Abu Ghraib
- Thread starter jay_too
- Start date
Most non-Americans will probably be completely unsurprised, and "team evil" know this one as a 100% fact for decades.
Javierdude22:
Mindseye, the Bush administration has an eye for finding two ways to deal with certain things, choosing whatever side when it convenes them. In a direct converstaion I would ask Bush to release Guantanamo pictures then. He should have no trouble handing those over since the Geneva Conventions don't seem to apply to them.
It's a shockfactor I have perhaps...the little kid that shouldn't watch horrormovies because of nightmares...yet does it anyway. Like the little kid, I regretted wathcing it afterwards. It could also be me not really grasping the terror involved in all this...now I do.
Mindseye, the Bush administration has an eye for finding two ways to deal with certain things, choosing whatever side when it convenes them. In a direct converstaion I would ask Bush to release Guantanamo pictures then. He should have no trouble handing those over since the Geneva Conventions don't seem to apply to them.
- jonb,
Interesting. Didn't the White House just last week cite the Geneva Convention as the reason for suppressing the additional photographs from Abu Ghraib? [/b][/quote]
It's called a kettle defense, mindseye. If I borrowed a kettle from you and broke it, followed by your suing me, and I delivered three contradictory defenses: I did not borrow the kettle, I returned it in perfect condition, and it was like that when I broke it.
The abuse scandal gets stickier; we may see if military justice can stand up to scrutiny. A soldier who has been court martialed for desertion is claiming that one factor in his decision not to return to Iraq was because of the instruction/order to abuse prisoners.
When the tribunal refused his request to bring members of his unit to Ft. Stewart, a former Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, pointed out to the press that his client was fulfilling his duty under international law to NOT obey an unlawful order and participate in a war crime. Yea, it is gonna get worse before it gets better; but that is what our system is all about.
Check out:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...eadlines-nation
jay
When the tribunal refused his request to bring members of his unit to Ft. Stewart, a former Attorney General, Ramsey Clark, pointed out to the press that his client was fulfilling his duty under international law to NOT obey an unlawful order and participate in a war crime. Yea, it is gonna get worse before it gets better; but that is what our system is all about.
Check out:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...eadlines-nation
jay
Javierdude22: Btw...is it just me or do the latest pictures look really weird. What numbskull is gonna pose on a picture sticking his/her thumb up at the body of a tortured to death inmate?
Dont they ask a certain intelligence level when entering the army?...looks like these were ill the day the tests were taken if the pics are real...
Dont they ask a certain intelligence level when entering the army?...looks like these were ill the day the tests were taken if the pics are real...
Javierdude22: Pecker,
Although I obviously agree with yoy on the Nick Berg execution being horrible, it cannot be that what happened there justifies any other actions done by the American soldiers towards Iraqis.
I will bet the tortured to death man on the picture with the girl sticking her thumb up came to his en d in a similar way as Nicholas Berg...no wait, he was tortured before that.
Although I obviously agree with yoy on the Nick Berg execution being horrible, it cannot be that what happened there justifies any other actions done by the American soldiers towards Iraqis.
I will bet the tortured to death man on the picture with the girl sticking her thumb up came to his en d in a similar way as Nicholas Berg...no wait, he was tortured before that.
A couple of Senators reassured America this week in Hearings that the abuse was the result of locker room actions by low level soldiers AND that this was not a case of fish-rot beginning at the head.
Slate, May 21, 2004 reports: "As a Pentagon official in the 1980s, Feith had laid out the argument that terrorists didn't deserve protection under the Geneva Conventions. Once the war on terrorism started, all he had to do was implement it. And even more damning than his legal rule-making is Feith's reported reaction to complaints by military Judge Advocate General lawyers about the new, looser interrogation rules. "They said he had a dismissive, if not derisive, attitude toward the Geneva Conventions," Scott Horton, a lawyer who was approached by six outraged JAG officers last year, told the Chicago Tribune. "One of them said he calls it 'law in the service of terror.' "
This is the guy that Gen. Tommy Franks in Bob Woodward's Plan of Attack calls "the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth." Franks may have gotten that right because Feith is responsible for the post war planning of Iraq. errrr....what planning?
I know that Feith cannot be court martialed. Perhaps, the Bush administration will show their comittment to the rule of law and righting an obvious wrong to the people of Iraq by trying Feith as a war crimminal for his contribution to a system of prisoner abuse.
jay
Slate, May 21, 2004 reports: "As a Pentagon official in the 1980s, Feith had laid out the argument that terrorists didn't deserve protection under the Geneva Conventions. Once the war on terrorism started, all he had to do was implement it. And even more damning than his legal rule-making is Feith's reported reaction to complaints by military Judge Advocate General lawyers about the new, looser interrogation rules. "They said he had a dismissive, if not derisive, attitude toward the Geneva Conventions," Scott Horton, a lawyer who was approached by six outraged JAG officers last year, told the Chicago Tribune. "One of them said he calls it 'law in the service of terror.' "
This is the guy that Gen. Tommy Franks in Bob Woodward's Plan of Attack calls "the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth." Franks may have gotten that right because Feith is responsible for the post war planning of Iraq. errrr....what planning?
I know that Feith cannot be court martialed. Perhaps, the Bush administration will show their comittment to the rule of law and righting an obvious wrong to the people of Iraq by trying Feith as a war crimminal for his contribution to a system of prisoner abuse.
jay
Tender:
Forgive me if I've misunderstood here,
but,
what happens if the shit just so happens to happen to you?
then does the 'shit happens' philosophy suddenly seem a little 'personal'?
As far as the beheading, I agree it was horrible.
BUT, I do not see the US as having any reason to whine over it being shown by the media, anywhere.
Havent we shown plenty of HUMILIATING pics of 'them'?
Seems pretty 2faced if you ask me.
His family is lucky in one sense that at least they know what happened to him.
As far as media putting the video out for public to see, I think in one sense that is a bad idea. OTHO, more people might need a taste of it. I think too many people have the idea of 'shit happens', and well, when you see that 'shit' happening to real people in real color, and having real emotions and real impact--maybe they wouldnt take so many things for granted...looking the other way.
Whoever did that, is just as guilty as our own guys are for what they did.
No one in the Bush house has yet to satisfy my question as to why it went on for so long, or nothing was done about it? OH, we didnt KNOW.
h34r:
SUuUure....
Tender
Forgive me if I've misunderstood here,
but,
what happens if the shit just so happens to happen to you?
then does the 'shit happens' philosophy suddenly seem a little 'personal'?
As far as the beheading, I agree it was horrible.
BUT, I do not see the US as having any reason to whine over it being shown by the media, anywhere.
Havent we shown plenty of HUMILIATING pics of 'them'?
Seems pretty 2faced if you ask me.
His family is lucky in one sense that at least they know what happened to him.
As far as media putting the video out for public to see, I think in one sense that is a bad idea. OTHO, more people might need a taste of it. I think too many people have the idea of 'shit happens', and well, when you see that 'shit' happening to real people in real color, and having real emotions and real impact--maybe they wouldnt take so many things for granted...looking the other way.
Whoever did that, is just as guilty as our own guys are for what they did.
No one in the Bush house has yet to satisfy my question as to why it went on for so long, or nothing was done about it? OH, we didnt KNOW.
h34r: SUuUure....
Tender
I've "come of age" recently Tender, and frankly, if I was being tortured as badly as those Iraqi prisoners, then I think I'd resign myself to never leaving the jail alive.
What I'm saying is that this stuff is old news, Guantamo bay, Vietnam, WW2... we like to feel comfort that our soldiers are fighting clean wars and doing the world a better thing, in the US, I'm surprised at how indoctrined it is in your culture, I can't go to my favourite sites without being fed the "army of one" motto daily.
Yet war is sickening, bloody and disgusting.
As a point, say I asked you to torture someone sexually and violently, could you do it? If I was your senior officer and ordered you, would you do it?
No. But if they were your enemy, would you do it? How far would you go before you wouldn't hurt them? After they'd kill your family, your friends?
The soldiers were hurting people that were literally off the street, the state of mind to be able to dehumanise someone because "they were told to", is probably the same and greater than our worst serial murderers, at least they have a motive, rather than cold duty.
So... back to the point, I believe most of the bitching is because they were caught at it, after all, if they obey orders that well, they must be excellent soliders, I would expect loyalty to command to earn them a few medals at least.
And also, so, if this is going on, what can the average Orcabomber do about it?
Absolutely fuck all, which is why I don't.
It's gross saying this, but I'm comfortable where I am, and if people really do feel that they can make a difference, then perhaps they should question why their soldiers are in the country in the first place, rather than moan daily about the consequences.
"Give a man a rod and he'll never go hungry.
Give a man a gun and you better watch your back."
Because if there's one thing that I've come to realise in the last couple of years, is the value of self-worth and the worth of other people, and frankly, my life is not worth theirs. One man does not make a difference, and anyone who still believes that, in my opinion, belongs back in the '60s.
The moral of the story, is..once again. Shit happens.
What I'm saying is that this stuff is old news, Guantamo bay, Vietnam, WW2... we like to feel comfort that our soldiers are fighting clean wars and doing the world a better thing, in the US, I'm surprised at how indoctrined it is in your culture, I can't go to my favourite sites without being fed the "army of one" motto daily.
Yet war is sickening, bloody and disgusting.
As a point, say I asked you to torture someone sexually and violently, could you do it? If I was your senior officer and ordered you, would you do it?
No. But if they were your enemy, would you do it? How far would you go before you wouldn't hurt them? After they'd kill your family, your friends?
The soldiers were hurting people that were literally off the street, the state of mind to be able to dehumanise someone because "they were told to", is probably the same and greater than our worst serial murderers, at least they have a motive, rather than cold duty.
So... back to the point, I believe most of the bitching is because they were caught at it, after all, if they obey orders that well, they must be excellent soliders, I would expect loyalty to command to earn them a few medals at least.
And also, so, if this is going on, what can the average Orcabomber do about it?
Absolutely fuck all, which is why I don't.
It's gross saying this, but I'm comfortable where I am, and if people really do feel that they can make a difference, then perhaps they should question why their soldiers are in the country in the first place, rather than moan daily about the consequences.
"Give a man a rod and he'll never go hungry.
Give a man a gun and you better watch your back."
Because if there's one thing that I've come to realise in the last couple of years, is the value of self-worth and the worth of other people, and frankly, my life is not worth theirs. One man does not make a difference, and anyone who still believes that, in my opinion, belongs back in the '60s.
The moral of the story, is..once again. Shit happens.
Tender:
what do you mean ONE person cannot make any difference??
did you know that a pond is filled one drop at a time?
that the population grows one baby at a time?
that the beach is made up of one grain of sand at a time?
well, it just so happens that every soldier in our military is ONE. and those ONES add up to thousands. We would not have thousands if it were not for each ONE.
As far as ONE making a difference, overall, I understand full well what you are saying. The whole things is monumentous, and impossible at that. I still have yet to even figure out the POINT of this war, overall, and certainly dont know what the GOAL is. I certainly feel as though average 'me' is unable to make any difference. Pretty discouraging.
Yes this abuse and such is NOTHING new. And certainly anyone who belevies that our military is 'above' such, has their head in the sand. But, that in no way excuses it, and anyone who was caught 'obeying' such horrid orders, should be punished, along with anyone who gave them.
I agree as well that torture is not in the human nature. It is learned and taught. Well, that gives us a pretty good picture of the state of our military> Not just the military I'm afraid, but anymore average kids off the street are just as nasty. Which I credit our 'entertainment' industry for that. That, and the fact that too many kids are being raised 'moral-less' and raising themselves at that, while their parents are out chasing money and other people's spouses...
Oh, dear, I'm off on a tangent.
My point being, yes it happens, but it's still just as wrong today as it has always been, and always will be. And the excuses don't count. At what point does 'following orders' become an excuse for doing what a soldier knows isn't right? Oh, the devil made me do it! lol!
I think that will be a point considered in the overall picture. I mean, can a soldier use that as an excuse after he is 'found out'? It says to me that he is weak. Too weak to put his own neck on the line for what is right, whether the other person deserves it or not.
As far as I'm concerned the worth of one person over another is not the point. Certainly I have the right to defend myself, killing another person if necesary. But, where does that make humiliation ok? Sure, I wouldn't sacrifice myself for an enemy. But, were any of those tortured, given a trial, and even PROVEN to BE the enemy? I'd bet my booties that a large number are imprisoned just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, if YOU were caught by the enemy, you would just tell yourself 'shit happens' when you are humiliated and tortured, even without them knowing you are guility of anything personally? Just because someone lives in Iraq doesnt mean they hate you. Doesnt mean they 'bombed' us. Because you know full well, that just because a person lives in the US, doesnt mean they agree with this war.
Tender
OH> I CanNOT believe you said THAT!
what do you mean ONE person cannot make any difference??
did you know that a pond is filled one drop at a time?
that the population grows one baby at a time?
that the beach is made up of one grain of sand at a time?
well, it just so happens that every soldier in our military is ONE. and those ONES add up to thousands. We would not have thousands if it were not for each ONE.
As far as ONE making a difference, overall, I understand full well what you are saying. The whole things is monumentous, and impossible at that. I still have yet to even figure out the POINT of this war, overall, and certainly dont know what the GOAL is. I certainly feel as though average 'me' is unable to make any difference. Pretty discouraging.
Yes this abuse and such is NOTHING new. And certainly anyone who belevies that our military is 'above' such, has their head in the sand. But, that in no way excuses it, and anyone who was caught 'obeying' such horrid orders, should be punished, along with anyone who gave them.
I agree as well that torture is not in the human nature. It is learned and taught. Well, that gives us a pretty good picture of the state of our military> Not just the military I'm afraid, but anymore average kids off the street are just as nasty. Which I credit our 'entertainment' industry for that. That, and the fact that too many kids are being raised 'moral-less' and raising themselves at that, while their parents are out chasing money and other people's spouses...
Oh, dear, I'm off on a tangent.
My point being, yes it happens, but it's still just as wrong today as it has always been, and always will be. And the excuses don't count. At what point does 'following orders' become an excuse for doing what a soldier knows isn't right? Oh, the devil made me do it! lol!
I think that will be a point considered in the overall picture. I mean, can a soldier use that as an excuse after he is 'found out'? It says to me that he is weak. Too weak to put his own neck on the line for what is right, whether the other person deserves it or not.
As far as I'm concerned the worth of one person over another is not the point. Certainly I have the right to defend myself, killing another person if necesary. But, where does that make humiliation ok? Sure, I wouldn't sacrifice myself for an enemy. But, were any of those tortured, given a trial, and even PROVEN to BE the enemy? I'd bet my booties that a large number are imprisoned just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, if YOU were caught by the enemy, you would just tell yourself 'shit happens' when you are humiliated and tortured, even without them knowing you are guility of anything personally? Just because someone lives in Iraq doesnt mean they hate you. Doesnt mean they 'bombed' us. Because you know full well, that just because a person lives in the US, doesnt mean they agree with this war.
Tender
Tender, I'm sorry if I'm causing you great offence, I really am.
Oddly enough I dunno why we're arguing, we are on the same side as far as the matter goes. I just feel that 'apathy' and 'contempt' are my political manifestos.
As far as my attitude towards the Iraqi people go, I do actually know an Iraqi online, and I have an inordinate number of Muslim 'comrades,' I'm not in the line of thought that they deserve to be put into positions that prisoners in western countries would find deplorable. I'm probably smarter than a lot of people in that I try to be incapable of hatred of people I don't already know.
The suffering that these people go through etc, etc, in all places around the world is pretty bad, and if the photos convince some people that things aren't what they seem in the US, then that's probably a fair enough goal, but it only justifies the prejudices that the rest of the world have against Americans in general.
This is probably especially in the case that the Coalition is fighting a moral war in the hope of actually liberating the Iraqi people from themselves.
And I DO think that being ordered is an excuse, the very act of fighting against civilians means that soldiers will kill people's wives husbands and children, I'm not evil enough to consider people as "collateral damage", that's disgusting, but somehow, these people are not going to refuse orders in mass.
After all, if I was in the army, if I was ordered to walk into the very fires of hell, my only response should be "which way?" It's the way the millitary is controlled, through force and discipline, I doubt any soldiers or vets on the board would disagree.
So maybe the people who are dishing the orders should be the ones taking the stick, but somehow, I doubt it.
After all, there were the bombings etc and civil areas were valid targets.
Tender, I do agree that people do have the right to defend themselves, but considering that Iraq has gun laws similar to America, well, look how hard it is to disarm the USA, and consider Iraq has explosive weaponry to boot, some people will get busted, or killed just defending their homes and land, and indeed, most prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan probably were terribly unlucky.
But lets put it this way, as mentioned, if I was stupid enough to visit either of those countries, I would not expect to leave alive, after all, what would I do? There are some general hard-core terrorists probably mixed up in all this and one puny civvie like myself would only be another bag of flesh for consumption. Heck, cyanide tablets should be handed out to visitors.
At the end of the day, I'm only illiterating my views, but with a hint of inevitability of it, frankly, I am studying to be a scientist and I do not want to endanger my career by trying to go "commando" against the Coalition, it might have made the prisoners under the Patriot act and the Anti-terror acts more comfortable morally, but resistance is futile and frankly, I have no wish to visit Cuba. The fools, they want to make a difference, how about they just pop themselves and save someone else the trouble.
And at the end of the day, shit happens. They can and will sort this thing out, the governments that you voted in will act in what ever way they see fit. Somehow, I doubt they'll tremor in fear because Tender and Orcabomber are miffed at what they would call "illegal combatants".
Well, there's always Russia, France, China, Cuba, North Korea, Sudan... I'm expecting one of those might be hit next, and the pattern continues...
Oddly enough I dunno why we're arguing, we are on the same side as far as the matter goes. I just feel that 'apathy' and 'contempt' are my political manifestos.
As far as my attitude towards the Iraqi people go, I do actually know an Iraqi online, and I have an inordinate number of Muslim 'comrades,' I'm not in the line of thought that they deserve to be put into positions that prisoners in western countries would find deplorable. I'm probably smarter than a lot of people in that I try to be incapable of hatred of people I don't already know.
The suffering that these people go through etc, etc, in all places around the world is pretty bad, and if the photos convince some people that things aren't what they seem in the US, then that's probably a fair enough goal, but it only justifies the prejudices that the rest of the world have against Americans in general.
This is probably especially in the case that the Coalition is fighting a moral war in the hope of actually liberating the Iraqi people from themselves.
And I DO think that being ordered is an excuse, the very act of fighting against civilians means that soldiers will kill people's wives husbands and children, I'm not evil enough to consider people as "collateral damage", that's disgusting, but somehow, these people are not going to refuse orders in mass.
After all, if I was in the army, if I was ordered to walk into the very fires of hell, my only response should be "which way?" It's the way the millitary is controlled, through force and discipline, I doubt any soldiers or vets on the board would disagree.
So maybe the people who are dishing the orders should be the ones taking the stick, but somehow, I doubt it.
After all, there were the bombings etc and civil areas were valid targets.
Tender, I do agree that people do have the right to defend themselves, but considering that Iraq has gun laws similar to America, well, look how hard it is to disarm the USA, and consider Iraq has explosive weaponry to boot, some people will get busted, or killed just defending their homes and land, and indeed, most prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan probably were terribly unlucky.
But lets put it this way, as mentioned, if I was stupid enough to visit either of those countries, I would not expect to leave alive, after all, what would I do? There are some general hard-core terrorists probably mixed up in all this and one puny civvie like myself would only be another bag of flesh for consumption. Heck, cyanide tablets should be handed out to visitors.
At the end of the day, I'm only illiterating my views, but with a hint of inevitability of it, frankly, I am studying to be a scientist and I do not want to endanger my career by trying to go "commando" against the Coalition, it might have made the prisoners under the Patriot act and the Anti-terror acts more comfortable morally, but resistance is futile and frankly, I have no wish to visit Cuba. The fools, they want to make a difference, how about they just pop themselves and save someone else the trouble.
And at the end of the day, shit happens. They can and will sort this thing out, the governments that you voted in will act in what ever way they see fit. Somehow, I doubt they'll tremor in fear because Tender and Orcabomber are miffed at what they would call "illegal combatants".
Well, there's always Russia, France, China, Cuba, North Korea, Sudan... I'm expecting one of those might be hit next, and the pattern continues...
Tender: AH< NOW i get ya!
No offence here whatsoever, was just trying to figure you out.
Tender
No offence here whatsoever, was just trying to figure you out.
Tender
One of the military solutions to problems at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Afghanistan, or wherever is to outlaw the taking of pictures or videos of conditions in prisons. This almost sounds like abuse/torture is okay if it is not captured on film or digitally.
I think the Congress should enact legislation to protect and reward the graphic documentation of abuse/torture wherever it occurs and to protect and reward whistle blowers when they step forward...if military, then a double promotion and a 10-year review of whistle-blower, personnel actions to insure that they are not harrassed. Congress should authorize the International Commission of the Red Cross to take pictures of detainee abuse to support wrtitten reports. Officials in the Department of Defense and in the military testified they had no idea of the extent of the abuse/torture from reading the reports. huh? America and the world did not have this problem when the ICRC reports were released by the Washington Post. A gentle interpretation of the obfuscation would be someone failed to read the reports. A more agressive interpretation is . . .
jay
I think the Congress should enact legislation to protect and reward the graphic documentation of abuse/torture wherever it occurs and to protect and reward whistle blowers when they step forward...if military, then a double promotion and a 10-year review of whistle-blower, personnel actions to insure that they are not harrassed. Congress should authorize the International Commission of the Red Cross to take pictures of detainee abuse to support wrtitten reports. Officials in the Department of Defense and in the military testified they had no idea of the extent of the abuse/torture from reading the reports. huh? America and the world did not have this problem when the ICRC reports were released by the Washington Post. A gentle interpretation of the obfuscation would be someone failed to read the reports. A more agressive interpretation is . . .
jay
It wont happen.
After all, if I kill 100 people, but it isn't on TV, it never existed. Conveniant really, for "team evil" as well as "team good".
After all, if I kill 100 people, but it isn't on TV, it never existed. Conveniant really, for "team evil" as well as "team good".