alternative to circumcision

scottbud

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Wow this is the most frustrating thread I have ever read. As a RIC baby myself my opinion is still that religion is not part of this equation by my thoughts, and I appreciate others may not agree. Religion is not something you are born into it is a personal decission you make (when capable of making such descions) just like I fel circumsission should be. The fact that my parents allowed someont to strap me into a body restraignt and slice peice of my flesh off without any anesthetic amazes me they where meant to protect me and ave me from harm not inflict it on me. I am happy with the outcome of the circ as far as circs go mine could not have been a better job BUT I am not happy the the choice was taken from to have it done. I may be wrong but female circs where also done for religin and someone saw the logic in outlawing that practice why have they not seen the logic with boys? is it possibly that the most powerful country in the world has the highest circ rate and nobody inpower in other countries wants to offend them? Possibly. I think you would stire up alot of trouble if say New Zealand made Infant Circumcision Illegal (unless needed medicaly)

So I appreciate that some men are happy with being circed but I also think that if the desision was left for them that it probably would have been appreciated and it may have been a different outcome.

Plenty of religins have updted their practices to move with the change in their people for example (and it might be a bit weak) I thought sunday was they day of worship yet church in NZ now worship monday wednesday and friday also sometimes even at midnight. And this is just to accomodate that people work sundays now. I think if religion can bring themselves to accept this change within its people they could surely accept that they no longer want to put their bouncy baby boys through such devastation. I know that is a strong word but it so totally applies to how I feel about this being done to me.
 

simcha

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According to jewish law, yes. But there's no such thing as innate jewishness. It's simply a circular talmudic construct to discourage anyone from claiming they're not. It's a good example of the jewish guilt complex.

Since judaism doesn't evangelize nor has it had a history of forced conversion, it's been very important for the religion to make people believe that, once a jew, always a jew. It's just one more way of keeping people "in the club"

jew is not an ethnicity
it's not a nationality

what it is, is a religion
and a culture

And yet again, you are completely wrong. Why don't you keep talking about a religion you know something about? like Lutheranism. Jewishness is an ethnicity, a nationality, a religion, a people, and a culture. It's all of these things. Sorry Lutheranism and Christianity and Buddhism and Confusionism and Hinduism and Shintoism and Jainism and Islam and Wicca aren't all of these things and are only religions. But then again, none of them are Judaism.

You don't get to define Judaism. We Jews do.
 

scottbud

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I just found the bst post on another thread;

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHd

Meniscus and Witlof mentioned aesthetics and that's a big factor to me. To tie in with another interest of mine, cars, I'll call it a convertible. With top up it has one look; with the top down it has another. Two different appearances from one dick...

I get that. Whenever I buy a product, I'm drawn to the one that has the most features/options, the one that is most versatile. So I guess I'm the same way with men.

As for myself, I'm disappointed that one of my "factory installed" features was removed before I ever got a chance to try it out.
 

simcha

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B_dxjnorto

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Yeah, we all know about mohelet Greenbaum. Regurgitating obsolete medical "fact" penned by Not Playing With A Full Dick Edgar Schoen while he was head of the AAP's circumcision task force in the 80's I think it was.

I like my article a lot better than yours. See the poll and comments to the right of your article. Times is a changing sim. Let's thank God for that.
 

DC_DEEP

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And that is precisely why there isn't any real discourse here. Do you see what you are actually saying? You are saying that Jews have no right to practice their religion freely because they practice something that violates one of YOUR principals regarding human rights.
You keep insisting that this is an inviolable part of Judaism. Fine, I can accept that - IF - you also assert that Judaism as a faith and practice has NOT CHANGED since God renamed Abram as Abraham, and that you STRICTLY adhere to all the laws and mandates and covenants and requirements and restrictions set forth during the time of Abraham and the time of Moses. Do you?
 

Spermy

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I was cut at birth and I feel no anger toward anyone because of it. I don't remember any pain nor am I mentally scarred from the proceedure. I have very little scar tissue on my penis (you can barely see where I was cut) and it didn't turn dark like some I have seen. I don't know how the doctor did it but when I was cut he left most of the inside skin of my foreskin and removed the outer part. If I had a vivid scar it would be about half way down the shaft of my penis.
 

DC_DEEP

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You keep insisting that this is an inviolable part of Judaism. Fine, I can accept that - IF - you also assert that Judaism as a faith and practice has NOT CHANGED since God renamed Abram as Abraham, and that you STRICTLY adhere to all the laws and mandates and covenants and requirements and restrictions set forth during the time of Abraham and the time of Moses. Do you?
*bump*

I'm still waiting for simcha to respond to this...
 

TLCTugger

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Making it illegal, banning it, when it's a very central part of doing Judaism is anti-semitic.
You know, cut Muslims outnumber cut Jews by 50 to 1.

You know, FGM, which some Muslims consider part of their faith, is already illegal in US, Canada, UK, and about 95% of the planet.

I don't think anyone would question your right to do whatever you want in the name of faith, until it involves risky harmful cosmetic surgery on a non-consenting minor. Then it becomes everyone's business.
 

simcha

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What happened is that you all have your minds made up already and no one can tell you otherwise. It's not interesting or fun to keep arguing with you guys because no matter what I put up and no matter what kind of respect I show for your position, you simply don't show the same respect for my position or me. It's simply not worth my energy to keep arguing with people who don't respect my viewpoint or me. You write as if you all feel so self-righteous and no one can present anything that would elicit a respectful "live and let live" attitude from you.

I haven't written in this thread for so long because, really there isn't anything else to say to you guys, so there is no point in it. I know I respect your positions. I can tell that you have no respect for me or mine.

So, there are so many more interesting threads full of topics that interest me. And there are people who share on those threads that seem to appreciate what I have to share. I didn't join this site to argue about circumcision only. For a while it seemed like that was all I was doing, so I stopped. Another thread was talking about what LPSG stands for and some people where sharing that this forum used to be more fun and more of a support group in the past. I'm a very new member. I know that if I kept arguing with the people on this thread over this subject I'd start to get a skewed feeling that I was being disrespected and discounted in this community.

I have a life, and only so much free time. I work for a living. I have a nice guy who I'm dating. I have friends to be with. I like going outside to enjoy the world. I'd rather save my energy for these things instead of using it up arguing with people who have completely made up their minds that anyone who has the opposite opinion must be either crazy, stupid, evil, or insane. So, I've decided that the limited time I spend on LPSG would be best spent looking at other members' members, reading threads that interest me, and sharing when I have something to contribute.

So, most likely I'm not going to allow myself to be baited anymore by these circumcision threads and the anti-circ people who populate them. I've made a cogent and reasonable argument. I think that my comments speak for themselves. If anyone wants any other information about why my religious culture continues to practice infant circumcision, and is actually curious about it and doesn't have an agenda, these people can contact me through a private message. Otherwise people can read what I have written and explore other places where this information can be had.

I'm done with this thread.
 

DC_DEEP

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What happened is that you all have your minds made up already and no one can tell you otherwise. It's not interesting or fun to keep arguing with you guys because no matter what I put up and no matter what kind of respect I show for your position, you simply don't show the same respect for my position or me. It's simply not worth my energy to keep arguing with people who don't respect my viewpoint or me. You write as if you all feel so self-righteous and no one can present anything that would elicit a respectful "live and let live" attitude from you.
I asked a simple, honest, respectul question, and your only answer to me was to call me anti-semitic. I'm not sure how you can classify that as respectful.
I know I respect your positions. I can tell that you have no respect for me or mine.
Actually, no, you don't. You have no respect at all for anyone who has a non-judaism viewpoint. Notice, I didn't say "anti-judaism," I said "non-judaism." You have been quite clear about your anti-gentile agenda.
So, most likely I'm not going to allow myself to be baited anymore by these circumcision threads and the anti-circ people who populate them. I've made a cogent and reasonable argument.
No, you have not. My question was really quite simple: how have modern jews decided which commandments they keep and which are no longer valid?
I'm done with this thread.
That doesn't surprise me. I doubt that you would answer even a respectful, simple question via PM from me. That's fine, but the one thing I think it serves to do is illustrate that your statements do not stand up to logical questions, so you choose instead to denigrate the questioner, rather than address the question.
 

B_dxjnorto

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My best friend in high school was a secular Jew. While this doesn't qualify me on a Jewish perspective, what I have noticed is that Jewish people on the whole are very secular. About the only thing they CAN agree on is circumcision.

Circ is a tribal marking. Most of us wouldn't agree with scarification of the face of a child no matter how widely practiced it may be in some cultures still. Genitals are taboo, especially the genitals of children. Maybe the idea is to hide the tribal marking where it is not polite to see or talk about it. Then if anyone brings it up we say they are the perverts and the haters.

What I can't figure out is how did I end up with a tribal mark of a religion I don't belong to?