Question on Katrina aftermath

[blackwood]

Fucktard??} Goodness me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for thoughtfully leaving out "Motherfucking fucktard" Your open-mindedness has been well demonstrated in your contributions continually receiving well, receiving? You are not cute? Straight??

Easy now, I didn't call you a fucktard.

NOTHING suggested in MY response is fiscally impossible........Bull doze the levies, wait a year, assess the situation and do it. Venice DOES exist and could be thought of as an answer the the mess in NOLA.

Look, we already have a massive deficit, and as has been pointed out we've already cutback significantly on domestic programs, and that makes building Venice in Louisiana pretty much impossible.

Well laddie, you can go on all nite bashing....Bush, Congress Homeland Security, YOU jacking your jaws BLAME BLAME ( is that like wa-wa-wa) WE are all to blame. The voting 51% as well a the lazy Liberals not VOTING can share. From the individuals who stayed for whatever the reason. past administrations that cut funding THE GOVENOR OF LA AND MAYOR of NOLA who knew damned well that some COULD NOT LEAVE.

I think I will. You see it's called the first amendment.

Did Galveston fade out of existence, I must have seen the ghosts of the past when I visited a few years back. It's there, and serving a purpose.

I never said that New Orleans should fade out of existence. Please reread my post. I pointed out that Galveston never came back as the port metropolis it once was. There is a difference...

Your attack on me is sure as hell misdirected, but I have found that the "generalist expert", unlike the resident expert, seldom contribute solutions.

None of the problems need be pointed out at this time, they are quite obvious.

I did not mean to attack you, so sorry if it came across that way. You're right, I don't have any answers...that is why I came here to ask questions. Yes, the problems do need to be pointed out at this time. Global warming, federal insurance subsidies for oceanfront communities, our ability to evacuate after disasters; all these need to be addressed. I can't think of a better time for discussing them.

November of last year May have held the hindsight answer of what to do. 51% of the voters fucked up in their choice, tying the rest of us to ??????????????whatever!

I don't know what to make of this sentence.

I so dislike labels. "Fucktard" --- Is that the best that our educational system has done for you, or are you "slow" son??

I like to use all the words at my disposal.
It's the words you use, not the words that you don't, that prove your intelligence.

I mean it's not to be ashamed of - LOOK our president (a two termer) was a C(-) student millioniare, and a CHEERLEADER to boot. Look how well he's done.

I don't know what being a cheerleader has to do with this argument.

Do not expect more of "YOUR LEADERS" than you can deliver yourself.

Why not? Isn't that the purpose of having a government?

OOh Yeh! Look around at the various post many have given their thoughts.

I am. That's why I started this thread.

Dr. Rock is absolutely correct. Homeland Security is about monitoring individual people and everyone is a potential terrorist. It is about monitoring airports, customs and the like. Homeland Security has nothing to do with what to do AFTER disaster strikes.

I am sorry if I misspoke, as I am uninformed on this subject. I was under the impression that part of th post 9/11 reforms were aimed at increasing the fluidity of communications between national, state, and local governments, and also at increasing the ability of emergency personel to respond to post disaster situations (at least the 9/11 Commission report stated that they should be). It would appear that those reforms are either woefully inadequate, incomplete, or infeasible ever. I don't know which of these is the correct answer and would appreciate it if some members of this group could help enlighten me.

The entire paragraph on chain of command makes sense to me, but what can be done to restructure civilian bureaucracy to respond to disastors to respond like the military, without also stiffling dissenting opinions (as the military tends to do) during non-crisis times?

Yes, it is Bush's fault. He was too busy giving policy possition speeches in California on Iraq and enjoying his vacation on the ranch. He should have called out the army immediately and not waited several days.

I agree with this entire sentence, but I feel the duty to question the "vacation" meme. Isn't it entirely possible for a President, so inclined, in this age of communications to run the show from Crawford, or from Cape Cod for that matter? Besides, we all know that, at the very least, Bush is not a hands on President. He delegates (ie lets other make the tough decisions).

[post=340573]Quoted post[/post]​

I should have kept my ideas silent.....BUT so many do and here we are. Iwould see the cost of canal city the required delay. The Tenneessee River system should be of some help.

Apologies for my growing fear of where we are REALLY going. I'm near dead, my two sons one 35 and one 30 are well inline to live to see the results. I assume that you will be facing the same................It's wrong............

blackwood

[post=340583]Quoted post[/post]​

No apologies are necessary. Times are hard and emotional responses are to be expected. I'm only 20, so needless to say, I will see the results(barring some unforeseen catasthrophe); and implore you not to keep your thoughts silent. Could you please tell ne how the Tennessee River system could be of help, as I do not know much about that either?

[post=340586]Quoted post[/post]​

Do a search for TOMBIGBEE WATERWAY....................This is a series of canals, rivers (including the Tenneessee R) and lakes supported by man-made lakes running from the Ohio and Mississippi(sp) Rivers at Paducah, Kentucky to Mobile Ala.

It dosen't look like much BUT! AFTER A FRIEND OF THE FAMILY LOST A 70' TRUMPHY M/Y and his crew on the Mississippi I investigated and found safer/lighter traffic and ample waterways to bypass the lower one-third of ole Muddy Miss. Things would slow down, but maybe they should anyway.

The Corps of Engineers did well...

I would refer you to the charts, but biginning with my heart attack in 91 and other viscious assaults by nature since, gave it all up with the boat, and damned near everything else.

I again offer you an apology, at age 20, you sound like you are in good control of self.

I have become a grumpy ol man.

blackwood

 

[smallman]

Originally posted by DC_DEEP@Sep 4 2005, 08:28 AM
Small and Kink, this is exactly the problem. Homeland Insecurity has absolutely nothing to do with security, and everything to do with eroding the constitutional rights of citizens. It is our own personal amerikan version of the Gestapo of the 1930s and 1940s.

My question to you all: What are you doing about it? Do you realize how far this organization reaches into your life? Here's a simple example. I moved from "middle america" to our nation's capital, some time after the so-called patriot act was passed. I noticed a new paragraph on the new-patient paperwork I filled out at my dentist, my optometrist, my primary care physician, and my pharmacist. This new paragraph states that "under the Patriot Act, your medical records may be released to any government agency requesting them in the course of carrying out their mission" or some equally lame shit like that. I always read ANYTHING before I sign it, just a holdover from the USMC I guess. Anyway, I strike through that paragraph, and write in my own: These medical records may not be released to any person, agency, or organization without my express written consent AND advance notification." I then call it to the attention of the receptionist, and I require her to initial it. I don't know how much good it does, but I at least feel like I am refusing to blindly accept the erosion of my right to privacy.

I likewise have had several run-ins with the TSA at various airports, and I NEVER let an incident pass. I file complaints with the central office, and contact my representatives in Congress to let them know that it is not acceptable.

Will anyone else join me in saying "enough is just way too fucking much!"?????

[post=340623]Quoted post[/post]​

I don't think the the things you sighted qualify as "too fucking much" in my book, but then again we all have our own standards, don't we?

 

[smallman]

blackwood- Thanks for the info. I'm looking it up now. Again, no need to apologize. In my opinion being a grumpy old man is one of the greatest benefits of a long and full life.

 

[KinkGuy]

Originally posted by smallman@Sep 4 2005, 10:18 AM
I don't think the the things you sighted qualify as "too fucking much" in my book, but then again we all have our own standards, don't we?

[post=340641]Quoted post[/post]​

Apparently.

 

[Freddie53]

A through investigation into all of this should be done by Congress and demanded by the American people. If the posts that the federal agencies "didn't know" information that there were people at the convention center that everyone in the whole world who watches CNN knew two days earlier, shows that at least in domestic affairs we have one of the most incompetent governments in the world.

Kink,

I didn't know funds were cut for FEMA. But we had to have that TAX CUT for the rich. I didnt' see my taxes go down. I'm glad that didn't. At least I don't have to know that I got a tax break and part of that extra money could have saved some of those thousands who are dead in New Orleans.

And I heard a man opn CNN begging for someone to come resuce him in his house. He only has 3 gallons of water left and enough food for three days. Why are we not sending enough troops in to save these people? Why are we letting them die from dehydration and starving to death?

If we can have impeachment hearings and a trial for Bill Clinton for letting a young lady put his penis in her mouth and lying to keep Hillary from finding out, then if this is incompetence from our President, he should be impeached. If our Senators and Representatives are at fault for passing bad legislation, steps by whatever means possible should be taken to remove them from office as well. And the heads of departments that don't know their ass from a hold in the ground should be fired.

This is a disgrace, an absolute disgrace that we didn't take care of our own people. Some people get their panties in a wad over so called "sexual sins" and the fact that someone might have masturbated sometime in his past or looked at dirty pictures. The sin of letting people die needlessly is close to murder.

Jesus said, "If you have done it to the least of my brethren, you have done it unto me." If this is true and you are a Christian, then you have to believe that what we have done is the same and those responsible have allowed Jesus himself to dehydrate and die from starvation. Then going same people go to the church and take Holy Communion on Sunday. This is the height of hypocrisy.

May God have mercy on the souls of those people who are responsible for this horrid, unnecessary calamity of allowing thousands to needless die.

Sorry for the rant, but as I watch CNN my heart is burdened. I am pissed. Highly pissed. This is an outrage.

In our small county of 50,000 people, we have over 1000 evacues. I will be working on getting a college freshman into a college free of room and board and our church will feed 120 people Tuesday. Churches are taking turns taking care of different meals at different sites. My wife will fix two vegetable dishes for 120 people and we will provide fried chicken as well. I am poud to say that all the churches in our county are working together. The United Methodist Church is providing all kinds of survival kits. In our state, we got a bottling company to provide at cost bottled water and have big trucks hauling water to those who don't have water. All our pastors are assigned areas to work with relief. But it isn't enough. It isn't nearly enough.

The worst may be yet to come. Lines at the convention center pale compared to body bags stacked to the ceiling. My heart is broken for all those suffering and for those who in the next few days will find out that their precious loved ones by the thousands are dead.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

Originally posted by smallman@Sep 3 2005, 07:40 PM
Personally I see the entire fiasco not only as a political black eye for Bush, but as a political black eye for Homeland Security. They had a couple days to prepare, which they wouldn't have gotten if, say, a chemical attack happened in New Orleans; and yet, they were still unable to orderly evacuate the city in the aftermath. I think there has been some serious break down in the interaction between federal, state, and local governments. Basically what it boils down to is this, besides efforts to allow rescue and emergency workers the ability to communicate in a disaster, Homeland Security would be fundamentally unable to protect us in times of emergency. Is it just a placebo to make citizens feel more secure than they are, or what? I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter, as I admittedly do not know all that I could on it.

[post=340501]Quoted post[/post]​

I agree its a black eye for Homeland Security. For all the money we've spent supposedly preparing for large magnitude civic disasters, it seems the preparation for and respone to Katrina was inadequate.

Could more have been done? I don't know all the facts but I've worked for 20 years in disaster management and I've seen even the best laid plans go awry. Still, Katrina does seem to have revealed weakness spots in our planning. Perhaps we can learn from it.

Do I hold the Bush administration to be at fault? I'm not as quick to lay all the blame at the feet of GWB, but, the truth remains that he's the one at the helm now so he takes either the credit or the blame for what transpires. But the same result could easily have happened to a Kerry administration, a Gore administration or a Clinton administration. In my opinion, though, GWB does take a black eye for golfing at fundraisers while NOLA drowned. Shades of Daryl Gates at the strart of the Rodney King riots.

I do think Homeland Security is largely a placebo. Its just a another bureaucracy propelled by the same forces that influence bureaucracies nationwide, namely: careerism and cronyism amongst its managers, risk aversion, lack of vision, internal turf battles and politics, adherence to "procedure" and mountains upon mountains of paperwork. Anyone feel safer?

SG

 

[KinkGuy]

FEMA and Homeland Security knew on FRIDAY that Katrina would most likely strike this region as no less than a category 4. What did everyone do?







Nothing.

 

[KinkGuy]

And on the THURSDAY NIGHT following the disaster, a full 3 days later, FEMA and H.S. admitted they didn't even know there were people at the New Orleans Convention Center in need of help.

That's interesting..................since everyone else in the world knew about those victims from WATCHING FUCKING TELEVISION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Pye]

I've been following this guy's postings in a yahoo group-- he's a firefighter in NO and he's down there risking his life to help others. Each writing there is something that he mentions that really amazes me about some of the heros out there and it can also amaze me about the ugly side of human nature:

ricky <surfinstroking@yahoo.com>

Hello guys. I want, No, I guess I need to tell ya&#39;all about someone I met today. Well, maybe it was yesterday. I really don&#39;t know. In this surreal environment, the images, the fire calls, the rescues, the recoveries, the faces...they are all merging and blurring for me now.
First I need you to remember that New Orleans is not flooded with water. We are flooded with sewage. Rotting raw waste, oil, gas, rotted food, dead bodies, chemicals God only knows what methyl Ethyl bad stuff is here.
I was working with a couple of guys a few blocks from the Superdome in a residential neighborhood. We were going from house to house looking for living people, but finding many more dead than alive. We were wading through about three foot of whatever this stuff is that is several feet deep and all through town. A couple of guys in civilian clothes came by with a small fishing boat. We exchanged nods and they started doing the same thing we were. A while later and a few doors down, I noticed one of the guys was escorting a frail elderly man across a yard toward the boat. The mas started to fall and this guy swept him up with so much tenderness it touched my heart. I was pleased to see a volunteer civilian there, and doing that. A few minutes later, the same civilian was escorting a very frail looking women across the same yard. I started that direction to see if there might be more in need. The women slipped and disappeared. This civilian didn&#39;t blink, he dove, yes he dove head first into the sewage/slop whatever and surfaced with a lady in his arms. He tenderly wiped the sludge from her face as he carried her toward the boat. He sat this lady in the boat like you would imagine a new groom setting down his bride. At that point I was along this civilian and reached out to shake his hand, when I recognized him as being Sean Penn. He confirmed his identity and asked me if he was doing alright and asked me to let him know if we needed his help. He said he was going to take this couple to the hospital and would be back soon.
I looked around to see where the TV cameras were, and there were none. I have read the bad boy negative press about Sean Penn for years, and I guess I had believed it. Almost an hour later Sean was back. In and out of the boat, in and out of yards, in and out of homes,back and forth to the hospital, and I never did see any reporters or cameras. Sean came here, probably without any ones permission from wherever it is that he usually is, and with a determined look upon his face and an even more determined attitude, risking the deadly water snakes infesting this wet stuff all over, wading sometimes neck deep, and doing as much or more than anyone else could do.
Guys, ya&#39;all have TVs and probably know more about the whole picture here than I do. My guess is that bunches of celebrities have called press conferences and have donated bunches of money to this cause like they always do. Sean Penn, whom I have never had positive feelings for has earned my respect. From my short exchange with him, and from the way he carried himself, I will be floored to hear of him doing any of this for publicity. It was too hands on, tender and determined for that.
I have just heard that we are to refuse to give anyone else who refuses to leave New Orleans any food or water. I hope this is not an official command. I would rather pick someone up with force and cause them to leave than to starve them into wanting to leave. This place is becoming more unhealthy/deadly by the minute. I&#39;m not sure who&#39;s running this part of the world now, be it the local, State or Federal authorities. I for one will continue to do whatever I can to help the local people as long as I have access to any food or water.
We have abandoned any regular type schedule here. Being a firefighter/medic, my main concern is fire calls, backed up by medical assistance and as possible rescue/recovery work. Sleep is hard to come by, there is such a sense of urgency. As I drop off my mind spins with concerns about who I may be able to help if I just could stay awake for a bit longer. Guys, don&#39;t worry, I am smart enough, and have been drilled and drilled in training to take at least basic care of myself so-as not to become a part of the problem, instead of help in solving the problem. While I haven&#39;t much appetite, and find it hard to sleep, I am getting an adequate supply of both.
For those of you who haven&#39;t looked at my profile picture. I am a scrawny little dude. The guys in the department have always kidded me about being handy in getting into small places to fight fires. This has been real usefull this week. I prefer tp slip through small openings in attics and crawl spaces instead of having to axe and chainsaw big openings in peoples homes. We try in inflict as little damage as possible, just in case the homeowners are still alive and want to return home.
Well guys, I have dried off, eaten and rested abit. There are a couple of hours of daylight yet, I&#39;m headed back out to see what help I can be or trouble I can get into

 

[smallman]

Originally posted by Pye@Sep 5 2005, 08:37 PM
I&#39;ve been following this guy&#39;s postings in a yahoo group-- he&#39;s a firefighter in NO and he&#39;s down there risking his life to help others. Each writing there is something that he mentions that really amazes me about some of the heros out there and it can also amaze me about the ugly side of human nature:

ricky <surfinstroking@yahoo.com>

Hello guys. I want, No, I guess I need to tell ya&#39;all about someone I met today. Well, maybe it was yesterday. I really don&#39;t know. In this surreal environment, the images, the fire calls, the rescues, the recoveries, the faces...they are all merging and blurring for me now.
First I need you to remember that New Orleans is not flooded with water. We are flooded with sewage. Rotting raw waste, oil, gas, rotted food, dead bodies, chemicals God only knows what methyl Ethyl bad stuff is here.
I was working with a couple of guys a few blocks from the Superdome in a residential neighborhood. We were going from house to house looking for living people, but finding many more dead than alive. We were wading through about three foot of whatever this stuff is that is several feet deep and all through town. A couple of guys in civilian clothes came by with a small fishing boat. We exchanged nods and they started doing the same thing we were. A while later and a few doors down, I noticed one of the guys was escorting a frail elderly man across a yard toward the boat. The mas started to fall and this guy swept him up with so much tenderness it touched my heart. I was pleased to see a volunteer civilian there, and doing that. A few minutes later, the same civilian was escorting a very frail looking women across the same yard. I started that direction to see if there might be more in need. The women slipped and disappeared. This civilian didn&#39;t blink, he dove, yes he dove head first into the sewage/slop whatever and surfaced with a lady in his arms. He tenderly wiped the sludge from her face as he carried her toward the boat. He sat this lady in the boat like you would imagine a new groom setting down his bride. At that point I was along this civilian and reached out to shake his hand, when I recognized him as being Sean Penn. He confirmed his identity and asked me if he was doing alright and asked me to let him know if we needed his help. He said he was going to take this couple to the hospital and would be back soon.
I looked around to see where the TV cameras were, and there were none. I have read the bad boy negative press about Sean Penn for years, and I guess I had believed it. Almost an hour later Sean was back. In and out of the boat, in and out of yards, in and out of homes,back and forth to the hospital, and I never did see any reporters or cameras. Sean came here, probably without any ones permission from wherever it is that he usually is, and with a determined look upon his face and an even more determined attitude, risking the deadly water snakes infesting this wet stuff all over, wading sometimes neck deep, and doing as much or more than anyone else could do.
Guys, ya&#39;all have TVs and probably know more about the whole picture here than I do. My guess is that bunches of celebrities have called press conferences and have donated bunches of money to this cause like they always do. Sean Penn, whom I have never had positive feelings for has earned my respect. From my short exchange with him, and from the way he carried himself, I will be floored to hear of him doing any of this for publicity. It was too hands on, tender and determined for that.
I have just heard that we are to refuse to give anyone else who refuses to leave New Orleans any food or water. I hope this is not an official command. I would rather pick someone up with force and cause them to leave than to starve them into wanting to leave. This place is becoming more unhealthy/deadly by the minute. I&#39;m not sure who&#39;s running this part of the world now, be it the local, State or Federal authorities. I for one will continue to do whatever I can to help the local people as long as I have access to any food or water.
We have abandoned any regular type schedule here. Being a firefighter/medic, my main concern is fire calls, backed up by medical assistance and as possible rescue/recovery work. Sleep is hard to come by, there is such a sense of urgency. As I drop off my mind spins with concerns about who I may be able to help if I just could stay awake for a bit longer. Guys, don&#39;t worry, I am smart enough, and have been drilled and drilled in training to take at least basic care of myself so-as not to become a part of the problem, instead of help in solving the problem. While I haven&#39;t much appetite, and find it hard to sleep, I am getting an adequate supply of both.
For those of you who haven&#39;t looked at my profile picture. I am a scrawny little dude. The guys in the department have always kidded me about being handy in getting into small places to fight fires. This has been real usefull this week. I prefer tp slip through small openings in attics and crawl spaces instead of having to axe and chainsaw big openings in peoples homes. We try in inflict as little damage as possible, just in case the homeowners are still alive and want to return home.
Well guys, I have dried off, eaten and rested abit. There are a couple of hours of daylight yet, I&#39;m headed back out to see what help I can be or trouble I can get into

[post=340935]Quoted post[/post]​

That&#39;s a pretty amazing story. I will admit that although I often do not agree with Penn on a lot of political issue (and find the films he&#39;s in to be a mixed bag), he has always seemed like a celebrity who is actually committed to the causes he supports. I never got that camera chaser air from him, and this story proves it. I&#39;m glad you shared.

 

[jay_too]

I usually enjoy anything Sean Penn is in; I can say the same for Tom Hanks and Robert DeNiro and probably a few others.

I can admire his passion and activism despite not agreeing with all positions. A side note, he is a victim of the McCarthy days when his father, a filmwriter, was blacklisted.

This morning I caught a short interview of Sean and a fireman on CNN. I was impressed by his humility and the genuine need to see and to help. The fireman is the one that told the world of Sean&#39;s bravery, kindness, and humanity under the intolerable conditions.

jay

 

[smallman]

CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE AND KATRINA?



National Response Plan: Bush&#39;s own plan says that the federal government, reserves the right to take control from local governments in the case of "any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions".

Hat tip :Andrew Sullivan

 

[jay_too]

I find that it is amazing that neither Homeland Security nor the NOLA government implemented their emergency response plans. I have worked on emergency response plans for chemical plants and find it hard to believe that the calls would not be made to the implementing authority when actual or predicted conditions were met. In industry, I am pretty sure that all would be fired including the top man who did not get the call. It is the manager&#39;s responsibility to see that response plans are implemented correctly; this includes notifications.

It would appear that the millions spent on catastrophic response preparedness by local and federal agencies were dollars flushed down the toilet. While I tend to agree with the President that now is not the time for the "blame game," unless there is accountability, there will be no long term solution. To me, the negligence is criminal. What laws did they break? I do not know, but I think that more than a few should spend some time in prison.

jay

 

[KinkGuy]

Originally posted by jay_too@Sep 6 2005, 05:35 PM
While I tend to agree with the President that now is not the time for the "blame game," unless there is accountability, there will be no long term solution. jay

[post=341128]Quoted post[/post]​

If not now, before the spinmeisters accomplish their PR-Political goals, when?

 

[KinkGuy]

Yikes&#33; Double post.

 

[smallman]

on CNN yesterday: "[Bush] said, &#39;Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor.&#39; I said -- and I don&#39;t remember exactly what. There were two options. I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision." -New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin

 

[warmsunshine]

(jay_too @ Sep 6 2005, 05:35 PM)
While I tend to agree with the President that now is not the time for the "blame game," unless there is accountability, there will be no long term solution. jay



If not now, before the spinmeisters accomplish their PR-Political goals, when?

Exactly. Bush and Republican officials seem to be saying that we can&#39;t walk and chew gum at the same time. The longer we wait for an investigation, the less will be done and the fewer heads will roll (and knowing this administration, if any). Hell, Brown will probably be given the Medal of Freedom. The only freedom this guy should be given is the one from his job.

To quote Jefferson Parish President Broussard:

"Take whatever idiot they have at the top of whatever agency and give me a better idiot. Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don&#39;t give me the same idiot."