Offensive cartoons

[D_Humper E Bogart]

Wait, your army can fight? It'll be the armies of the "Coalition of the brain dead" who'll be used as cheap fodder.


If you want another war, don't drag anyone else into it. Otherwise, fine by me.

 

[Dr Rock]

Wait, your army can fight?

pffft, who said anything about armies? I wouldn't waste an army on a shithole like the middle east.

 

[Shelby]

Apparently some islamofascists have hacked Aaron's site. Appears he doesn't scare easy.
​

 

[D_Coyne Toss]

The cartoon row as showed, once again, what Islam is nowadays.

How can we think to get along with people whose leaders want to keep population in a dark Middle Age? Do you think that people roting in India, Egypt or Indonesia have actually seen the cartoons? They've only been told that West hates them and wants to destroy them.

I don't even think that it is their faul, but of their chiefs', from Gheddafi, to Ahmaninejad, to Assad. Is there a country where most of the population is muslim, that is a democracy?

There are semi democracies, like Morocco or Jordan, and a developing democracy like Turkey, but remember that Ataturk in the twenties forced Turkey to modernize, forbridding chadors, and spoiling religious leaders of their power.

All we can do now is to resist: we don't have to change our habits, like satire or democracy only because it upsets some extremists. Wew have to be proud of our life style, and defend it, at least in our homes.

There's no space, in the West for people who burn flags, or riot in the name of a religion that, interpreted as they do, doesn't accept cricticism or comparison with others.

There's place for people who come here, because they need a job, and accept to live as we do.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Is there a country where most of the population is muslim, that is a democracy? There are semi democracies, like Morocco or Jordan, and a developing democracy like Turkey, but remember that Ataturk in the twenties forced Turkey to modernize, forbridding chadors, and spoiling religious leaders of their power.

Well, I basically agree with your post.

But I would give Turkey bigger points than you do for their embrace of democracy. True, the army is ever in the background, but a frankly Islamic party was voted in, and has proven respectful of divergent viewpoints and no threat to democratic ideals at all.

Indonesia, I would say, is a fairly solid democracy.

Malaysia is officially Muslim, and its democracy is quite secure.

Bangladesh was working out quite well for a while.

And one of the largest populations of Muslims in the world, those in India, are entirely woven into their nation's democratic fabric. (I acknowledge that, as a minority among the Hindus, virtue on this point might come easily.)

I would call Morocco and Jordan, which you refer to, only semi-semi-democracies, but the democratic gestures they're making give confidence.

I don't have a clue what's going to happen in the Middle East. But I think it's quite possible that, looking back in 20 years time, we'll see far more freedom in the region.

(And it's possible, too, that things will be as bad as they are now -- or much worse. It's always a mug's game to predict the future, but nowhere more so than in this particularly sad and backward belt of the world.)

 

[D_Coyne Toss]

I agree with you, Rubirosa: things got better in the Middle East, and are still getting better.

Regarding democracy, you might be right if we consider free elections enough to identify a democracy.

Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh are democracies only from an electoral point of view, while much has still to be dine for human rights, particularly for women, homosexuals, minorities.

Sure, Indonesia had a female President, Ms Sukarnoputri, so was Ms Bhutto PM of Pakistan, and Bangladesh's last polls were a competition between two women, butordinary women still live in hell.

Turkey is still forced to be modern: the European Union has recently forced Mr Erdogan's government to cancel a bill that would have transfromed adultery in a crime. Modernity lives in Istanbul and Izmir only: try to go to the remot eastern provinces.

 

[dreamer20]

Has anyone actually noticed how it has taken 4 months for the protests to
happen ? These cartoons were published back in september 2005.
And how is it that there are plenty of Dannish flags to be found in the middle
eastern countries ?
Do you think that mabey someone is stirring the pot a little ?
And has anyone ever seen the anti semitic and anti christian cartoons
in arabic newspapers?

Makes you wonder...

Yes, the whole thing was stage managed by radicals who even threw in some extra mohammed cartoons of their own to add fuel to the fire. See this link:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/02/islamic-society-of-denmark-used-fake.html


Also if Islam was so sacred to Muslims sectarian warfare should not exist in their faith and the temple of Al-Askariya( in Iraq) wouldn't have been destroyed by Sunni muslims. The destruction of that Muslim temple is yet another example of religious intolerance and hypocrisy as the violence and destruction committed in response to the cartoons was.

lol dreamer20

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I agree with you, Rubirosa: things got better in the Middle East, and are still getting better.

Regarding democracy, you might be right if we consider free elections enough to identify a democracy.

Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh are democracies only from an electoral point of view, while much has still to be dine for human rights, particularly for women, homosexuals, minorities.

I'm sure you're largely right. On the social level, there's nothing comparable to Western civil society ... and that change will take a long time.

But the introduction of free elections is a very important step.

Turkey is still forced to be modern: the European Union has recently forced Mr Erdogan's government to cancel a bill that would have transfromed adultery in a crime. Modernity lives in Istanbul and Izmir only: try to go to the remote eastern provinces.

Are you saying you can't even GO to those eastern provinces? I didn't know that.

As for the cancellation of the adultery bill, Erdogan did cave, and it shows that Turkey remains committed to joining the modern world. Most people have found Erdogan much more reasonable that they feared just after his coming to power. Haven't they? That's my impression.

There's no question they're on a long road. It might take 50 years before real progress is made, not just in strictly-defined democratic terms, but in liberalization of attitudes.

But many in the Islamic world feel they've long been on the wrong side of history. There's a strong upswell of sentiment among journalists, intellectuals, civil servants and others that real progress can only occur if economies are opened, if the hand of authority is loosened so citizens begin to feel like agents, and if the knot of victimhood unravels so energies can begin to unfold creatively. Some of the discussions they've held have been astonishingly frank and public.

G.W. Bush hasn't helped this process. The War in Iraq has only reinforced the defensiveness in the region.

But in the long term, I think great changes are coming. And they might come more quickly than we suppose.

If someone had told you, in 1985, that the Communist system would be pretty much gone by 1993, you'd have laughed.

Maybe the tectonic plates are due for another sudden shift.

Let's hope.:smile:

Oh, and call me Rubi.

 

[Section8]

I think we're extremely close to being right there ourselves. Give the fundies here a few more years in power (remember the tremendous head start THEIR fundies have had) and we'll blow them out of the water. We have better weapons.

Thou shalt cast no image of Matt and Trey.

Publicise the pics. Fuck 'em. They don't hesitate to satirise our leaders, I say theirs are fair game. We make fun of everyone, they don't get a pass because of their own egos.

I love your avatar MZ. Women built like you give me instant wood
Go the curves!

But yeah good post. Fuck em. In Australia the premier banned Christmas songs in preschools incase it offended the muzzies. Bottom line is free speech
is a corner stone of democracy. The minute we start to pander to religeons
and change state laws to appease them, if the minute we start to become a theocracy. Islam does not recognise a separation of church and state. Fine.
Let them not recognise it in their own countries. Come to western nations
and respect the ways or piss off.

 

[dong20]

If we can't laugh at those very characteristics which 'define' us (whoever 'us' is) however stereoptypical can we really claim to be open minded and tolerant? For example, at school I heard no end of Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman jokes did that mean I believed that all the Irish were stupid and all the Scots mean? Of course not.

A sense of humour regarding such things is a world apart from prejudice, it just seems that some can't or won't see the difference. While humour has the potential to bridge different views or beliefs by putting them in perspective, surely prejudice can only divide. I appreciate that sometimes it's a fine line.

In the case of the violence following publication of these cartoons methinks the lady doth protest too much. Radicals of any type are just looking for an excuse to play the victim and in reacting as they did all they did was move the perceived image of their 'peers' another step further from a chariacature to an entrenched belief and in this case at least that is surely a bad thing.

 

[yhtang]

But the introduction of free elections is a very important step.

I agree that free elections important step. The concept of free election means that the public has a free right to choose, i.e. democracy. However, I would point out that democracy only really works if the electorate

1) is educated,
2) has free access to unbiased information
3) has legitimate choices/alternatives

If the bulk of the electorate is not educated, they can, and will be, easily hoodwinked to selecting a candidate that is not really there to represent their wishes. Instead, that candidate (now a member of the Parliament or its equivalent) would be voted into power for his own personal gains. In that event, that government would not quite be a democracy, it would be more a kleptocracy as these "representatives" line their own pockets and drain the country dry.

If there is no/insufficient access to unbiased information, then the electorate can hardly be expected to be able to make an educated choice (assuming they are educated in the first place).

Finally, if there are no legitimate choices, then what's the point of an election? The electorate might as well be asked to choose between me, me and me.

Therefore, for democracy to take place, it is essential that the aforementioned three conditions have to be fulfilled. Unfortunately, not all countries which we hope are able to enjoy democracy are up to it.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

I agree that free elections important step. The concept of free election means that the public has a free right to choose, i.e. democracy. However, I would point out that democracy only really works if the electorate

1) is educated,
2) has free access to unbiased information
3) has legitimate choices/alternatives

Therefore, for democracy to take place, it is essential that the aforementioned three conditions have to be fulfilled. Unfortunately, not all countries which we hope are able to enjoy democracy are up to it.

Well, I couldn't agree more. We're talking a process, a long one.
Education will come rather quickly, but we're still looking at a couple of decades. Information is getting harder and harder to control, in the Muslim world as elsewhere. Soon it will be almost impossible to control.

As for legitimate choices/alternatives, a decade could make an enormous difference ... especially if the sentiment for democracy sprouts with any speed. Which I think it will. (But who knows? There may be an element of wishful thinking here.)

I will even overbid your statement. Almost none of those countries which we hope are able to enjoy democracy are up to it -- in a full sense, at this very moment.

But I'm not pessimistic. Not in the long run.