Is there really such a thing as bi-sexual?

umdoistressilvaquatro

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So being straight equals having negative feelings and a negative attitude (hatred, aversion, antipathy etc.) towards homosexuality?
In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic. Do you know what an analytic-synthetic distinction is? The claim that I did was a synthetic preposition ("we can infer from reality that straights are homophobic"), while your question of whether being straight "equals" being homophobic seems to be a analytic preposition ("straights are homophobic because thats the definition of heterosexuality"). So we are not debating the same claim.
 
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So we are not debating the same claim.
You have made three different claims:

"Every straight person is homophobic"
"In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic"
"We can infer from reality that straights are homophobic"

Which do you want to debate?
 
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You have made three different claims:

"Every straight person is homophobic"
"In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic"
"We can infer from reality that straights are homophobic"

Which do you want to debate?

The question(s) you have posed to umdoistressilvaquatro raise a number of interesting thoughts, however, it is important that you both agree on a definition of what “homophobic” means.

Your definition should include common measures.

Homophobia may be described according to its form (behavior), function (what it does or impact), and content (motivations).

It is possible you may both be in agreement but you wont know until you define what you are describing.
 

umdoistressilvaquatro

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You have made three different claims:

"Every straight person is homophobic"
"In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic"
"We can infer from reality that straights are homophobic"

Which do you want to debate?
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would only want to defend one of those 3 phrases and not the other 2, but in anyway I don't see them as independent claims. Afterall, I've said the 2nd and the 3rd explaining the first one. I just don't want to asnwear for mischaracterizations of what I've said, specially if what I've said is being distorted into ridicule.
 
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I'm not sure where you got the idea that I would only want to defend one of those 3 phrases
I don't know where you get that idea either. I said 'debate' not 'defend'. And of course you can debate any or all of them, as long as you understand they are not the same thing and we know which you mean.
 

alcor972

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umdoistressilvaquatro just raised more fire in this thread which wasn't so tranquil after all...
lol
I would never dare write this... lol...
now... hunghorse seems ready to deliver more reflection concerning those statements...
....
and if we made a distinction between... homophobic... and... not gay friendly?...
wouldn't this nuance be a little less provocative... and a way to target some consensus concerning those sad endless polemical subjects about sexual orientation?...
...
saying that... umdoistressilvaquatro really impressed me this evening... I wouldn't just have expected to read this...
and I think you could have gone too far...
...
now I'm waiting for hunghorse my hero... lol...
but be careful hunghorse... because umdoistressilvaquatro's first answer to your rephrasing of his statements is valid to me...
the fire!...
lol
oh... congratulations to lee_m as her thread will soon reach 100 replies... in a relatively short period...
lee_m knows how to unchain the passions here at lpsg...
lol...
 

Crimsonlurker

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In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic. Do you know what an analytic-synthetic distinction is? The claim that I did was a synthetic preposition ("we can infer from reality that straights are homophobic"), while your question of whether being straight "equals" being homophobic seems to be a analytic preposition ("straights are homophobic because thats the definition of heterosexuality"). So we are not debating the same claim.

Just out of curiosity i googled how many people there are on the planet. 7.125 billion. Lets say only half that number is heterosexuals. For your statements to be true that would mean that over 3 billion people had to have been taught to be homophobic. 3 billion. With absolutely no errors what so ever. An error meaning one of those people were taught that being gay wasn't a big deal. So to prove your statement wrong...we would only need one person to not have been taught to be homophobic. One.

Had you presented your argument differently it would be a different story. You said...

In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic. - You

And just for understandings sake...

  1. irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

  2. It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear, and is often related to religious beliefs.[4][5]
  3. is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility.
Yeah i don't see all the above being a thing all heterosexual people were set up for. Because once again, you said....

In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic. - You

Thats an absolute judgment about every last straight person's upbringing in existence. Meaning...well you're wrong from the start.
 
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In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic.



This may not please umdoistressilvaquatro but I am in near agreement with him. If I can rework his basic statements just a bit, they do hit the target.

He said, “In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic.”

Rewording:
In the context of our society over the past 100 years nearly all people, especially those who consider themselves as straight, have been heavily influenced (set up) to become homophobic

He said, “No one who identifies as straight has no homophobia.”

Rewording:
Anyone who identifies himself/herself as straight carries an increased potential for being homophobic
 
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Snakebyte

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This may not please umdoistressilvaquatro but I am in near agreement with him. If I can rework his basic statements just a bit, they do hit the target.

He said, “In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic.”

Rewording:
In the context of our society over the past 100 years nearly all people, especially those who consider themselves as straight, have been heavily influenced (set up) to become homophobic

He said, “No one who identifies as straight has no homophobia.”

Rewording:
Anyone who identifies himself/herself as straight carries an increased potential for being homophobic
An increased potential makes sense. But what umdoistressilvaquatro said is utter nonsense since he redefines heterosexuality and homophobia so that it fits his opinion.
I highly doubt a sane person would label a man who was raised without prejudice against gays, who is comfortable around gays kissing each other, who has gay friends and treats them like every other person as homophobic just because he wouldn't be attracted to other men and wouldn't kiss/have sex with them. I mean then we would have to label every single gay guy as misogynic, right?
 
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umdoistressilvaquatro just raised more fire in this thread which wasn't so tranquil after all...
lol
I would never dare write this... lol...
now... hunghorse seems ready to deliver more reflection concerning those statements...
....
and if we made a distinction between... homophobic... and... not gay friendly?...
wouldn't this nuance be a little less provocative... and a way to target some consensus concerning those sad endless polemical subjects about sexual orientation?...
...
saying that... umdoistressilvaquatro really impressed me this evening... I wouldn't just have expected to read this...
and I think you could have gone too far...
...
now I'm waiting for hunghorse my hero... lol...
but be careful hunghorse... because umdoistressilvaquatro's first answer to your rephrasing of his statements is valid to me...
the fire!...
lol
oh... congratulations to lee_m as her thread will soon reach 100 replies... in a relatively short period...
lee_m knows how to unchain the passions here at lpsg...
lol...
This is like the chorus in a Greek tragedy! I take heed of your warning. 'Exit, pursued by a bore' ;)
 

umdoistressilvaquatro

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Just out of curiosity i googled how many people there are on the planet. 7.125 billion. Lets say only half that number is heterosexuals. For your statements to be true that would mean that over 3 billion people had to have been taught to be homophobic. 3 billion. With absolutely no errors what so ever. An error meaning one of those people were taught that being gay wasn't a big deal. So to prove your statement wrong...we would only need one person to not have been taught to be homophobic. One.

Had you presented your argument differently it would be a different story. You said...

In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic. - You

And just for understandings sake...

  1. irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

  2. It has been defined as contempt, prejudice, aversion, hatred or antipathy, may be based on irrational fear, and is often related to religious beliefs.[4][5]
  3. is the hatred or fear of homosexuals - that is, lesbians and gay men - sometimes leading to acts of violence and expressions of hostility.
Yeah i don't see all the above being a thing all heterosexual people were set up for. Because once again, you said....

In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic. - You

Thats an absolute judgment about every last straight person's upbringing in existence. Meaning...well you're wrong from the start.
Every single straight person have been taught that gayness is either ridiculous, funny, pathetic, unnatural, sinful, suboptimal, forbidden, threatening, mistaken, distorted, wrong, perverted, inferior, abnormal or grotesque. No straight person have ever been taught that being gay is no different from being straight.
I don't know how poiting out the number of people alive is an argument against any of those facts. Yes, the number of homophobes is huge, why is this supposed to be difficult to believe? In 39% of the world (76 countries), gay people live under a police-state level of persecution, some of them (5,1% - 10 countries) under the threath of death penalty. Only 10,7% of the world (21 countries) have same sex marriage, several of those countries don't recognize full nominal equality. Until 2001, there was not a single country in the world where gay people had equality under law. So I ask you: who make those laws? How does it work that a society have extremely homophobic rules, but not an extremely homophobic majority?
Not every straight person believes that gay people should be subaltern to them under law, but they too live in an extremely homophobic world. Is it surprising they are at least a bit homophobic? I myself have yet to meet a single non-homophobic straight person.
 

umdoistressilvaquatro

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umdoistressilvaquatro just raised more fire in this thread which wasn't so tranquil after all...
lol
I would never dare write this... lol...
now... hunghorse seems ready to deliver more reflection concerning those statements...
....
and if we made a distinction between... homophobic... and... not gay friendly?...
wouldn't this nuance be a little less provocative... and a way to target some consensus concerning those sad endless polemical subjects about sexual orientation?...
...
saying that... umdoistressilvaquatro really impressed me this evening... I wouldn't just have expected to read this...
and I think you could have gone too far...
...
now I'm waiting for hunghorse my hero... lol...
but be careful hunghorse... because umdoistressilvaquatro's first answer to your rephrasing of his statements is valid to me...
the fire!...
lol
oh... congratulations to lee_m as her thread will soon reach 100 replies... in a relatively short period...
lee_m knows how to unchain the passions here at lpsg...
lol...
What does gay friendly even means? I have found several stablishments that proudly declare themselves gay friendly meaning they use their supposed lack of homophobia as a marketing feature. Besides marketing, I have never seen the term before. So I fail to see the nuance you are trying to point up. What do you mean?
 
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umdoistressilvaquatro

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An increased potential makes sense. But what umdoistressilvaquatro said is utter nonsense since he redefines heterosexuality and homophobia so that it fits his opinion.
I highly doubt a sane person would label a man who was raised without prejudice against gays, who is comfortable around gays kissing each other, who has gay friends and treats them like every other person as homophobic just because he wouldn't be attracted to other men and wouldn't kiss/have sex with them. I mean then we would have to label every single gay guy as misogynic, right?
I didn't made the argument you are implying I did. In fact, I wrote 3 posts explaining that I did not said "straight people are homophobic because that's what being straight is". You are accusing me of saying that if straight men does not make themselves sexually available to gay men, they are being homophobic. I have repeatedly explained that I did not said that, yet you still try to ridicule me by implying a predatorial-gay-man trope.
 
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An increased potential makes sense. But what umdoistressilvaquatro said is utter nonsense since he redefines heterosexuality and homophobia so that it fits his opinion.
I highly doubt a sane person would label a man who was raised without prejudice against gays, who is comfortable around gays kissing each other, who has gay friends and treats them like every other person as homophobic just because he wouldn't be attracted to other men and wouldn't kiss/have sex with them. I mean then we would have to label every single gay guy as misogynic, right?

Yes, it all comes down to a common definition of what is meant by homophobic.

Both you and umdoistressilvaquatro are working from the same sheet of music. You describe a situation where there is positive cultural reinforcement for individuals who are gay. Umdoistressilvaquatro sees a world culture where anything gay is degraded.

If it is your position that a positive environment would greatly lower the potential for homophobia among all participants, then I heartily agree. But the problem is that the nurturing environment you describe would be very unusual in today’s western or world culture.

Umdoistressilvaquatro may be a bit emphatic in how he describes “the gay experience” in today’s world, but for the most part, he is telling it like it is.

The OP’s question asks if bi-sexuals really exist.

Both you and umdoistressilvaquatro are discussing a sidebar issue that may or nay not connect with an individual’s range of sexual preference.

Both of you are suggesting that an individual can be made more or less homophobic based on the kinds of positive and negative treatment they receive from their culture. It is possible you are thinking (deductively) that the less homophobic an individual is, the more likely that person is to experience bi-sexual feelings (and perhaps activities).

However, the type of learning environments you and umdoistressilvaquatro describe are highly based on behavioral learning theory. Think about B F Skinner and how he trained dogs by ringing a bell.

If you stop here you are only working in a one-dimensional world. There are two other big ways for understanding how people think, learn, and do what they do.

One is the discipline of psychoanalysis. (Think Sigmund Freud and his id, ego, and super-ego construct).

And the third is based on Jean Piaget’s “theory of cognitive development”. This theory deals with the nature of knowledge and how humans gradually come to acquire, construct, and use it.

These are three different perspectives but must be considered together. And this makes the OP’s question a tough one to answer.
 

Crimsonlurker

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This may not please umdoistressilvaquatro but I am in near agreement with him. If I can rework his basic statements just a bit, they do hit the target.

He said, “In the context of our society, every straight person is set up to be homophobic.”

Rewording:
In the context of our society over the past 100 years nearly all people, especially those who consider themselves as straight, have been heavily influenced (set up) to become homophobic

He said, “No one who identifies as straight has no homophobia.”

Rewording:
Anyone who identifies himself/herself as straight carries an increased potential for being homophobic

I understand what both of you are saying, that isn't the problem. I'm disagreeing because it's a massively general statement that is automatically wrong from the start. It would be like saying base on societal norms all women were taught to be submissive to men. While that's true to a certain amount stating it in absolutes automatically makes the statement wrong. For better example i'll just say that all human beings were born with two arms. Or that all human beings have brown eyes. Or that all human beings put their pants on starting with the left leg. Or that all automobiles have four doors. Or that all forum posts end with the poster typing boobies.

No matter what you follow the statement up with it will undoubtedly be wrong. He could have admitted that he made an error in using the statement....


every straight person is

...but he did not. Which i might once again add is like saying...

every homosexual person is..
every asexual person is...
every human being is...
every automobile is...
every male is...
every female is....

Once more, no matter what follows, those statements will be wrong. And for a little more clarification....

eve·ry
ˈevrē/
determiner
  1. (preceding a singular noun) used to refer to all the individual members of a set without exception.
    "the hotel assures every guest of personal attention"
    • used before an amount to indicate something happening at specified intervals.
      "tours are every thirty minutes"
    • (used for emphasis) all possible; the utmost.
      "you have every reason to be disappointed"
It could have been that he mistakingly used words and phrases out of context. Which isn't a big deal if admitted but defending that mistake when it's a very large very encompassing one is....pretty lame. And taken a little further explains why discussion among people in general is so difficult to pull off. So yeah, not all of anyone will anything. Period. Statistically speaking and common sense speaking. And just to further point out....

Every single straight person have been taught that gayness is either ridiculous, funny, pathetic, unnatural, sinful, suboptimal, forbidden, threatening, mistaken, distorted, wrong, perverted, inferior, abnormal or grotesque. No straight person have ever been taught that being gay is no different from being straight. - Umdoistressilvaquatro

This proving not only did he mean exactly what he said but he double and tripled down on it. Once again, those are absolute statements that cannot be construed as anything other than what they are.
 
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