back up again.

    I'm all for disease prevention, but we should promote safe sex instead of circumcision.

    I mention it as a possibility, because I believe that it helped cause an un natural interest in members of the same sex when I was young and this combined with reduced sensitivity and the inability to be fully orgasmic unless I'm anally stimulated. And the constant rubbing of my cock head against my clothing which increasing my masturbatory tendencies.
     
  13. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Just so ridiculous. If cutting out the mucosal genital tissue is good for men, certainly it is also good for women. But no one is suggesting cutting women. It's an idiotic cultural gender bias.
     
  14. Phil Ayesho

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    actually, the comparable procedure in women would be removal of the clitoral hood.
    And this is, in fact ,a procedure that is increasing in popularity, due to the marked increase in sensitivity that women report.

    However, you are entirely wrong in suggesting the lowered transmission benefits should be identical in women as they are in men.

    The clitoral prepuce does not penetrate nor get penetrated in sex.
    Neither does the clitoral prepuce cover the urethral opening.
    It does not produce smegma, nor even a similar environment conducive to bacteria and other organisms. Neither is it particularly violently wrenched around nor stretched during sex.

    It is not prone to phimosis, nor most of the other developmental complications that afflict the foreskin ( which is further evolutionary evidence of its uselessness )


    So, no, Women getting their clitoral hood removed would not have the same epidemiological result as men getting circumcised.

    But the fact that you make such a fallacious argument is right in line with the routine mischaracterization of information that is the hallmark of anti-circ extremism.
    Bad arguments based upon zero real science.
     
  15. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

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    it's the last time i'll start a thread on this topic.

    sometimes too much IS enough.
     
  16. B_thickjohnny

    B_thickjohnny New Member

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    Is there a predominance of gay men who want their foreskin back? Seems to me that men who like/desire/fetishize foreskin are the same one who complain about losing theirs and most are gay. When did you first start thinking about this - wanting your foreskin back? How did it happen?

    I was molested as a young boy by an uncle. In my early 20s I was still dealing with it and began seeing a shrink to help work through some of the residual issues, etc. At one point the therapist suggested that these feelings were coming from the fact that I was cut as a baby and that I should try foreskin restoration to rebuild my confidence as a man. I later found out that the therapist was a big promoter of foreskin restoration and even participated in some men's group dealing with and promoting restoration. I saw zero connection and found another therapist.

    So I wonder how many guys get caught up in "I want my foreskin back" for really no reason except that they fetishize it and want it for themselves. And maybe I'm the opposite. I like being cut and I prefer being with cut guys. If that's a fetish, than so be it. I guess we travel on two way streets, so to speak.
     
  17. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    thickjohnny your post is out of line. All men are born with foreskins. In fact, all mammals male and female have such a structure. There is no way that you can make any logical connection between the natural genitals and fetishism.
     
  18. Phil Ayesho

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    Thick Johnny is actually right on target.

    Your claim that he can not connect them logically is something you said, but failed to support thru any logical argument or analogy.

    The vehemence with which anti-circ zealots pursue their crusade to enforce their beliefs on others... over a flap of skin that can be proven to have zero genetic benefit, proven to be complication prone due to genetic drift, and proven to increase transmission rates of specific deadly diseases... all argues strongly for your beliefs being an unhealthy obsessive compulsion.

    Add to that spectrum of behavior the disinformation tactics and outright lies you espouse in defense of your agenda, and the fact that you are not crusading over the extraction of wisdom teeth, tonsils and other body parts that, due to genetic drift, are also often problematic and thus routinely removed... that is, you are not outraged over OTHER routine modifications to natural body morphology...
    ..No.. this happens to be a part of your precious little penises...

    Thus, it becomes increasingly clear that this is a sexuo-gential fixation that clearly qualifies, at the very least, as a fetish.

    But in my mind, the political drive to "normalize" your own genitals thru the enforcement of your opinions thru law on the general population causes your pathology to transcend the bounds of any mere fetish and into the territory of full blown neurotic fixation.

    You can offer no reasoned argument why your group singles out male genital modification from genetic norms and totally disregards other modifications that are as common.
    Thus your defense on the basis of natural morphology is revealed to be a dodge. A disingenuous rationalization of your obsessive penile prepuce fixation, unsupported by similar concerns for other body parts.
     
  19. B_dxjnorto

    B_dxjnorto New Member

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    Phil your vehemence is your own undoing.
     
  20. B_Morning_Glory

    B_Morning_Glory New Member

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    yes it does seem this way . at least on this site it does. other sites its not so ramp-id. and i haven't seen very many arguments over a nuisance foreskin like they sometimes are on here. other sites have very interesting topics concerning this subject matter from both sides of the cock owners cut an uncut. also many women as well share their ideas about their preference and why they have such. and yes their are two way streets concerning the cut an uncut cocks also the guys they are attached to as well. but i myself agree 100% with you here thickjohnny , i like a guy to be cut and have always preferred the look and everything else that goes with a nice circumcised cock. [ after having my first cut cock.] [all the ones before was of the uncut variety ] and their is nothing wrong with you enjoying your circumcised cock as well as other cut ones also. since when did it become a fetish to enjoy something we prefer and is more to our liking than other things are... it also works this way for the uncut guys as well. and other women who prefer uncut. but their are guys as well as women .[ but mainly guys in this case] who like to bash and look down on a guy who isn't uncut and like to make false statement's about it. when they really know nothing of what they say concerning him. i would guess it just makes them feel good getting on some kind of ego trip id say. so enjoy your cut cock. their the best in my book. :wink: Ive had them both ways and cut cocks rule sweetie believe me.:biggrin1::biggrin1:
     
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