Personally I see the entire fiasco not only as a political black eye for Bush, but as a political black eye for Homeland Security. They had a couple days to prepare, which they wouldn't have gotten if, say, a chemical attack happened in New Orleans; and yet, they were still unable to orderly evacuate the city in the aftermath. I think there has been some serious break down in the interaction between federal, state, and local governments. Basically what it boils down to is this, besides efforts to allow rescue and emergency workers the ability to communicate in a disaster, Homeland Security would be fundamentally unable to protect us in times of emergency. Is it just a placebo to make citizens feel more secure than they are, or what? I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter, as I admittedly do not know all that I could on it.
Question on Katrina aftermath
- Thread starter smallman
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I don't see why not. I wanted to get people's opinions specifically about the implications on Homeland Security. We have threads completely about the racial component and threads about the ineptitude of Bush (and the government in generals) handling of the situation; what is wrong with having another one on my topic?
BUSH'S PEOPLE WILL NOT GIVE HIM A BLACKEYE.....HE DELEGATES FAULT NOT AUTHORITY OR RESPONSIBILITY....
AS MUCH AS WE ARE FUCKED BY THEM, LIBERALS KEEP GOING BACK FOR MORE, YES! SIR!, PLEASE SIR! PILE IT ON SIR!
and they do, don't they?
Their modus operandi is LIES, small at first and then depending on how much attention is generated, big, BiggeR, and BIGger still and then.......What!? No! such! thing! occured!
You are a threat to the real great United States, uh NOT un ited now.
The libs LET Bill Clinton carry UNnecessary Heat. WE fucked him, as bad as the so called Christians who were involved.
Enough, If smart enough you already know this embarrassing fact.
-+-+-+-+-+-------------------------------as a architrectural designer wanna be, I see........==
New Orleans can become the greatist architectural event. Build a canal city, a Venice or hanging gardens of babylon of the "New World".
It could be F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S (AS Dubya would say)......................
THIS act, to build a New Oleans Atlantis/Venice, could be an act that would ressurect the "States" from Bushs' ashes of devestation................
Think it over, a canal city from the rubble and build it ABOVE sea level.
blackwood
BUSH'S PEOPLE WILL NOT GIVE HIM A BLACKEYE.....HE DELEGATES FAULT NOT AUTHORITY OR RESPONSIBILITY....
AS MUCH AS WE ARE FUCKED BY THEM, LIBERALS KEEP GOING BACK FOR MORE, YES! SIR!, PLEASE SIR! PILE IT ON SIR!
and they do, don't they?
Their modus operandi is LIES, small at first and then depending on how much attention is generated, big, BiggeR, and BIGger still and then.......What!? No! such! thing! occured!
You are a threat to the real great United States, uh NOT un ited now.
The libs LET Bill Clinton carry UNnecessary Heat. WE fucked him, as bad as the so called Christians who were involved.
Enough, If smart enough you already know this embarrassing fact.
-+-+-+-+-+-------------------------------as a architrectural designer wanna be, I see........==
New Orleans can become the greatist architectural event. Build a canal city, a Venice or hanging gardens of babylon of the "New World".
It could be F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S (AS Dubya would say)......................
THIS act, to build a New Oleans Atlantis/Venice, could be an act that would ressurect the "States" from Bushs' ashes of devestation................
Think it over, a canal city from the rubble and build it ABOVE sea level.
blackwood
[post=340528]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]Other than contesting my first, and I might add tangtial sentence, this post failed to address my opening question. Let me rephrase it: i want to know what you guys think the sloppy evacuation of New Orleans says about Homeland Security. Particularly the government's ability to respond in the event of an emergency. Now if you think the problem with himeland security is Bush, than tell me how you would fix it. If it is unfixable, what does this mean?
By the way, I hate to break it to you; but your canal plan is fiscally impossible (which, come to think of it, is just the sort of fucktard reasoning that may lead Bush to try and implement it). What will be built is most likely a smaller community and port on the higherground north of the city with the bulk of the population relocated upstate somewhere. It's happened before. Remember Galveston, Texas was once a thriving port city; that is until a hurricane relocated it up to Houston.
nothing we didn't know already - i.e. that "homeland security" is all about stifling civil liberties, and nothing about protecting people from actual danger.
[post=340544]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]Well, seems like we're pretty much in agreement here. My one problem is now that it is quite obviously unable to deal with the aftermath of a catastrophe, it almost makes sense that more money would be directed at intelligence gathering and border security (and all those two items entail) instead.
Other than contesting my first, and I might add tangtial sentence, this post failed to address my opening question. Let me rephrase it: i want to know what you guys think the sloppy evacuation of New Orleans says about Homeland Security. Particularly the government's ability to respond in the event of an emergency. Now if you think the problem with himeland security is Bush, than tell me how you would fix it. If it is unfixable, what does this mean?
By the way, I hate to break it to you; but your canal plan is fiscally impossible (which, come to think of it, is just the sort of fucktard reasoning that may lead Bush to try and implement it). What will be built is most likely a smaller community and port on the higherground north of the city with the bulk of the population relocated upstate somewhere. It's happened before. Remember Galveston, Texas was once a thriving port city; that is until a hurricane relocated it up to Houston.
[post=340537]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]{Fucktard??} Goodness me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for thoughtfully leaving out "Motherfucking fucktard" Your open-mindedness has been well demonstrated in your contributions continually receiving well, receiving? You are not cute? Straight??
NOTHING suggested in MY response is fiscally impossible........Bull doze the levies, wait a year, assess the situation and do it. Venice DOES exist and could be thought of as an answer the the mess in NOLA.
Well laddie, you can go on all nite bashing....Bush, Congress Homeland Security, YOU jacking your jaws BLAME BLAME ( is that like wa-wa-wa) WE are all to blame. The voting 51% as well a the lazy Liberals not VOTING can share. From the individuals who stayed for whatever the reason. past administrations that cut funding THE GOVENOR OF LA AND MAYOR of NOLA who knew damned well that some COULD NOT LEAVE.
Did Galveston fade out of existence, I must have seen the ghosts of the past when I visited a few years back. It's there, and serving a purpose.
Your attack on me is sure as hell misdirected, but I have found that the "generalist expert", unlike the resident expert, seldom contribute solutions.
None of the problems need be pointed out at this time, they are quite obvious.
November of last year May have held the hindsight answer of what to do. 51% of the voters fucked up in their choice, tying the rest of us to ??????????????whatever!
I so dislike labels. "Fucktard" --- Is that the best that our educational system has done for you, or are you "slow" son??
I mean it's not to be ashamed of - LOOK our president (a two termer) was a C(-) student millioniare, and a CHEERLEADER to boot. Look how well he's done.
Do not expect more of "YOUR LEADERS" than you can deliver yourself.
OOh Yeh! Look around at the various post many have given their thoughts.
blackwood
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There is some atrong conflicting sentiment here. but to the question.
Dr. Rock is absolutely correct. Homeland Security is about monitoring individual people and everyone is a potential terrorist. It is about monitoring airports, customs and the like. Homeland Security has nothing to do with what to do AFTER disaster strikes.
The second problem is we have two many agencies involved. Our government has so many agencies and departments, but not cheif. Supposedly FEMA was in charge, but they had no clue.
Why is it that the U.S. can go all over the world and do amazing feats? Only the military is in thowse foreign countires without all the beurocrats. When the U.S. Army moved into new Orleans along with the nationalized National Guard, it took hours, not days. Had the army moved in immediately, we would not have had the horrible nightmare we had. And I am not pro military. It is that they have a clear chain of command. The other agencies have no clue about chain of command. Each agency didn't have any idea of what the other agencies were doing. And only the army knows how to restore order and rescue people on that grand of a scale. A few workers from some federal office can't begin to do the job.
Yes, it is Bush's fault. He was too busy giving policy possition speeches in California on Iraq and enjoying his vacation on the ranch. He should have called out the army immediately and not waited several days.
Dr. Rock is absolutely correct. Homeland Security is about monitoring individual people and everyone is a potential terrorist. It is about monitoring airports, customs and the like. Homeland Security has nothing to do with what to do AFTER disaster strikes.
The second problem is we have two many agencies involved. Our government has so many agencies and departments, but not cheif. Supposedly FEMA was in charge, but they had no clue.
Why is it that the U.S. can go all over the world and do amazing feats? Only the military is in thowse foreign countires without all the beurocrats. When the U.S. Army moved into new Orleans along with the nationalized National Guard, it took hours, not days. Had the army moved in immediately, we would not have had the horrible nightmare we had. And I am not pro military. It is that they have a clear chain of command. The other agencies have no clue about chain of command. Each agency didn't have any idea of what the other agencies were doing. And only the army knows how to restore order and rescue people on that grand of a scale. A few workers from some federal office can't begin to do the job.
Yes, it is Bush's fault. He was too busy giving policy possition speeches in California on Iraq and enjoying his vacation on the ranch. He should have called out the army immediately and not waited several days.
Freddie,
FEMA is part of Homeland Security. And the FEMA budget has been reduced by about 50% in the last 4 years. And you are right about no chain of command. It's all about politics and photo ops. Had this been a sudden chemical-biological or nu-clear attack, the response would have been the same, except that instead of thousands; hundreds of thousands, if not millions would have perished.
My concern is, now the entire world, especially those who hate us, KNOW we do not have the ability to respond. Nor apparently, the inclination.
FEMA is part of Homeland Security. And the FEMA budget has been reduced by about 50% in the last 4 years. And you are right about no chain of command. It's all about politics and photo ops. Had this been a sudden chemical-biological or nu-clear attack, the response would have been the same, except that instead of thousands; hundreds of thousands, if not millions would have perished.
My concern is, now the entire world, especially those who hate us, KNOW we do not have the ability to respond. Nor apparently, the inclination.
Easy now, I didn't call you a fucktard.
Look, we already have a massive deficit, and as has been pointed out we've already cutback significantly on domestic programs, and that makes building Venice in Louisiana pretty much impossible.
I think I will. You see it's called the first amendment.
I never said that New Orleans should fade out of existence. Please reread my post. I pointed out that Galveston never came back as the port metropolis it once was. There is a difference...
I did not mean to attack you, so sorry if it came across that way. You're right, I don't have any answers...that is why I came here to ask questions. Yes, the problems do need to be pointed out at this time. Global warming, federal insurance subsidies for oceanfront communities, our ability to evacuate after disasters; all these need to be addressed. I can't think of a better time for discussing them.
I don't know what to make of this sentence.
I like to use all the words at my disposal.
It's the words you use, not the words that you don't, that prove your intelligence.
I don't know what being a cheerleader has to do with this argument.
Why not? Isn't that the purpose of having a government?
I am. That's why I started this thread.
I am sorry if I misspoke, as I am uninformed on this subject. I was under the impression that part of th post 9/11 reforms were aimed at increasing the fluidity of communications between national, state, and local governments, and also at increasing the ability of emergency personel to respond to post disaster situations (at least the 9/11 Commission report stated that they should be). It would appear that those reforms are either woefully inadequate, incomplete, or infeasible ever. I don't know which of these is the correct answer and would appreciate it if some members of this group could help enlighten me.
The entire paragraph on chain of command makes sense to me, but what can be done to restructure civilian bureaucracy to respond to disastors to respond like the military, without also stiffling dissenting opinions (as the military tends to do) during non-crisis times?
I agree with this entire sentence, but I feel the duty to question the "vacation" meme. Isn't it entirely possible for a President, so inclined, in this age of communications to run the show from Crawford, or from Cape Cod for that matter? Besides, we all know that, at the very least, Bush is not a hands on President. He delegates (ie lets other make the tough decisions).
Still doesn't answer the question of WHY the Federal Government waited 5 days to respond. Every single dead body should be laid on the steps to the White House.
[post=340581]Quoted post[/post]
[/b][/quote]Kinkguy, how may times do I have to say this is Bush's fault for you guys to trust me? What I took from the article is that *surprise* those in charge of disastor response didn't take into account the poor when planning for evacuation plans. That strikes me as a pretty sound line of reasoning. What this does not change is the fact that Bush made his plan for these occurances the foundation of his campaign (well, that and being anti-gay marriage), so ultimately the blame, even if it is channeled through localized incompetence, lays squarely with him. Again, I do not know enough to make a final analysis. I expect more information to come out in the ensuing months ahead (there has to be an investigation), but was wondering if the problem is, in fact, fixable?
I should have kept my ideas silent.....BUT so many do and here we are. Iwould see the cost of canal city the required delay. The Tenneessee River system should be of some help.
Apologies for my growing fear of where we are REALLY going. I'm near dead, my two sons one 35 and one 30 are well inline to live to see the results. I assume that you will be facing the same................It's wrong............
blackwood
No apologies are necessary. Times are hard and emotional responses are to be expected. I'm only 20, so needless to say, I will see the results(barring some unforeseen catasthrophe); and implore you not to keep your thoughts silent. Could you please tell ne how the Tennessee River system could be of help, as I do not know much about that either?
Extracted from a lengthy New York Times article about the aftermath:
Yet federal officials were not even aware there was a crowd at the convention center for three days into the crisis, according to Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Mr. Brown told network television interviewers on Thursday night that federal officials had learned about the refugees just that day.
"Don't you guys watch television?" Ted Koppel asked him on "Nightline." "Our reporters have been reporting about it for more than just today."
Mr. Brown, who indicated that officials had heard word of the problem earlier but were too busy dealing with refugees at the Superdome to confirm it , said, "We learned about it factually today that that's what existed."
Yet federal officials were not even aware there was a crowd at the convention center for three days into the crisis, according to Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Mr. Brown told network television interviewers on Thursday night that federal officials had learned about the refugees just that day.
"Don't you guys watch television?" Ted Koppel asked him on "Nightline." "Our reporters have been reporting about it for more than just today."
Mr. Brown, who indicated that officials had heard word of the problem earlier but were too busy dealing with refugees at the Superdome to confirm it , said, "We learned about it factually today that that's what existed."
We have been visiting New Orleans every year for Southern Decadence and The Jazz Festival, for several years. The city was magic. It was warm, welcoming, accepting and a pure joy to behold. I have traveled many places, to many countries and New Orleans stands out as one of the truly incredible places on the planet. My heart is breaking, or is broken. I cannot fathom the destruction, the loss of life, the lack of response, the complete lack of concern for human life. I never in my life could imagine that the images of I have seen, the stories I have read, could possibly take place on American soil. Had the timing been slightly different, and Katrina struck just one week later, my partner and I would have been in New Orleans for the Labor Day weekend. I still don't know if it was a blessing to have dodged the proverbial bullet or a curse that we weren't there. I still can't, and don't know if I ever will be able to reconcile in my heart and mind, what has happened. Regardless of my personal attachment to New Orleans, this country as a whole has been damaged and scarred, I fear, beyond repair. Heartlessness and callousness, lessens all of us.
Small and Kink, this is exactly the problem. Homeland Insecurity has absolutely nothing to do with security, and everything to do with eroding the constitutional rights of citizens. It is our own personal amerikan version of the Gestapo of the 1930s and 1940s.
My question to you all: What are you doing about it? Do you realize how far this organization reaches into your life? Here's a simple example. I moved from "middle america" to our nation's capital, some time after the so-called patriot act was passed. I noticed a new paragraph on the new-patient paperwork I filled out at my dentist, my optometrist, my primary care physician, and my pharmacist. This new paragraph states that "under the Patriot Act, your medical records may be released to any government agency requesting them in the course of carrying out their mission" or some equally lame shit like that. I always read ANYTHING before I sign it, just a holdover from the USMC I guess. Anyway, I strike through that paragraph, and write in my own: These medical records may not be released to any person, agency, or organization without my express written consent AND advance notification." I then call it to the attention of the receptionist, and I require her to initial it. I don't know how much good it does, but I at least feel like I am refusing to blindly accept the erosion of my right to privacy.
I likewise have had several run-ins with the TSA at various airports, and I NEVER let an incident pass. I file complaints with the central office, and contact my representatives in Congress to let them know that it is not acceptable.
Will anyone else join me in saying "enough is just way too fucking much!"?????
My question to you all: What are you doing about it? Do you realize how far this organization reaches into your life? Here's a simple example. I moved from "middle america" to our nation's capital, some time after the so-called patriot act was passed. I noticed a new paragraph on the new-patient paperwork I filled out at my dentist, my optometrist, my primary care physician, and my pharmacist. This new paragraph states that "under the Patriot Act, your medical records may be released to any government agency requesting them in the course of carrying out their mission" or some equally lame shit like that. I always read ANYTHING before I sign it, just a holdover from the USMC I guess. Anyway, I strike through that paragraph, and write in my own: These medical records may not be released to any person, agency, or organization without my express written consent AND advance notification." I then call it to the attention of the receptionist, and I require her to initial it. I don't know how much good it does, but I at least feel like I am refusing to blindly accept the erosion of my right to privacy.
I likewise have had several run-ins with the TSA at various airports, and I NEVER let an incident pass. I file complaints with the central office, and contact my representatives in Congress to let them know that it is not acceptable.
Will anyone else join me in saying "enough is just way too fucking much!"?????
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