The Incel Problem

michael_3165

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So, I have been looking into a number of social issues and one of the key things that fascinates me is these so called "incels".

For those who aren't familiar, incels are "involutarily celibate". They are often angry young white guys who feel that society has treated them badly; that women in particular bleat on [as one I read had said] about injustices and felt that their white privilege was far from privilege in their own lives. They congregate in groups and forums online; often follow similarly minded men online. They will hate on "chad" types (guys who "have it all"; looks being the main thing) and how they have it so much harder than other more popular guys.

These types are becoming more and more of a problem in society. In recent times we have had at least one shooting in the UK that was directly related to incel culture and many mass shooters in the US could be defined as incel.

My question is what do we do about them? I try to come at it from a compassionate stance and at the same time the lack of responsibility being taken on their side is rather insidious. The belief that women "owe" men something is a widely held on in this community and they spew venom and anger at feminists in particular.

I feel we need to get to the root cause of the whole thing. Boys do not have positive role models any longer. They don't know how to socialise with anyone - particularly women - because the online age has allowed them to essentially live in an online bubble where they don't learn social skills. We need to bring back mentoring, community networks, a sense of belonging and commitment to society IMO. I also suspect that dialling down the "white straight man privilege" rhetoric wouldn't be a bad idea, because many of these young men feel demonised and told that they have a good lot when they aren't seeing it in action.

So, what are your thoughts on incels and what can be done to bring them into - not push them out of - society? Something must change, women are suffering terrible abuse from these people and they themselves are hardly feeling any good about things either.
 

halcyondays

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Easy. Outlaw social media apps. They are destroying what little culture we have--isolating people, even family members in the same house, instead of bringing them together. Want to talk? Trash, gossip or otherwise? Do it in person.

Ban all texting apps on all devices for the under 18s. Ban smartphones from their schools.

As for role models teaching a young (then) heteronormative man how to deal with women my mother was the best teacher. Her advice was that I ask out lots of women because men ask and women say no. Don't take rejection personally. One woman in ten or twenty might say yes. You might be surprised who says yes and how much fun they are. Don't ask just the girls you're crushing on. Even the ones who reject you will never forget you had the courage to ask.

She was right. I took her advice, started getting a few dates and then lots of dates which got me noticed by lots of young ladies who never noticed me before. By the time I finished high school I had dated a cheerleader, majorettes and other hot chicks as well as several young ladies not in the popular set who had been as invisible as I had been.

It took practice to set my ego aside when rejected. It helped that I asked girls almost randomly just to get used to being rejected. It also helped that I asked girls on whom I didn't have crushes or feelings but liked well enough to find out who they were, what they liked and what their lives were.

It helped not to take it seriously--making light of rejection so the girls rejecting me didn't feel bad for doing so. My older sister helped me with that bit. I hadn't realized that girls felt bad/awkward when having to reject a guy though how badly depends on the guy. I would make some dumb quip like It's okay to say no and if she said no I'd smile, clutch my chest and say You're breaking my heart and if she said Really? I'd say Yes I'm absolutely shattered and not sure I can to go on living. All said in jest so she knew I meant the opposite. God I even quoted lines from Shakespeare if it'd get a laugh.

Banter is becoming a lost art. It's like young people don't know how to do it. They text one or two word replies back and forth. I suppose it's better than nothing but really?

Men need to realize they are masters of their own destinies and stop blaming women. Don't be afraid to fail. Don't be afraid of looking stupid or dumb. Get out there and make it happen. No one's going to do it for you. What? Your crush doesn't have the same feelings for you and shot you down? That's cause for instant moving on to the next one. Yes you will feel the heartache of unrequited love but that's a good thing. I means you have one. :heart:

Incels need to turn off their devices and go live in the real world. They're not alone. Everyone does.

I keep hoping the novelty of the net and smartphones will wear off but they are programmed to manipulate and addict the human mind to (pleasure center) stimulation we should be getting elsewhere. It's not new. For my parents' generation the new addiction was radio. For mine it was television. For millennials+ it's social media.

Entertainment is fine but life begins for me when I turn off radio, tv and social media and do something real.
 

Sagittarius84

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I'm going to watch this thread a bit more before I provide what I think are answers to the "incel problem"..
All I will say is I think a lot of what people say is the "problem" has more to do with the consequences that come with an incel population than mitigating that population's growth.

I'll also deviate on the social media/tech/entertainment angle, wherein I think for involuntarily celibate men specifically, has been the best buffer against what are historically the catastrophic consequences of a large, unmarried/unpartnered male population. I think it's provided some measure of a social construct, and non woman related distractions, even though it is prone to toxic echo chambers, and I also think it has allowed them to be a bit less nebulous about their situation, more privy to historical context and statistics as opposed to anecdotes and platitudes.
 
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techpump

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I think its porn addiction run amok on guys who are OCD and cannot break out of the shell of "society says I'm adequate but the internet--which I see as society--shows me I am not" kind of thinking. I know I guy I've emailed for the last 6 years who told me he was "celibate" but then revealed he's actually a virgin when I pressed if he was celibate because of bad past relationships. He had this "and I'll be damned if a relationship doesn't go my way" ideal. He's since changed his ideas on all of this and is moving forward in his life, but he admitted he was a pretty heavy porn user since he was young, and had all the guilt and shame really on the forefront of his sexuality where guilt defined him sexually.

I think incel culture has grown as internet porn has grown. Guys don't need to go out into the real world to get exactly what they believe they really want. There are programs and docs on this stuff now, I find it all fascinating. I did read that researchers are literally worried about near future population growth because so many men are refusing to be with women. Look up the numbers for Japan now, its quite alarming.
 

elklindoxxx

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Maybe I'm old fashioned or something.

If you want to pick up a girl then try working out at the gym to lose weight and a little muscled up, get a nice hair cut and properly groom yourself, start looking presentable and stop dressing like a slob and most importantly work on having a good personality.

And if you like someone go and ask them on a date. The worst that can happen is they say no, other wise you are good to go....It's not rocket science.
 

Rugbypup

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The social sexual liberation of women over the 20th/21st centuries has changed the dynamic of the sexual market place. Woman are no long bound to finding a husband for support as many folk‘s mothers and grandmothers were. This essentially means women are free to indulge in there hypergamous nature, resulting typically in only about 20% of men appealing to roughly 80% of women. Men are seemingly very slow to catch on to this change. This, plus arguably the over influence of frankly toxic feminist agendas in modern society has devalued if not out right demonised classical masculinity in society.

Young men are left feeling confused, undervalued and undesirable to the modern sexual market place.

What can they do about it?

Well, work at becoming part of the desirable 20%, or accept you’re unappealing to the majority of women today, or learn to love the bromance and turn to the dark side, lol.

There are some fascinating documentaries on this subject online and most are very enlightening and disheartening.
 
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deleted5199391

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This kind of people are marginized, and totally the opposite of privileged. Btw, the whole "White straight Cis male privilege" is a scam that politicians invented to don't talk about poor people so yes, it should be stopped asap.
Those kind of incels are just the more evident part. A lot of incels, bot men and women, are just what the word says: alone but not for their choice.

People tend to get angry when they feel bad for a long time, and a easy way to point that anger and blame towards someone else is to find a enemy.
You can check by political parties, usually. There are a lot of enemies: immigrants, white, non white, males, females, deep state, etc.
Divide and conquer, someone said.

It's almost inevitable that those guys fall for this kind of narrative.
Before even thinking to "educate" them, everyone should stop to promote this divisive narrative. Otherwise, they would just be pushed in the hands of people that exploit weaknesses.
 

Sagittarius84

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I also suspect that dialling down the "white straight man privilege" rhetoric wouldn't be a bad idea, because many of these young men feel demonised and told that they have a good lot when they aren't seeing it in action.

Btw, the whole "White straight Cis male privilege" is a scam that politicians invented to don't talk about poor people so yes, it should be stopped asap.
I keep hearing this sentiment and I get confused. I agree the societal upheavals that are upending the mating and dating world are much more widespread than just one particular male demographic...I also agree that demographic is often scapegoated as a means to not talk about the deeper things going on...
But I think particularly in the West there is a traditional pedestal upon which white cishetero men placed themselves relative to everyone else, and were more likely to react violently when that pedestal was questioned or taken down across all tax brackets.
I guess I always figured this was a walk and chew gum at the same time type of situation where rampant, unchecked hypergamy and white male privilege could both be addressed. Or are we just denying the classical European male propensity for creating biracials from every coast on Earth while simultaneously dreading the prospect of melenated penises getting into white women's wombs has ever or still exists...Remember "Chad" is bad but "Tyrone" has inspired mass shootings left and right.
 

Tight_N_Juicy

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Incels are the epitome of entitlement.

They have this idea that they are owed sex. They think that women (every incel I've ever heard of or encountered is a straight man seeking sex from women) are *supposed* to fuck them.. And that when we don't it's because we're the ones who can't make good decisions. We're the ones who have "wrong" personal choices about who is and isn't attractive and why. It's never "maybe I should work on my self image", it's always "she's stuck up and only wants to fuck 'Chad' "

That's why we see so many lashing out. Spoiled, entitled fucks throw tantrums. Violent tantrums.

I'm talking about people who self-identify as "incel". I've known people who were not sexually active and wanted to be who didn't blame everyone around them for their frustration. People who use that term to describe themselves and use the phrases/terminology of the INCEL community are people I want to stay far away from. And they know that, which makes them that much more dangerous. It's a vicious cycle. And on their minds, I'm the one to blame for their anger and frustration. People like me are the ones they want to take it out on. It circles back to entitlement. They think they're owed something I'm not giving them, so I deserve to be punished somehow.

It's some fucking bullshit, and honestly it scares me. Not a whole lot does, but this incel shit puts me on edge.

(I didn't read the whole thread before posting, full disclosure)
 

Infernal

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A lot of times I think the "Incel" is an excuse for their own failings. When you have poor social skills, can't carry on a conversation, and lack self-confidence, it isn't the opposite sex that is the source of your frustration. Women aren't denying you a sexual outlet, your utterly horrible personality drives people away. Work on yourself and others will see the change.
 

englad

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I’m not sure. Many of these guys need to hit them gym and realize there are women for everyone out there. Not every Chad wants every girl

Incels tend to be much uglier on the inside than they are on the outside.
 

elklindoxxx

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A lot of times I think the "Incel" is an excuse for their own failings. When you have poor social skills, can't carry on a conversation, and lack self-confidence, it isn't the opposite sex that is the source of your frustration. Women aren't denying you a sexual outlet, your utterly horrible personality drives people away. Work on yourself and others will see the change.
Yes...exactly.

There was this dude at my last job who was an absolute slob with an awful personality not to mention his bad breath and nasty teeth (OMG....when was the last time he saw the dentist). He was the exact opposite of a chick magnet. This guy thought he was entitled to have a woman and he blathers on about how looks shouldn't matter and blah blah....blah. Interestingly enough he goes on to ask me as to how to how I got to be friends with some of the women who we work with. So I politely and tactfully explain that women want men who basically take of themselves and we all know that women spend a lot of time, money and effort in making themselves presentable. So, he wasn't having any of it, and that's the problem with some of these people. They think they can do whatever feel like and women are going to flock to them. And we all know that's bullshit.

At the last job, I'm not kidding when I say that I got fucking laid by 4 different women. They were not the hottest women but they were decent looking. I'm not that picky and I'm certainly not going to turn down some decent tail. These women don't want to get laid by some fat slob...we all know that. They want to get laid by some good looking, lean and well muscled dude with a 7" dick....hint hint wink wink. These women see something good and they don't waste any time and go after it right away.

I was on the job for about a week until one day I was drinking a cup of water at the cooler when I was approached by this decent looking woman (She was a little younger than me but that's OK) and introduced herself and started a conversation. We got to know each other and I asked her if she wanted to go and have a cup a of coffee at Starbucks and she said yes. And we went from there.

You know....you will be successful in life by just getting the simple shit done right.
 
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deleted5199391

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A lot of times I think the "Incel" is an excuse for their own failings. When you have poor social skills, can't carry on a conversation, and lack self-confidence, it isn't the opposite sex that is the source of your frustration. Women aren't denying you a sexual outlet, your utterly horrible personality drives people away. Work on yourself and others will see the change.
Being an incel is just a classification.
And ofc if you really are one of them, there's something that doesn't work when trying to get a GF or a BF.
The problem comes when a fragile community becomes the target of propaganda, and someone tries to tell them why they are incel.
This is how this become a social problem, but it's a different thing from actually being incel by definition.
 
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Sagittarius84

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A lot of times I think the "Incel" is an excuse for their own failings. When you have poor social skills, can't carry on a conversation, and lack self-confidence, it isn't the opposite sex that is the source of your frustration. Women aren't denying you a sexual outlet, your utterly horrible personality drives people away. Work on yourself and others will see the change.
I think the pushback argument to that is increasingly how women's "failings" as per appearance and/or social skills cannot be quoted nor used as reasoning for them not getting the relationships and partners they prefer, so why is it open season on men? If the conventional argument is we don't deserve women at their best if we don't embrace them at their worst, where's the reciprocation?

Also teledildonics, VR, sex dolls, and legalized prostitution could largely solve the sexual outlet problem easily and separate the frustratedly(and thus prone to toxic influences)sexless from the truly entitled...But yet no real push amongst women to legalize or un-demonize ways for men to get the sexual outlet they crave without violating women's comfort/safety or playing to womens' subjective amicabilities...which tells me there's a bit more at play here.
 
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deleted5199391

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Excuse me, admins, where in my comments I talked badly about a nationality or a country? I am really confused.
 

englad

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I think the pushback argument to that is increasingly how women's "failings" as per appearance and/or social skills cannot be quoted nor used as reasoning for them not getting the relationships and partners they prefer, so why is it open season on men? If the conventional argument is we don't deserve women at their best if we don't embrace them at their worst, where's the reciprocation?

Also teledildonics, VR, sex dolls, and legalized prostitution could largely solve the sexual outlet problem easily and separate the frustratedly(and thus prone to toxic influences)sexless from the truly entitled...But yet no real push amongst women to legalize or un-demonize ways for men to get the sexual outlet they crave without violating women's comfort/safety or playing to womens' subjective amicabilities...which tells me there's a bit more at play here.

Female incels (or "femcels") do exist, but from what I've heard of them, they tend to project the hate inwards instead of outwards. Here's an interesting article on the topic:

‘I feel hurt that my life has ended up here’: The women who are involuntary celibates

Quoting directly from the article:

Theirs is a non-violent resistance. Rather than blaming the opposite sex for their unhappiness, as some of their male counterparts do, femcels tend to believe their own “ugliness” is the root cause of their loneliness. Posting anonymously on platforms they have designed for themselves, they argue that they are invisible due to their abnormal appearance, and that our beauty-centric, misogynistic culture prevents them from being accepted. There is anger and open grappling with self-esteem, but no extreme hatred and no sense of entitlement within the community.
 

Tight_N_Juicy

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I think the pushback argument to that is increasingly how women's "failings" as per appearance and/or social skills cannot be quoted nor used as reasoning for them not getting the relationships and partners they prefer, so why is it open season on men? If the conventional argument is we don't deserve women at their best if we don't embrace them at their worst, where's the reciprocation?

Also teledildonics, VR, sex dolls, and legalized prostitution could largely solve the sexual outlet problem easily and separate the frustratedly(and thus prone to toxic influences)sexless from the truly entitled...But yet no real push amongst women to legalize or un-demonize ways for men to get the sexual outlet they crave without violating women's comfort/safety or playing to womens' subjective amicabilities...which tells me there's a bit more at play here.

That's just it tho, men are the ones who don't have the same "standards" when it comes to seeking sex. They (the ones who Lazer focus on the fact that women generally have an easier time finding someone willing to fuck) can't see that 1. women do get rejected and 2. the fact that (some) men are willing to stick their dick in someone they aren't even attracted to or like at all on any level isn't women's fault. But they (INCELs) still blame women and hate us for their lack of wet-peen.

They get angry at women for having "standards" and they often think the ones we set for ourselves are wrong. They're just entitled, rotten assholes who refuse to accept their flaws and take out their sexual frustration on innocent people who had nothing to do with them not getting fucked.
 
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deleted1074483

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just to add my own thought to 'the problem of incels' is that if you're into any particular 'thing' on the internet, then the internet pushes even more of the same to you - so if you belong to the 'incel' community online, you just get fed more and more of the same, but no alternative views or challenges to those beliefs. What then happens is that what is fed to you (by numerous algorithms as well as the rabbit down the hole issue with the internet) is that what you believe is constantly just reinforced with no or little deviation. The deeper you get in the more you get that confirmation back that your view/what you believe is the absolute truth.

This happens with everything on the internet, whether looking for something simple like party supplies to conspiracy theories.

So is part of the solution that the 'internet' shouldn't have these algorithms that end up just reinforcing what you're already looking for? Not sure how you do that as we have no control over what the 'internet' does other than by using our own intelligence and control?
 

Scarletbegonia

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Incels tend to be much uglier on the inside than they are on the outside.
And no amount of exercise or haircuts will address that.
What I’ve found interesting in this thread is the basic assumption of “go outside and play” (interact, hit the gym), is seen as the issue. That it’s actually the individual.
It isn’t. It’s a pushback on women and women’s rights. That quickly overlaps into finding the racist, fear based communities online.