Abortion arguments

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by Lex+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lex)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-GottaBigOne
...

The major point of that is not the degree to which the son/daughter needs the mother, but that the mother should have the choice of what she does with her body, regardless of the wishes on another human being. No human being, even one in the womb has the right to be a parasite on another human being. If the woman so chooses, then she can carry the fetus to term, but she should not be forced to, that is tantamount to indentured servitude, to slavery.


THAT is the crux of the argument and why pro-life activists will fall short with the "murder" argument. Whether we agree with the privacy issue or not--it IS how the ruling was decided and, thus, will need to be the conerstone of overturning the ruling.
[/b][/quote]
Question: How do you respond to those who contend that the unborn child is a parasite and that by acknowledging its right to life you are giving him more rights than the mother; as no “born” person has the right to live off another’s body. When you have shot down all their arguments this is what it boils down to for them.

Reply: The position you describe was, in the early days of the abortion struggle, a popular refuge for those seeking a justification for following Roe v. Wade. I have not heard it mentioned in recent years. There was a time when the position was supposedly reinforced by claiming the unborn child to be “an unjust aggressor,” giving the mother a claim to self-defense.

Those holding this position should be asked for their definition of “Parasite.” They should be reminded that the term refers to a condition of symbiosis, where there are two organisms, the life of at least one of them being dependant on the other. Some symbiotic relationships are mutually advantageous, as in the case of the lichens, a community of algae and fungi. In others, one of the organisms may live to the detriment of the other. Mistletoe, and the tree to which it fastens itself, would be an example of the latter: a certain amount of mistletoe will kill the tree. Is this what is implied in the position you have mentioned – the child is like the mistletoe and the mother is like the tree?

It would be helpful at this point of the discussion to deny the claim that “the child is living off the mother.” After conception, the mother merely supplies nutrients, liquids and oxygen, all of which come from outside of herself. She supplies warmth for her child, and carries away her child’s waste. And, yes, add at least a minimum of mother&#39;s love. The body of the mother is not being consumed by the child. The child is not “living off” the mother. This is simple Embryology.

Or is the position you mentioned using “parasite” only by way of analogy – that there are some maternal sacrifices involved in child-bearing?” No one should deny that there are sacrifices of one’s ordinary lifestyle because of motherhood. That’s why parenthood is a prime example of love for neighbor. And it is why the annual day of national gratitude, called Mother’s Day, is celebrated.

So, the position is without merit. It is difficult to see how anything as natural as human reproduction could be antagonistic within itself, as though the child were in competition with the mother. In the natural course of events, as evidenced in the majority, motherhood is beneficial to a woman, both physically and emotionally.

It would be especially difficult to see, in cases where pregnancy had been willingly entered into, that a woman could look upon her unborn baby as a parasite. Even under the circumstances of rape and incest, the child is not an intruder; The child’s father is the intruder, and he, not the child, should be held accountable.

Your question points up the complex area of interpersonal relationships. The “cliché” or “sound bite” needs careful study before it can be accepted as a solution to social problems. The problem of your concern indicates the need for establishing biological facts, and for applying ethical and social principles, as we have suggested here, to lay to rest the ragged excuse of the unborn child as an aggressor.


http://unbornperson.com/Displayed%20Respon...ry%2010,%202005
 

Lex

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I fully respect your argument and your beliefs, Dilznick.

Agreeing with the parasite, women&#39;s right, privacy issues notiwithstanding--those are the issues that will have to be deconstructed to change anything. That is all I am saying.

The "screw" that secured legalized abortion was a flathead screw and required a flathead screwdriver. If anyone wants to unscrew it, they can fully expect to NOT be successful by using a phillips-head screwdriver.
 

GottaBigOne

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Dilznick, I would contend that the child acts like an antagonistic parasite when the mother doesn&#39;t want it. It acts like the mutually beneficial parasite when the mother does. It all about the mother&#39;s choice. Just because somethings natural doesn&#39;t mean its necessarily healthy or good. Death is natural and it is not healthy, its actually the result of no health, and it isn&#39;t really that good.
 

jonb

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Actually, everyone with any astronomical knowledge -- on either side of the Atlantic -- knew the world was round even before the common era.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by Lex
I fully respect your argument and your beliefs, Dilznick.

Agreeing with the parasite, women&#39;s right, privacy issues notiwithstanding--those are the issues that will have to be deconstructed to change anything. That is all I am saying.

The "screw" that secured legalized abortion was a flathead screw and required a flathead screwdriver. If anyone wants to unscrew it, they can fully expect to NOT be successful by using a phillips-head screwdriver.
My primary concern is that the Supreme Court justice nomination will adhere to strict "originalist" interpretations of the constitution. And if they will then the death of Roe will flow from that. ;-)
 

lacsap1

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It&#39;s weird,

When I was young (+/- 15 years ago) we thought that America was modern, smart and being inventing new things. The land of freedom. From paperboy to millionaire and everything is possible and always going forward. We the Netherlands also wanted to be modern, smart and liberal. Getting better and proud on our nation and always wanting to go forward.

Ties days we think, America is like 25 years ago. So now it&#39;s not modern, not smart and not inventing new things. Now it the land of conservatives and nothing is possible anymore. Instead forward it&#39;s going backward.

The discussions about legalized abortion, legalized gay marriage, legalized soft drugs, legalized euthanasia. We did it several years ago and this has all been legalized already in the Netherlands. Why, because every time something important or controversial can change our country we kept the discussion only on the facts and with clear continence. This mean, there is no room for personal religious believes in important discussions. So please stop always fall back on ties religious arguments in important legalizing issues. It doesn&#39;t help society nor the law and the country will never be an real open and democratic country.
It keeps you backward and improves more civil unrest then good.

Religion is something private and must not interfere with making law.
If you&#39;re catholic and don&#39;t want abortion then don&#39;t do it, but on the other hand, don&#39;t judge somebody who is pro. It&#39;s the family and/or lady decision and nobody else. Same for the euthanasia, if a (normally older) person says its enough, it&#39;s enough and nobody&#39;s else can force someone to life any longer. Gay marriage something, why want religious people take someone else happiness away?
If people are not able to have an fair and open discussion without a backward attitude then they not the right party to speak about important things.

This also IS respect for life, it&#39;s respect for someone very difficult private decision.
 
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Originally posted by lacsap1@Oct 29 2005, 02:05 PM
It&#39;s weird,

Ties days we think, America is like 25 years ago. So now it&#39;s not modern, not smart and not inventing new things. Now it the land of conservatives and nothing is possible anymore. Instead forward it&#39;s going backward.

[post=356549]Quoted post[/post]​


Smart ass from Holland
 

robertomuro

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Originally posted by lacsap1@Oct 29 2005, 09:05 PM
It&#39;s weird,

When I was young (+/- 15 years ago) we thought that America was modern, smart and being inventing new things. The land of freedom. From paperboy to millionaire and everything is possible and always going forward. We the Netherlands also wanted to be modern, smart and liberal. Getting better and proud on our nation and always wanting to go forward.

Ties days we think, America is like 25 years ago. So now it&#39;s not modern, not smart and not inventing new things. Now it the land of conservatives and nothing is possible anymore. Instead forward it&#39;s going backward.

The discussions about legalized abortion, legalized gay marriage, legalized soft drugs, legalized euthanasia. We did it several years ago and this has all been legalized already in the Netherlands. Why, because every time something important or controversial can change our country we kept the discussion only on the facts and with clear continence. This mean, there is no room for personal religious believes in important discussions. So please stop always fall back on ties religious arguments in important legalizing issues. It doesn&#39;t help society nor the law and the country will never be an real open and democratic country.
It keeps you backward and improves more civil unrest then good.

Religion is something private and must not interfere with making law.
If you&#39;re catholic and don&#39;t want abortion then don&#39;t do it, but on the other hand, don&#39;t judge somebody who is pro. It&#39;s the family and/or lady decision and nobody else. Same for the euthanasia, if a (normally older) person says its enough, it&#39;s enough and nobody&#39;s else can force someone to life any longer. Gay marriage something, why want religious people take someone else happiness away?
If people are not able to have an fair and open discussion without a backward attitude then they not the right party to speak about important things.

This also IS respect for life, it&#39;s respect for someone very difficult private decision.
[post=356549]Quoted post[/post]​

I do agree with you on euthanasia, gay unions (for me marriage means in a religious context so I prefer union) etc.. as yes, it is their bodies or choices and does not interfere with other peoples living. However, abortion for me is different as the baby is a human which is being killed because of the choice of another and for this I can not agree. The only exception I would make is if it is between the life of the mother or baby.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by lacsap1
Religion is something private and must not interfere with making law.
If you&#39;re catholic and don&#39;t want abortion then don&#39;t do it, but on the other hand, don&#39;t judge somebody who is pro.
Abortion is a moral issue, not explicitly a religious one. You can not be religious and still be against abortion. They often say a society is judged by how it protects its most vulnerable citizens. Abortion is legal so where&#39;s the beef, that we aren&#39;t drowning baby girls in the Yangtze? Please excuse our pluralistic society if opposition to perceived asinine laws organize to oppose savagery as they see it. It hasn&#39;t served us well in the past.
 

lacsap1

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Originally posted by robertomuro@Oct 30 2005, 04:23 PM
I do agree with you on euthanasia, gay unions (for me marriage means in a religious context so I prefer union) etc.. as yes, it is their bodies or choices and does not interfere with other peoples living. However, abortion for me is different as the baby is a human which is being killed because of the choice of another and for this I can not agree. The only exception I would make is if it is between the life of the mother or baby.
[post=356798]Quoted post[/post]​

Okay, I understand your point.

Dutch legal professionals are pragmatic, cost-conscious, and result-oriented and we also needed a good laws. So, first determ when "the baby is a human being".
I know it sounds very technocratic and cold but remember we need a workable result. Also don&#39;t forget other impute like, every year, about 78,000 women die from unsafe and illegal abortions. For every death caused by unsafe abortion, several women are injured or left infertile. And countless unwanted children are born to women unable to obtain an abortion. Many of these kids will live a life marred by poverty, abuse, and neglect. Many women who suffer complications from unsafe, illegal abortion are afraid to come in for medical treatment, so they suffer or die without ever being counted as an abortion statistic. When they do make it to hospital, they take up to two-thirds of the maternity beds, and up to 50% of the hospital&#39;s maternity budget. Obviously, this seriously compromises other maternity and emergency services.

Okay, back to the term "baby".

Dutch abortion legislation, which permits freely abortion until a fetus is viable outside the womb, normally between 21 and 22 weeks. This is currently being reevaluated due to disagreement about the gestational age at which fetal viability occurs. According to medical technology in our country, fetal viability is possible at 24 weeks, but in practice some fetuses have survived at 22 weeks.
Now we argued that fetal viability should not be used as a criterion since it depends on advances in medical technology and we proposing instead that abortions be permitted until a fetus begins to think, this will be around the 30st week. Our term of human being, fetus and/or baby is when some one can think and has some cognitive activity. In order to place an security the abortion will be permitted until the 25 week in case this "become" human being will be smarter and quier then the standard.

So now abortion is freely available on demand in the Netherlands, we boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, about 5.5 abortions per 1000 women per year, and the complication and death rates for abortion are miniscule. How? Because contraception is widely available and free (it&#39;s covered by the national health insurance plan) and we carries out extensive public education on contraception, family planning, and sexuality. An ethic of personal responsibility for one&#39;s sexual activity is strongly promoted. Of course, some people say that teaching kids about sex and contraception will only encourage them to have lots of sex. But Dutch teenagers tend to have less frequent sex, starting at an older age, than American teenagers, and the Dutch teenage pregnancy rate is 9 times lower than in the U.S.

Abortion is a critical backstop to contraception, which is not 100% effective. And people do make mistakes, they sometimes forget to use their contraception, or they use it wrong. Motherhood should never be a punishment for human error.
 

D_Barbi_Queue

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Originally posted by lacsap1@Oct 30 2005, 03:27 PM
Abortion is a critical backstop to contraception, which is not 100% effective. And people do make mistakes, they sometimes forget to use their contraception, or they use it wrong. Motherhood should never be a punishment for human error.
[post=356833]Quoted post[/post]​

Abstinance is 100%. If you aren&#39;t prepared to live with the possible consequences of sex, then avoid it.
 

GottaBigOne

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Originally posted by robertomuro+Oct 30 2005, 04:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(robertomuro &#064; Oct 30 2005, 04:23 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-lacsap1@Oct 29 2005, 09:05 PM
It&#39;s weird,

When I was young (+/- 15 years ago) we thought that America was modern, smart and being inventing new things. The land of freedom. From paperboy to millionaire and everything is possible and always going forward. We the Netherlands also wanted to be modern, smart and liberal. Getting better and proud on our nation and always wanting to go forward.

Ties days we think, America is like 25 years ago. So now it&#39;s not modern, not smart and not inventing new things. Now it the land of conservatives and nothing is possible anymore. Instead forward it&#39;s going backward.

The discussions about legalized abortion, legalized gay marriage, legalized soft drugs, legalized euthanasia. We did it several years ago and this has all been legalized already in the Netherlands. Why, because every time something important or controversial can change our country we kept the discussion only on the facts and with clear continence. This mean, there is no room for personal religious believes in important discussions. So please stop always fall back on ties religious arguments in important legalizing issues. It doesn&#39;t help society nor the law and the country will never be an real open and democratic country.
It keeps you backward and improves more civil unrest then good.

Religion is something private and must not interfere with making law.
If you&#39;re catholic and don&#39;t want abortion then don&#39;t do it, but on the other hand, don&#39;t judge somebody who is pro. It&#39;s the family and/or lady decision and nobody else. Same for the euthanasia, if a (normally older) person says its enough, it&#39;s enough and nobody&#39;s else can force someone to life any longer. Gay marriage something, why want religious people take someone else happiness away?
If people are not able to have an fair and open discussion without a backward attitude then they not the right party to speak about important things.

This also IS respect for life, it&#39;s respect for someone very difficult private decision.
[post=356549]Quoted post[/post]​

I do agree with you on euthanasia, gay unions (for me marriage means in a religious context so I prefer union) etc.. as yes, it is their bodies or choices and does not interfere with other peoples living. However, abortion for me is different as the baby is a human which is being killed because of the choice of another and for this I can not agree. The only exception I would make is if it is between the life of the mother or baby.
[post=356798]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
The fetus, even if we grant that it i a human is not being killed, it is simply being denied sustanance and allowed to die of natural causes. Unless of course it is aborted in the third trimester which then it has to be forceably killed after being partially delivered.
 

lacsap1

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Originally posted by TexAssgirl@Oct 31 2005, 12:53 AM
Abstinance is 100%. If you aren&#39;t prepared to live with the possible consequences of sex, then avoid it.
[post=356907]Quoted post[/post]​

And ties kind of statements (or believes) don&#39;t help the discussion. :shrug:
Some females get unwanted or accidentally pregnant so more support and help should be provided. Ofcouse ethics of personal responsibility for ones sexual activity is important but a modern society most provide a safety net for people in case some one can&#39;t or wants to bring a child to this world for any kind of sincere reason. If a "mother" wants an abortion, I think this world, our society, you, me, everybody and ofcourse the mother and the baby are far better off by stopping the pregnancy. There are already to many unwanted and unhappy people in this world.
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by lacsap1+Oct 30 2005, 02:27 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lacsap1 &#064; Oct 30 2005, 02:27 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-robertomuro@Oct 30 2005, 04:23 PM
I
[post=356798]Quoted post[/post]​

Okay, I understand your point.

Dutch legal professionals are pragmatic, cost-conscious, and result-oriented and we also needed a good laws. So, first determ when "the baby is a human being".
I know it sounds very technocratic and cold but remember we need a workable result. Also don&#39;t forget other impute like, every year, about 78,000 women die from unsafe and illegal abortions. For every death caused by unsafe abortion, several women are injured or left infertile. And countless unwanted children are born to women unable to obtain an abortion. Many of these kids will live a life marred by poverty, abuse, and neglect. Many women who suffer complications from unsafe, illegal abortion are afraid to come in for medical treatment, so they suffer or die without ever being counted as an abortion statistic. When they do make it to hospital, they take up to two-thirds of the maternity beds, and up to 50% of the hospital&#39;s maternity budget. Obviously, this seriously compromises other maternity and emergency services.

Okay, back to the term "baby".

Dutch abortion legislation, which permits freely abortion until a fetus is viable outside the womb, normally between 21 and 22 weeks. This is currently being reevaluated due to disagreement about the gestational age at which fetal viability occurs. According to medical technology in our country, fetal viability is possible at 24 weeks, but in practice some fetuses have survived at 22 weeks.
Now we argued that fetal viability should not be used as a criterion since it depends on advances in medical technology and we proposing instead that abortions be permitted until a fetus begins to think, this will be around the 30st week. Our term of human being, fetus and/or baby is when some one can think and has some cognitive activity. In order to place an security the abortion will be permitted until the 25 week in case this "become" human being will be smarter and quier then the standard.

So now abortion is freely available on demand in the Netherlands, we boasts the lowest abortion rate in the world, about 5.5 abortions per 1000 women per year, and the complication and death rates for abortion are miniscule. How? Because contraception is widely available and free (it&#39;s covered by the national health insurance plan) and we carries out extensive public education on contraception, family planning, and sexuality. An ethic of personal responsibility for one&#39;s sexual activity is strongly promoted. Of course, some people say that teaching kids about sex and contraception will only encourage them to have lots of sex. But Dutch teenagers tend to have less frequent sex, starting at an older age, than American teenagers, and the Dutch teenage pregnancy rate is 9 times lower than in the U.S.

Abortion is a critical backstop to contraception, which is not 100% effective. And people do make mistakes, they sometimes forget to use their contraception, or they use it wrong. Motherhood should never be a punishment for human error.
[post=356833]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
These ideas won&#39;t work in America, they make sense&#33;

I really liked the idea of using when a baby is able to think which is the 30th week. That also corresponds to the religous idea of a soul. If religious people would use the time when a fetus starts to think as also the time it gets a soul from God instead of conception, then this whole issue would be solved.

Nah, too easy and makes too much sense. Besides we need something for the political parties to disagree on.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by lacsap1+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lacsap1)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-TexAssgirl
Abstinance is 100%. If you aren&#39;t prepared to live with the possible consequences of sex, then avoid it.
And ties kind of statements (or believes) don&#39;t help the discussion. :shrug: [/b][/quote]
Why, because you disagree with her? Again, who forced them? Their dicks, their vaginas, they used them.

By the way, I didn&#39;t know rights were dependent upon societies/technology&#39;s ability to deliver them. I thought they were, by nature, inherent. Your view of morality and the nature of human rights is being dictated by technology and whether or not it can accommodate your derivative moral code.


Some females get unwanted or accidentally pregnant so more support and help should be provided. Ofcouse ethics of personal responsibility for ones sexual activity is important but a modern society most provide a safety net for people in case some one can&#39;t or wants to bring a child to this world for any kind of sincere reason. If a "mother" wants an abortion, I think this world, our society, you, me, everybody and ofcourse the mother and the baby are far better off by stopping the pregnancy. There are already to many unwanted and unhappy people in this world.
If this were true you would expect the suicide rate amongst children who are born via an accident to an unwed single, unprepared mother to be astronomical, and they just aren&#39;t. That&#39;s because most people, even in bad situations, recognize the value of their lives.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by Freddie53

These ideas won&#39;t work in America, they make sense&#33;

I really liked the idea of using when a baby is able to think which is the 30th week. That also corresponds to the religous idea of a soul. If religious people would use the time when a fetus starts to think as also the time it gets a soul from God instead of conception, then this whole issue would be solved.

Nah, too easy and makes too much sense. Besides we need something for the political parties to disagree on.

Please stop with all the wimpy lib-speak. Thanks.
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick+Nov 1 2005, 03:10 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr. Dilznick &#064; Nov 1 2005, 03:10 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53

These ideas won&#39;t work in America, they make sense&#33;

I really liked the idea of using when a baby is able to think which is the 30th week. That also corresponds to the religous idea of a soul. If religious people would use the time when a fetus starts to think as also the time it gets a soul from God instead of conception, then this whole issue would be solved.

Nah, too easy and makes too much sense. Besides we need something for the political parties to disagree on.

Please stop with all the wimpy lib-speak. Thanks.
[post=357297]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
Now just exactly is wimpy lib-speak. Please define it for me.

And are you my new daddy who tells me what I can talk about and how I should talk. I hope so. Can&#39;t wait to start getting those child support payments in the mail. Me and the wife will have a grand time with the extra cash to send me to school to learn how to be more wimpy-lib just to bug dear old dad.
 

Dr. Dilznick

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Originally posted by Freddie53
And are you my new daddy who tells me what I can talk about and how I should talk. I hope so. Can&#39;t wait to start getting those child support payments in the mail. Me and the wife will have a grand time with the extra cash to send me to school to learn how to be more wimpy-lib just to bug dear old dad.
Maybe that scrawl passes for razor sharp wit at JesusFreak.com but you gonna have to step your game up to trade barbs with the King of Cuddling, cunt.
 

Freddie53

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Originally posted by Dr. Dilznick+Nov 1 2005, 08:26 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dr. Dilznick &#064; Nov 1 2005, 08:26 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Freddie53
And are you my new daddy who tells me what I can talk about and how I should talk. I hope so. Can&#39;t wait to start getting those child support payments in the mail. Me and the wife will have a grand time with the extra cash to send me to school to learn how to be more wimpy-lib just to bug dear old dad.
Maybe that scrawl passes for razor sharp wit at JesusFreak.com but you gonna have to step your game up to trade barbs with the King of Cuddling, cunt.
[post=357337]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]
First who in the hell gave you the authority to tell me what to write? Who made you god on this forum.
Second. I have no desire to step up the game to your low level of being the King of Cuddling, cunt. your words. You had no probem calling me Jesus Freak.

That is fine. I dont&#39; give a rat&#39;s ass what you think about me. If you were in the gutter and needed help, I would still help you. I do have character.

I don&#39;t think you will succeed in shutting me up. I will continue posting when I get good and ready and say what I damn well please.