Gay-for-Pay

[D_Peter_Shakur]

Hey everyone,

This is a strange post that I don't know where to situate, so if it's in the wrong spot, I apologize. I am writing an academic (phd level) paper on gay-for-pay pornography. I'm writing about gay-for-pay porn in relation to the topic of mimesis, which concerns imitation, mimicry, reflection. At any rate, I won't bore you with the theoretical underpinnings (the paper will be looking at Plato, Brecht, and Judith Butler and topics like the distrustfulness of art, the alienation effect, and performativity). What I'm wondering are three things, which I'm hoping LPSG members could help me with:

One: Why do people (who do) find Gay-for-Pay pleasurable or erotic? What is it about seeing a straight man engage in homosexual acts that gets them off? I have some ideas but would love to hear other theories on the psychology of desire under this situation.

Two: I'm situating the gay-for-pay phenomenon as directly related to the age of the Internet. I'm claiming gay-for-pay occurs specifically because of the kind of porn the Internet encourages. At the same time (and maybe you disagree), are there precursers to gay-for-pay in video and cinematic porn from the decades preceding the 2000s?

Three: I'm using a Tyra Banks show she did on gay-for-pay performers as a primary object of study. Are there any actualy gay-for-pay performances in particular I should look at? I'm interested in the ones that really make a point of proving heterosexuality before jumping into the homosexual act; and I'm also interested in the ones that foreground games or money. Things like Gay Chicken, cam4, Bait Bus, straight college men all seem like options, but I'm not sure if some are better than others.

Okay, I'll stop. Any thoughts on gay-for-pay would be appreciated. Thanks a lot, everyone!

 

[Charles Finn]

ok gay for pay you can tell yourself it is just for the money but for me I like sex with guys more
I saw the show
and i try to be open minded but I think they are just doing whats easy money

 

[D_Peter_Shakur]

Okay, so the question isn't why do the performers do "gay-for-pay." What I'm concerned with is why the viewers like watching "gay-for-pay." What does the desire to watch "gay-for-pay" tell us about the viewer's desire?

One thing I'm thinking about is the manner in which this complicated designations. So, for instance, if a "straight" guy gets to have "gay" sex and leave the event still straight, this is a disruption of naming. It may be a kind of situational homosexuality. It's most certainly a confusion. Do people like watching it because it disrupts the norm, or because they relate, or because there's some kind of revenge fantasy? I don't know. That's what I'm trying to postulate.

 

[novice_btm]

Excellent topic. Looking forward to how it develops.

 

[houtx48]

Gay for pay?................If they were totally str8 they could not get it up for same sex relations at the very least they would be bi for pay.

 

[D_Peter_Shakur]

Not necessarily. One of the interesting things gay-for-pay shows us is the artificial nature of (potentially all) porn. Porn is not intimate--at least not its production. To be gay-for-pay in some events requires no arousal (simply being a bottom), and in others (when penetrating) can be the result of taking viagra or some generic thereof. We live in an age where to see an erection does not constitute necessarily an authentic arousal. So you can very easily be straight and have gay sex.

 

[D_Peter_Shakur]

In addition porn has fluffers or often other porn showing to stimulate actors. One very clear thing we can see with all porn is its constructed nature, its ability to lie. If people watch "gay-for-pay" for authenticity, that would be curious (or interesting) because porn is a genre I find incredibly inauthentic. This, then, I think shows us some insight into why amateur porn is such a phenomenon, however I would question amateur porn's authenticity as well. Linda Williams has some interesting thoughts on porn. I'd suggest _Hard Core_ to anyone who wants to learn more. Sorry for jumping in so much, just want to make sure to steer the discussion toward what I think are my main concerns / questions for this paper.

 

[bulletbob]

Beer_can: I think this is an interesting topic. I'm not sure of the context, though. Who is doing the watching, the gay population or the general public? If we're talking general public, it is my opinion that people would watch this sort of thing for the same reason they watch any other "shock-value" entertainment. People love seeing train wrecks. It's a trait of society that I dislike. I believe people would enjoy watching something like this for several reasons that fall into line with the appeal of shock-value entertainment. Some people might enjoy watching how far someone would go for money. Others might want to see it for the simple taboo.

If we're talking about why the gay population would want to watch it, I can't really help you. I have no idea. Simple arousal or maybe they want to see what it would take to make a straight person go gay. Maybe some gay people believe there's a little gay in all of us and this validates that.

My two cents.

 

[cuck4you]

I think watching gay-for-pay is rooted in 1.) the taboo, and 2.) humiliation, stemming from over bdsm fantasies. Now the BDSM scene is huge and does not always involve humiliation - but certainly there is an aspect of humiliation in many scenes of the BDSM world. I am a submissive who is very aroused by "forced" "public" "humiliation" etc.... - seeing it on others is also arousal.

Would I do it? Yes - for two reasons. Though I have bi-tendencies certainly, I "label" myself as straight so engaging as a bottom in gay situations fuels my self-perceived straight-turning-gay-so-am-degraded-and-humiliated fantasies...but also.....yes,to be crass.....I need the money!

 

[D_GlennFeckless]

Humans are sexual creatures, with similar distributions of sensory organs and nerve endings. Whether you're emotioanlly attracted or not to the same gender, physically it all feels good thus practicing straight/gay/bi sex is of one's choosing. What you're made of emotionally is a different story and will drive attraction, love, etc, but in the purely physical realm, it all feels good whether you choose to admit it or not.

Joe average "straight" guy who'll never, ever, for any reason whatsoever relinquish that classification, by enjoying gay-for-pay porn, can fantasize and vicariously enjoy man-to-man sex fully confident in his mind that, "that guy isn't really gay and neither am I for digging on it." Bully for you and viva la capitalisme.

I dig watching it if the participants are hot, hung, sweating and grunting and will fantasize on inserting myself into the scene, having nothing to do with the claimed predispositions of the actors or "victims". Often I find the ruse offputting, as it delays the action, but that is precisely what makes it appealing to many 100% gay guys who dig on the "I knew he wasn't straight!" angle, as well as the 100% straight guys who can safely enjoy the situation without threatening their safe spot in the world.

I'd be curious how many admitted bi guys (girls?) dig it, contrasted with unflinching gays & straights.

 

[cdunstan1]

Interesting thesis. Is your dissertation in Psychology? Plato, Brecht, and Judith Butler are an eclectic bunch. To say the least.

I would strongly disagree with your 2nd proposition. I was born in 1971 so I remember when porn was neither widely available nor free. Gay for pay dudes used to be all over the place then. Jeff Stryker and Ryan Idol are 2 from the late 80’s that I remember. Stryker also did bi videos with both men and women and fathered at least 1 child in real life. Idol really messed up his life with drugs and jumping out a hotel window. Not sure where that train of thought was going…. I guess to the fact that I don’t know their “true” orientation. I think the appeal (Point 1) was rooted in the notion that straight men were more masculine than gay men. Gay men could watch and think 1) I’m not gay if these straight guys are doing what I’m doing or 2) it’s more empowering to watch a “straight” dude humiliating himself by fucking gay ass or letting a gay dude suck his cock. All the gay for pay men were tops back then. Personally their alleged off-screen life did nothing for me. I liked Stryker because of his great body and big dick and couldn’t stand Idol cause I thought he was a flake.

As far as the kind of porn the Internet encourages, I just thought it encouraged free porn and everybody’s chance for 15 minutes of fame. I would suggest a lot of it is the tremendous change in society’s perception of homosexuality over just my lifetime. Which did begin 2 years after Stonewall. Have you considered that a lot of today’s stuff is mockery of these 80’s ideas and anyone who thinks homosexuality is a sinful choice or whatever. My brother is 25. I’m quite certain he is straight because I used to loan him my apartment to bang his girlfriends. But he and his male friends act seriously gay sometimes. They all paint their nails black, some of them wear guyliner and I’ve seen a few of them get drunk and kiss and giggle. I also know at least a few of them have experimented with same sex. It’s just not a big deal anymore. Of course I’m also in New York City which is not known for limited expression. Except we don’t have marriage equality yet. But that’s another thread.

 

[Limonka]

Straight men look different and have different mannerisms than gay men; I perceive them as more masculine - I use that term apprehensively - which is a trait I am drawn to.

 

[D_Harry_Pitz]

I only read the first post, but I can help you with this subject. You should contact me.

 

[Eric_8]

for me, the "pay" would have to be an astounding amount for me to go gay (sorry if the "go" implication sounded rude). I'm certain that I could get hard if someone was rubbing my junk, regardless of the gender, but I'm simply not at all attracted to the male body, and have no desires to have sex with another man.

An interesting sub-topic could be, what is the required pay to "go" gay? Or what would it take to be the pitcher or catcher. I'd bet my bottom dollar I already know which one would be preferred by straight men.

 

[D_Peter_Shakur]

Well, from what I can tell (and this is coming directly from a show Tyra Banks did on gay-for-pay, which is itself interesting for a whole other set of reasons), the gay porn stars claim to make around 10 x what they would make doing straight porn. So, for straight porn, they would get $500 a shoot, but for a gay porn, they'll make $5,000 a shoot.

 

[houtx48]

Not necessarily. One of the interesting things gay-for-pay shows us is the artificial nature of (potentially all) porn. Porn is not intimate--at least not its production. To be gay-for-pay in some events requires no arousal (simply being a bottom), and in others (when penetrating) can be the result of taking viagra or some generic thereof. We live in an age where to see an erection does not constitute necessarily an authentic arousal. So you can very easily be straight and have gay sex.

........Disagree If total straight would never go there in the first place.

 

[NoH8]

Interesting topic. I like some gay for pay porn but not all. Some sites like Bait Bus and Out In Public are fake in more ways than one because they pretend to set up sex with random people on the street who are actually paid performers, and it seems (because often these performers have appeared in other gay porn) that the supposed random straight people are actually gay anyway. This fake-ness reduces the attraction for me.

Other gay for pay porn like some of the more famous sites (Sean Cody?) acknowlege that the performers are hired, not randomly "found", and either explicitly or implicitly claim that some of the guys are straight. These sites range between solo action, duo or group jerk off (e.g. military themed sites) or oral sex, or fucking etc. My response depends on 2 things, are the men hot and masculine, and are they sexually excited? (Even if they were fluffed or prepped with straight porn on set).

A third type of gay for pay site is strictly BDSM or humiliation. (Bound Gods etc) where the guys are claimed to be straight and are clearly NOT enjoying the nudity, masturbation or forced sex/bondage etc. I do not find this enjoyable, even if the men are attractive, the pain or humiliation etc are a turn off for me.

Each person's response may be different, but for me, I like the idea of a hot masculine (and/or) straight man being turned on for a male audience, whether he is solo, with a male partner or a female partner. I guess I'm a voyeur so if he is turned on, and knows a male is watching, I like that - I guess it breaks a taboo. (For me, it is not a requirement that he have "gay" sex, since via the camera he's kind of having sex with me, 'cause he knows I'm there).

As described in other posts above, gay for pay is certainly not an invention of the internet because if you check out 70's and 80's porn, and older studios like COLT you will find numerous, supposedly straight models hired for their looks and muscles. The only thing that I would sometimes find disappointing about these kind of models is that they often couldn't hold a strong erection and performed poorly with other males. In that case I'd rather watch straight porn.

I think another big category that has grown more in the last 10 years is straight male-female porn where the body/nudity of the male and performance by the male is more important than the female. e.g. CFNM porn which means clothed female nude male - so the male is there for the enjoyment of the female partner/s and the male or female audience. I enjoy this. I also feel that a lot of the "cumshot/oral/facial/POV/Big Cock" etc porn is highlightling the male performance, cock and semen more than the female body. I think there must be a big male audience for this growing segment of porn. You might want to call it "Straight for Gay" rather than gay for pay. I am noticing that on this site there are many members who identify as straight who also like this "male focused" straight porn. I don't want to speak for them so that may be for another thread.

Another example of "Straight for Gay" without any fake-ness is the site "Straight Cam Jeff", where a married straight guy jerks off for his male fans in a variety of poses and costumes. This is similar to the whole CAM4 phenomenon. I think this phenomenon really blurs the boundaries between straight and gay in both the performers and the audience. In "camming" the performers ARE the audience. THIS is the real internet phenomenon and is closely linked to Gen Y.

 

[B_Hung Jon]

Well, from what I can tell (and this is coming directly from a show Tyra Banks did on gay-for-pay, which is itself interesting for a whole other set of reasons), the gay porn stars claim to make around 10 x what they would make doing straight porn. So, for straight porn, they would get $500 a shoot, but for a gay porn, they'll make $5,000 a shoot.

I'm not contradicting your ideas but I think you're a little off on the pay for gay-for-pay porn. Maybe a few very in demand guys would make $5,000 a shoot but most don't make that much. I know this because I have a relative in the porn bizz and have looked into it myself. Actually the highest paid porn performers are women who have a big name.

 

[beltboy]

Look into Dustin Zito , also known as Spencer. There is a thread or two in the celeb section that discusses him. He went from doing paid gay porn on fratpad, to mtvs the real world. Now he claims to be straight, but I have seen the vids on fratpad, and he enjoys the sensual interaction with the males, thats for sure. Some speculate he is just deeply closeted and not come to terms. You should expand your thesis to include the notion of heteroflexible males...and illuminate the shades of grey spectrum between gay and straight.

 

[D_Peter_Shakur]

I'm not contradicting your ideas but I think you're a little off on the pay for gay-for-pay porn. Maybe a few very in demand guys would make $5,000 a shoot but most don't make that much. I know this because I have a relative in the porn bizz and have looked into it myself. Actually the highest paid porn performers are women who have a big name.

That's interesting that you say that, because the pay aspect seems to be one of the crucial explanations on behalf of gay-for-pay models who insist they are really straight and not gay, so if that's out, then situational homosexuality seems the most like explanation. I'm sure there is a whole range of pay-scales dependent on popularity. As I think some posts have shown, websites like Cam4 are interesting in relation to this because, comparatively speaking, people are making a pittance there (I forget the token to dollar breakdown, but it's not as impressive as one would think, and I believe I've seen "straight" guys go "gay" for $50 or so, roughly). Cam4 brings up another interesting question: Is masturbating on cam alone for guys a gay activity?

Also, I find the adamant insistence that these "gay-for-pay" performers must be at least a little gay, or bi, really fascinating. My stance is that that's not necessarily true (although certainly it's one explanation), and I've turned to porn's disingenuous nature as a potential answer. On the Tyra Banks show, most in the audience, and Tyra herself, can't seem to wrap their heads around the notion of someone not fitting into one category or the other. It actually seems to anger them quite a bit (this uncertainty--what do we call these people who fit in both categories), and I think that's why it's such a fascinating topic: it shows us just how constructed our notion of gay and straight is. If we hadn't as a society determined these terms--if we were just sexual, instead of heterosexual, or homosexual--would this kind of thing even be possible?

Also, what is porn for? I suppose I'll need to consider how something like gay-for-pay operates, in terms of a porn in general. Is porn a kind of utopia, or dystopia? And here's a question that's bothering me: is gay-for-pay good for gay guys or bad? Does it do harm or create possibilities? Can anyone imagine a day when straight-for-pay porn is in vogue?